He treats it like a hot potato because he isn't that smart a player.
Is it sensible to carry on with Bruno as the focal point of our team next season?
- Thread starter Bastian
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How many times do we need to have this same thread under a slightly different title?
Its sensible until/unless we find someone better. Currently our alternative options are an injured Mason Mount or Scott McTominay.
We also have Lindelof playing at left back, Johnny Evans appearing regularly at centreback, a patched together midfield which ceases to exist after 20 minutes of most games, and an attack that is completely reliant on a teenager and one striker who is only just not a teenager. So would suggest this shouldn't be our main priority to sort out
Its sensible until/unless we find someone better. Currently our alternative options are an injured Mason Mount or Scott McTominay.
We also have Lindelof playing at left back, Johnny Evans appearing regularly at centreback, a patched together midfield which ceases to exist after 20 minutes of most games, and an attack that is completely reliant on a teenager and one striker who is only just not a teenager. So would suggest this shouldn't be our main priority to sort out
please pin this. Nailed it.
Definitely be looking to phase him out next season.
I highly doubt that the club will be looking to move on Bruno in the summer. If a good offer comes in for him and he wants to leave then by all means but it’s probably not going to happen.
If Bruno was to lose his place, it’s more likely that another no. 8 or 10 pushes him out of the team.
In the mean time, funds will still be limited and better spent on other areas of the pitch.
If Bruno was to lose his place, it’s more likely that another no. 8 or 10 pushes him out of the team.
In the mean time, funds will still be limited and better spent on other areas of the pitch.
I mean the OP is more speaking broadly about the future going forward, not our lineup next weekend. Not sure why you’re citing short term injury issues (and our midfield is literally all first choice players right now).
He made him captain, he always plays him, never subs him, and he has never criticized him.
in a system where you have 2 DMs, 2 wingers and a CF where Bruno gets freedom to go forward I think it can work.
I don't think Bruno works in a possession team though.
I don't think Bruno works in a possession team though.
Yes, essentially OleBall which is why those were his most successful seasons. Free license to roam wherever in front of 2 DM’s, no real structure to adhere to, and a team constantly willing to play in transition.
Was the obvious captain for anybody.
Again, who will play instead of him? And who would sub on for him?
The last point doesn't need any addressing.
It’s something that needs looking at but I doubt there will be the funds to put people in place to move away from this style that has a dependency on him in one window.
Probably best to keep him a bit longer and slowly phase him out as Mainoo improves and hopefully bring in 2 or 3 to replace those that need replacing in midfield.
Probably best to keep him a bit longer and slowly phase him out as Mainoo improves and hopefully bring in 2 or 3 to replace those that need replacing in midfield.
I'm not talking about our line up next weekend. We can't sign anyone until the summer, and then we have limited funds and multiple other areas of the pitch that more urgently need addressing. Basically, every other area of the pitch needs addressing more than Bruno's position. He is literally the only established first team player who stays fit, apart from Rashford who sometimes sulks for 6 months for no apparent reason.
Our midfield is all first choice players and it includes an 18 year old and still gets overrun by every opponent, and ETH still insists on leaving Casemiro on his own there...and as soon as Casemiro or Mainoo get injured the immediate replacement is a loaned who isn't good enough or a player we tried to sell to West Ham.
I would maybe leave worrying about "phasing out" Bruno (since when is this even a thing teams do?) until we address the areas where we're constantly 1 injury away from looking like a lower mid table side
Thread.
Over.
1. Bruno can be sold for more than a decent fee quite easily. It’s not like we’d be cutting into our summer budget to replace him.
2. Much of what causes us to get overrun is a combination of tactics and Bruno/Casemiro treating the ball like a hand grenade. It’s not like he’s holding the midfield together on his own, in fact quite often he’s the one damaging it in regards to battling another teams midfield. But like it or not he’s a focal point of the team and has been since we signed him. You aren’t magically going to see different results/performances while he’s still the main man, so no I wouldn’t say we have “every other position is more of a priority” right now.
3. Teams “phase” players out all the time? fecking Pep did it with essentially of of City’s “legends” of the past 15 years quite easily. Not sure why you think that’s some foreign concept.
We quite obviously have a few areas that need addressing. Absolutely. However, it still a question of trajectory. Do we continue to use him with all the pros and cons as the focal point of our style of play or do we try to implement a style of play that might get a lot more out of the collective. In your words he's the only established first team player who stays fit alongside Rashford. Is that a reason to keep him as the focal point? Mind, it means the whole team's development is then limited to that particular style of play.
