Is it Guardiola or is it his City squad?

[Gandalf Greyhame]

There are some managers who can take seemingly ordinary players and make them play very well as a team. SAF comes to mind straightaway. So do Klopp, Tuchel, Simeone.

I believed that Pep didn't fit into this definition. He needs some specific conditions to do well. But when those conditions are met, I believed he could produce results like no other manager can. I doubted if Mourinho or Ancelotti could have ever achieved with that Barcelona team what Pep did, especially the latter is failing to rise to similar standards in Bayern right now.

What we're seeing at City seems to go against my belief. He had Txiki moulding the club the way he wanted to, long before he came in. He brought in ball playing CB and GK, he has some top talents in KDB, Aguero, Sterling, Silva, Fernando, Fernandinho, Iheanacho, Otamendi. An almost unlimitied transfer budget, the lure of CL, freedom of control over the squad (Hart, Toure), and yet he is clearly struggling in the league. The conditions have been seemingly met, yet neither the performances nor the results are there.

There still seems to be mismatch between his idea of football, and the players he has to execute it. They are not performing anywhere close to expectations, given the resources, players, expectations. With Mourinho, you can clearly see an improvement in United's play, a sense of progress. With City, it's looking worse than under Pellegrini.

So what's the problem? Is Guardiola overrated? Is it the City squad? Do they require more time to gel together? What's going wrong over there?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Square pegs, round holes. A manager trying too hard to show how clever he is.

He's been shite has Pep.

 

[Scholesy]

Both, let's not forget they are still ahead of us in the table

 

[Classical Mechanic]

He isn't getting the best out of his players. De Brunye and Aguero look like pub players at the moment. Their is a total lack of confidence in the whole squad. I wonder if he is losing the dressing room.

Shame they don't have a leak to start the rumours.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Both, let's not forget they are still ahead of us in the table

With us, we were in a spot of serious bother after Moyes and LVG. Mourinho is clearly improving our results and performances, and you can sense us getting better.

City were expected to take the league by storm, especially after their flying start. Finishing 4th last season was an underachievement for Pellegrini, what does being fifth after 20-odd games indicate for Pep? Things are only getting worse for them.

 

[dichinero]

Tbh, that squad is shot and aging. Yaya and Zab as a midfield pairing will hardly yield results in the long run. The same way Jose needs to spend to get the squad up his standard is the same way Pep will as well.

The fact that they are still ahead of us is not something to be undermined.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

With us, we were in a spot of serious bother after Moyes and LVG. Mourinho is clearly improving our results and performances, and you can sense us getting better.

City were expected to take the league by storm, especially after their flying start. Finishing 4th last season was an underachievement for Pellegrini, what does being fifth after 20-odd games indicate for Pep? Things are only getting worse for them.

Indeed. They just got bummed by Everton. It reminded me of when Everton smashed us 3-0 when Moyes was in charge of us. There is something very wrong at City IMO.

 

[Sly]

It's clearly Pep. He needs to pick Fernando the octopus more often.

 

[Scholesy]

I don't think it's an under achievement, they have 3 great attackers, the rest of their side is messy.

Their squad isn't better than any of the other top 5

 

[Rozay]

It's the false philosopher.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Both, just don't think Pep's heart is in a good old fight, he's too used to bossing it, and the players just don't look bothered, sure they'll get better, but it's hardly the sexy one team show it was meant to be.

 

[prath92]

at barca he could play the same system every game because even if the teams kind of nullify the system, his team had the likes of messi, xavi, iniesta, ibra, henry etc. who are special enough to be a difference between winning and losing/draw and the players were also mostly well versed in the type of football he wanted to play. At Bayern similarly, he had difference makers and players intelligent enough to adapt any type of play (lahm,basti,alaba,neuer,boateng,lewandowski,robben etc.). So obviously he played a key role in success at these clubs but also was helped by the squads.

At city he has maybe one such player in KdB (stones and bravo are difference makers. for the opposition though) but others like Silva Yaya and Kun are getting older and not able to weave magic like before (if you want to give pep the benefit of the doubt. could well be that they are shit because of his system). Others like sterling, nolito and all arent gonna change the game on their own. If you play the same system vs leicester and arsenal (two teams with completely different style of play) without any big players that could make a difference (like costa or zlatan), then you are asking for trouble.

thats what is happening here imo.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Quite a few things for me, Pep has underestimated the strength and difficulty of PL and overestimated the quality of his squad, their defence is no where near good enough, Sagna/Clichy are past it, Zabaleta in midfield is never going to work, Toure is not interested 90% of the time, Silva has dropped his productivity and Aguero isn't happy. The only player I'd take from them this year is De Bruyne, even today he was whipping in some quality crosses.