I know I'm in the minority here when I favour long-term development even if it's at the cost of short-term success (and performances to begin with). But I said before last season that I'd have preferred gutting the squad and building a team capable of something resembling ETH's Ajax side eventually, reducing expectations momentarily and then adding to a young squad as we go along. I'm still of the same opinion. I'd gut the squad this summer. I doubt Erik is there, but maybe INEOS will support him to get there, so it's not the constantly "good is not good enough, we are Man United and we have to win every game" line. I get that he is trying to foster a culture of accountability and professionalism, but it's not worked with this group of players and this rhetoric is not working at all. I'm not saying he should be all Postecoglu about it and smile and be all positive about everything, just not invoke so much unneeded pressure. That would be easier if we actually and very obviously started a long-term project. And if players are shipped out that will signal that intent. I digress..
I think not going with Bruno as a starter next season (and yes, it's unlikely that he could be morphed into squad player, so I'd take the hit and sell him now if that's the alternative to having everything go through him) will allow the team to actually start developing as a progressive side. The players we all know are not good enough also need to be shipped out. Next season is too early to really challenge for the title, but the season after that won't be if we start building now. If we continue with the team we have now and add 2-3 players to it, I still think our style of play will be haphazard and completely down to the form of individual players.
p.s. I'm mainly picking out your posts to respond to because they get so many "this right here" "end thread" fanfare. But plenty of good posts in here.
End of next season yeah possibly. But we’d need to see Mount more, see how the side develops in the next 18 months.
@noodlehair has made some great points. Even if we accept Bruno isn’t the long term solution he’s also not the biggest problem and right now we need better profiles in our CB, DM and CM zones. Arguably also a LB and RB (although I think Dalot can make this position his own).
@noodlehair has made some great points. Even if we accept Bruno isn’t the long term solution he’s also not the biggest problem and right now we need better profiles in our CB, DM and CM zones. Arguably also a LB and RB (although I think Dalot can make this position his own).
This is a really interesting and quite effective caption. And sum up why, in my opinion, he was unsuitable to be Captain, and why we should look to move him on this summer. He's an inconsiderate player, frequently irresponsible, with a petulant approach who plays his own game. Bruno (and Man Utd) need players around him, brave enough to put him in his place. We don't have players with that character.I dont think he is smart. He thinks about goals way too much to be considered smart.
Look at this from yesterday, The Manchester Evening News pointed out SEVEN different/safer options he could have taken at this moment and yet he thought he could shoot from here.
What I saw was a player who lost his head after the 1st 15 mins. He was clearly peeved with the selfishness and lack of quality in the final pass during the attacking phase, which squandered great opportunities and oftentimes led to dangerous transitions for Luton, and everything crumbled after that. He wasn't the only one though.I dont think he is smart. He thinks about goals way too much to be considered smart.
Look at this from yesterday, The Manchester Evening News pointed out SEVEN different/safer options he could have taken at this moment and yet he thought he could shoot from here.
This team needs some trust-building exercises and the forwards especially need to play for one another more.
This discussion makes me think of United replacing Ruud with Saha. Ruud is probably the best out and out striker I’ve ever seen at United and was truly world class.
But he needed to be the focal point, wanting every attack to end with a shot for him and all he wanted to do was score goals. United were a far better team with Saha.
But he needed to be the focal point, wanting every attack to end with a shot for him and all he wanted to do was score goals. United were a far better team with Saha.
Would be interesting to see a fully fit Mount alongside Kobbie and Case.
Always felt this was a little mythical. The year Saha became focal/replaced Ruud coincided with us signing Michael Carrick. Also coincided with Vidic and Evra settling and Rooney and Ronaldo taking their game to another level. I think we look back at Sahas career and influence far better than the actual reality was. Seemingly forgetting the above mentioned five players. I find it kinda mad that so many people say we were so much better with a player who basically was only fit for half of a season.
I think Bruno can function well as part of a different system (i.e., possession based). He's got the technical ability and he seems to be a player who's willing to adjust his game for the benefit of the team.
While he's still currently the chief creative outlet for the team, he's not as much of a focal point of the attack as he was when Ole was here (had a quick look at he has less shots and passes per game this year in the league vs. his first full season). I would argue he's already taken a bit more of a back seat vs. before.
I also wonder if his playstyle of high-risk high-reward with all the killer balls he play is also a byproduct of our playstyle instilled by the managers who managed him at Utd. Under Ole we were a counter-attacking team. Didn't really change much under Ragnick and now EtH. They players around him are not really possession based players as well. For example Rashford, probably his main attacking outlet during his Utd time, is generally most effective on the break running in behind the line.
I also think he's lost his legs a little bit in the past year. He still works extremely hard for the team (at times to make up for some of our attacker's lack of workrate). If anything he may function better in a more controlled system
I guess what I'm trying to say is, for me he can still be a important cog in a well functioning system.
While he's still currently the chief creative outlet for the team, he's not as much of a focal point of the attack as he was when Ole was here (had a quick look at he has less shots and passes per game this year in the league vs. his first full season). I would argue he's already taken a bit more of a back seat vs. before.
I also wonder if his playstyle of high-risk high-reward with all the killer balls he play is also a byproduct of our playstyle instilled by the managers who managed him at Utd. Under Ole we were a counter-attacking team. Didn't really change much under Ragnick and now EtH. They players around him are not really possession based players as well. For example Rashford, probably his main attacking outlet during his Utd time, is generally most effective on the break running in behind the line.
I also think he's lost his legs a little bit in the past year. He still works extremely hard for the team (at times to make up for some of our attacker's lack of workrate). If anything he may function better in a more controlled system
I guess what I'm trying to say is, for me he can still be a important cog in a well functioning system.
For those that think the team might be better without him, I'd be inclined to agree we might not turnover possession as often with a "safe player" in there, but I can almost guarantee we'd be complaining about not scoring or creating chances.
Mount didn't do anything at Chelsea that makes me think he'd be better than Bruno there. Thought he was going to be signed as a bit of a quality utility player to be honest, he's always injured anyway which is the opposite of Bruno.
As I and others have said before in this and other threads, it's going to take a lot of money to bring in someone that's a genuine upgrade on him, if we can even get them, as other clubs currently in a better position than us are usually interested in the players that would be good enough.
Mount didn't do anything at Chelsea that makes me think he'd be better than Bruno there. Thought he was going to be signed as a bit of a quality utility player to be honest, he's always injured anyway which is the opposite of Bruno.
As I and others have said before in this and other threads, it's going to take a lot of money to bring in someone that's a genuine upgrade on him, if we can even get them, as other clubs currently in a better position than us are usually interested in the players that would be good enough.
You might be surprised to know that Two of United's lowest scoring seasons in PL Post Sir Alex's Retirement has come with Bruno as our creator in Chief I think United will survive just fine .
We will change managers, goal keepers, defenders, wingers, strikers but we will remain the same team that played in 2020..
We played De Gea, now we have Onana same problems persist. Leaking goals and conceding chances.
Bought Martinez and Varane binned Maguire and Lindelof we still leaked 43 goals last seasons, as of today we have leaked 34 goals in PL with 13 games remaining.
We binned off McFred and bought Casemiro, Eriksen last season we were 4th in possession % in the league.
We binned off Martial, Cavani etc bought Hojlund we still won't score more than 60 goals this season.
We finished last season with +15 GD, we are at +1 today.
We moved away from wingers like Dan James, Greenwood to Antony, Garnacho but still we don't score enough and our wingers don't have sustained period of elite output..
There is no different profile we need to achieve anything, that's unknown.
What we need is a sustainable way of playing which can be upgraded and scaled-up.
Our set-up is unsustainable and unscale-able.
That's why since 2019 Ole times, there is absolutely nothing different has happened. We still collapse in games, average 70 points a season, never control games, never been in champions league QF since 2019, never had more than 74 points in the league. Eliminated in CL group stage twice..
How many different kind of profile have we signed since 2019,how much money have we spent since Ole took over to date?
How comes nothing big has changed?
We need to move away from playing transition football. Zero control football.
Nothing amplifies transition football more than Bruno. The only thing ETH was supposed to do was to move away from this kind of football but alas, he's made it his own.
Let me tell you a sustainable way of playing which is scale-able, Arsenal way.
Arsenal need a proven striker and their team will be almost complete why? not because they are rich than United, or United is cursed.. Noo, it's because Arsenal found a sustainable way of playing then they scale it up every season every other window. Bit by bit.
For us now, ask around, even in this forum, only Hojlund, Mainoo, Garnacho, Martinez we can all agree should stay at this club. At least 95% of fans can agree on this.
Every other player from Antony, Casemiro, Varane, Maguire, Rashford, Bruno, Eriksen, Dalot, Onana, Shaw there is another group of fans who wouldn't mind if they left. ask yourself why?
Because our team is fundamentally flawed, it lacks
1. Principled way of playing.
2. Players capable of playing in that principled way.
As bad as it may, lack of a genuine Football Director has brought the wild chase but our manager should have solved this problem if he was Elite.
Pep can't stick with Bruno a player who loses the ball is such a way and it that frequency and offers absolutely nothing major in return. It doesn't need $1B of players to solve that problem nor $400m ETH has spent.
This is supported by the fact, we have spent over 800m since Mourinho left yet we have never achieved anything close to 80 points in any season, won only 1 Carabao Cup in 7 years, eliminated in CL group stage TWICE (Ole once and ETH ), Ole brought us Bruno our style of play changed and we have stuck to it to date. Yet it's not achieving anything substantial
Upshot:
We need to move away from being a transition team.