It's going to take him a few summer Windows to fix the deficiencies in that squad and getting into the top 4 is going to very difficult for them now.

I've always felt he's been slight over rated and now he has to stand up and work with what he's got which is half a team at best.

 

[Ban]

City squad is not that good as it's claimed to be.

Also Pep is not that good. He is a very good manager granted but not as good as he's been portrayed. Revolutionary, visionary, artist, that sort of bollocks.

 

[pacifictheme]

Square pegs, round holes. A manager trying too hard to show how clever he is.

He's been shite has Pep.

2 points above us though...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

at barca he could play the same system every game because even if the teams kind of nullify the system, his team had the likes of messi, xavi, iniesta, ibra, henry etc. who are special enough to be a difference between winning and losing/draw and the players were also mostly well versed in the type of football he wanted to play. At Bayern similarly, he had difference makers and players intelligent enough to adapt any type of play (lahm,basti,alaba,neuer,boateng,lewandowski,robben etc.). So obviously he played a key role in success at these clubs but also was helped by the squads.

At city he has maybe one such player in KdB (stones and bravo are difference makers. for the opposition though) but others like Silva Yaya and Kun are getting older and not able to weave magic like before (if you want to give pep the benefit of the doubt. could well be that they are shit because of his system). Others like sterling, nolito and all arent gonna change the game on their own. If you play the same system vs leicester and arsenal (two teams with completely different style of play) without any big players that could make a difference (like costa or zlatan), then you are asking for trouble.

thats what is happening here imo.

Aguero is 28 and scored 11 in their first 6 matches this season. Their whole team was on fire for a while. How dud they get those results if they are so bad?

Pep is failing to motivate his players through adversity if you ask me.

 

[Hammerfell]

2 points above us though...

See his second post.

 

[prath92]

Aguero is 28 and scored 11 in their first 6 matches this season. Their whole team was on fire for a while. How dud they get those results if they are so bad?

Pep is failing to motivate his players through adversity if you ask me.

thats why I added "if you want to give pep the benefit of the doubt"

 

[Classical Mechanic]

thats why I added "if you want to give pep the benefit of the doubt"

Fair enough. I don't though!

 

[sullydnl]

Squad has weaknesses but Pep is guilty of not getting the basics right. The way he's used Aguero is bizarre, for example.

 

[redmeister]

The Celtic, PSG or Juve jobs were much more suitable for him or at a push he could have tried his luck at Zenit. Taking the City job suggests he wasn't in on his own scam. But at the same time he would never have tried to prove himself at a club like Everton, which suggests he's not completely delusional.

 

[elnorte]

The Celtic, PSG or Juve jobs were much more suitable for him or at a push he could have tried his luck at Zenit. Taking the City job suggests he wasn't in on his own scam. But at the same time he would never have tried to prove himself at a club like Everton, which suggests he's not completely delusional.

Huh?

 

[MounchesterUtd]

I've always felt that the blazing start they had at the beginning of the season was a purple patch, though I didn't expect things will be this bad for them. Great managers need great players, that is a given. SAF, Simeone and Klopp to some extent are outliers. I think now more than ever, we're seeing that pragmatism is THE philosophy that rules the PL, not anything else.

 

[Super Chops]

Everton fan here. Watching City today they looked uncannily like we did under Martinez a lot of times. Labouring to bring the ball through midfield, being vulnerable to quick balls over the top and counterattacks, no defensive cohesiveness which makes individual mistakes stand out, lots of final 3rd possession but no end product, conceding goals from nearly every shot on target. It's all very familiar to me - no coincidence, I suppose, that Martinez and Guardiola share a similar footballing philosophy.

 

[JG3001]

Kinda both to blame, Pep won't admit it but he did benefit significantly from having two of the best squads in the world at Bayern and Barca, that's not to say he isn't a good manager.

Are people really that surprised though, this kind of mid season slump has been a common theme for a number of seasons with City:

- They seem incredibly difficult to keep motivated, been evident when they have attempted, and failed to retain the PL

- They still seem to have this belief that when they play certain bottom half teams they have a divine right to win, and don't put the effort in, which has come back to bite them in the arse many times

- Their best players are getting old now

- Their younger players, on the whole, aren't good enough

- I know it gets thrown around a lot, but mercenaries does come to mind. Big paydays, plus the fact their better players (which ties into the aging aspect) have already won the PL, seems to add up to 'Not really that bothered anymore'

 

[Jazz]

I think it's a bit of both.

I don't think he underestimated how tough our league is - he's far too organised not to have taken this into consideration - however, I think may have overestimated his team, not so much in ability (most of them are fine imo bar the defence) but perhaps their mentality.

 

[ShoePolish]

I feel he's just gonna get all the top players he wants/needs with the unlimited transfer kitty and will still make it here. Sure LvG proved already that this style doesn't work, but LvG bought potatoes, I expect baldy to be more shrewd and inteligent in that aspect.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I feel he's just gonna get all the top players he wants/needs with the unlimited transfer kitty and will still make it here. Sure LvG proved already that this style doesn't work, but LvG bought potatoes, I expect baldy to be more shrewd and inteligent in that aspect.

Baldy has a lot more sex appeal than LVG, he will attract bigger players.

 

[lifted]

A good summer window will get them on the right track. The problem is that they haven't had a good summer window for a while.

 

[Cal?]

It's their terrible transfers:

Today, Milner scored against us, Barry dominated in midfield against them, and Jovetic just scored a winner against RM.

 

[redmeister]

Huh?

Brenton had them 19 points clear at the top. It's the kind of job anyone can win the league with.

 

[Attila]

I feel he's just gonna get all the top players he wants/needs with the unlimited transfer kitty and will still make it here. Sure LvG proved already that this style doesn't work, but LvG bought potatoes, I expect baldy to be more shrewd and inteligent in that aspect.

His signings have been shit so far. £70m on Bravo and Stones

 

[Nanotron]

I think he has underestimated the league. It's a real battle and you have to be able to mix it up and win ugly at times. Arsenal are the perfect example of this. I also don't get his obsession of playing rb's in centre midfield.

I hope his ego continues to get in his way of mixing things up and keeping it simple.

 

[Red_Aaron]

It's a bit of both of course

Since the blistering start stopped he's massively over complicated things and his players look confused at times, some of his comments make me think he feels they're not good enough

The squad issue is partly because theyre overrated, the likes of sterling, navas, nolito have never been all that. But also his alterations to it. Getting rid of Hart is all well and good as he's not as good as he thinks he is but replacing him with bravo who himself is a 2nd tier keeper and not suited to the league was silly. Likewise not moving toure on in the summer was a mistake imo he's a powerful figure in that squad and given he was frozen out for the majority of the season I've no doubt he was undermining him on the sly now he's been allowed back in it only strengthens his influence and undermines pep further imo

 

[Damien]

He's spent €200m and there's not really one transfer you can say has done well so far (of course, Jesus is still to play and Gundogan did okay but is currently out injured). If anything he's made the squad worse in some respects with Bravo doing worse than Hart would have done.

 

[caid]

Both,
He doesn't have the squad to play the football he would traditionally but should have adjusted and come up with an alternative by now.

Most changes hes made to the side from last season have been utter failures tbh, hes definitely not blameless

 

[padr81]

Pep needs a certain type of player unlike say klopp because of the demands of his tactics. We don't have it especially in the back 5. We can do it to an extent and when we're flying but not without. The biggest problem is our squad is mentally weak. Chelsea can bounce back as can you guys. Liverpool and Spurs. Arsenal can take a couple of games to but we just mentally collapse when we don't feel invincible or go behind. It was clear in pellers last 2 seasons and again since November. We've always been the 10 good games 4 or 4 poor ones. We now have no leaders in the team without kompany. Aguero, silva and kdb are good players but don't strike me as the type to motivate a poor dressing room. Zabaleta gives everything on the pitch but is too quiet off it. We need steel and have none. Lots of good players but we need our Keane, Vieira, Gerrard not in terms of playing style but in terms of handing out beatings in the dressing room. I imagine our dressing room today was far quieter than say Uniteds, Chelsea or Liverpools would have be after such a result.

 

[MounchesterUtd]

It's their terrible transfers:

Today, Milner scored against us, Barry dominated in midfield against them, and Jovetic just scored a winner against RM.

I actually wonder what could've been if they didn't chuck out the previous regime just to get the ex Barca guys in. Maybe Pep wouldn't have signed for them (as I believe Txiki was a big part of recruiting him), but at least the old guys knew what they were doing and could've rebuilt this team by now. Hand over the reigns to an Emery and you've got a team ready to contend for trophies.

 

[ZAGREB RED]

Probably a bit of both, I don't think he really knew what he was getting into coming to England, and the way he is asking the City players to play isn't working at the moment. They looked like they would blow everyone away at the start of the season and even if they lost a couple of goals they could outscore the opposition, but today's showing at Everton was abysmal. They were taken apart.
I wonder how long he will hang around, looked totally lost on the sidelines today.

 

[ShoePolish]

His signings have been shit so far. £70m on Bravo and Stones

Their start to the season didn't really flag up any flaws they would have later in the season. I expect him to adress them after the season and have a major summer, hopefully it will be derailed by their absence from CL next season.