Nothing is more of an embodiment of transition football than Bruno Fernandes.
I have talked about this for the last 2 years now, and everything has persisted as they were in 2021, nothing will change as long as we play transition football.
We scored 58 goals last season. In 38 games.
Already this season at 25 game week, Arsenal and Liverpool are 58+
City are 57 goals at 24 games.
In short, the teams we want to compete against, have already scored more than the amount of goals we scored the whole of last season
with 13 games less. That's a 1/3 of the campaign.We play transition football which we score very little goals from yet leak too many goals while having 4th best possession % but people never see how bad it is.
We played better with Saha, I remember it very well. It’s not that unusual for teams to be better when superstar type players move on.
You know what's the most fascinating part is Bruno has never been that good to actually evoke this cult like following but on second thought it's seems like par for course for some section of United's fanbase .We scored 58 goals last season. In 38 games.
Already this season at 25 game week, Arsenal and Liverpool are 58+
City are 57 goals at 24 games.
In short, the teams we want to compete against, have already scored more than the amount of goals we scored the whole of last season
We play transition football which we score very little goals from yet leak too many goals while having 4th best possession % but people never see how bad it is.
I hate this bullshit transition shite that we've been playing since Ole and Bruno is a massive reason why we play that way. I can see him being here next season but not longer than that.
Mainoo, the 18 year old, gesturing to the captain for the pass and presumably a chance to manage the game. It's quite damning on Bruno, that.I dont think he is smart. He thinks about goals way too much to be considered smart.
Look at this from yesterday, The Manchester Evening News pointed out SEVEN different/safer options he could have taken at this moment and yet he thought he could shoot from here.
This is so spot on, nothing else really needs to be said.
I’m not sure why I’ve been quoted for this?
I think Bruno will need to move on but I just don’t see it happening this summer.
We also need to remember we’re 1 1/2 years into Ten Hag’s reign where significant squad changes with a medium to long term approach haven’t happened yet.
You need different profiles of players to play a more sustainable system.
I don’t think Bruno has that profile but I also don’t think we’ll be able to sell him next summer and therefore make that kind of change to our way of playing.
So we’re ironically going to be in a period of transition now.
Nothing about the absolute sitters we have missed this season which would have meant a lot more points accumulated.
I wonder who created most off those chances?
This Bruno Fernandes bashing is beyond belief.
We don’t score enough, Bruno.
We concede too many, Bruno.
Without our most influential player since he arrived, we would be fighting relegation every season.
He has the stats to prove it but that’s not good enough for so called experts on here.
Depressing.
Yes. He isn't the problem. Rashford and our mostly selfish wingers are. Plus our lack of depth in deep midfield outside of Casemiro and Mainoo, and at Left center half and lcfg back.
His output has been on the wane since Klopp had his say on penalties. His performances have been consistently poor since the season Ronaldo signed, and inconsistent the second half of the season prior.
Pre-Klopps outburst
Non pen goal every 415 mins
Assist every 348 mins.
Post-Klopps outburst
Non pen goal every 478 mins
Assists every 453 mins.
Maybe he’s a confidence player and drew confidence from the amount of penalties he was afforded. Whatever the case his performances have been poor for way too long and his output is waning significantly. We need to look to move in a different direction as a team so a near 30 year old, who’s in decline and is on,y suited to transition football, is not someone we should be hanging on to.
Pre-Klopps outburst
Non pen goal every 415 mins
Assist every 348 mins.
Post-Klopps outburst
Non pen goal every 478 mins
Assists every 453 mins.
Maybe he’s a confidence player and drew confidence from the amount of penalties he was afforded. Whatever the case his performances have been poor for way too long and his output is waning significantly. We need to look to move in a different direction as a team so a near 30 year old, who’s in decline and is on,y suited to transition football, is not someone we should be hanging on to.
The problem is, I don’t think we’re finding anyone els with Bruno’s numbers. He creates more than De Bruyne. We just don’t finish them off. We need him back to his first season form… other priorities in the squad… the wingers being to selfish is a problem. When someone’s open in the box we never pass, shooting is always first with some players. Less selfish wingers who are creative and we’ll score a lot more goals.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/02/bruno-fernandes-manchester-united-city-preview
Bruno Fernandes naysayers overlook just how important he is for United
The captain is often maligned for his on-field antics but would Roy Keane be any different with this team around him?
Bruno Fernandes is Manchester United’s 2020s version of Roy Keane: vocal, aggressive, fiercely competitive, highly talented and deemed by his manager to be the obvious captain. The Portuguese is all these things, especially in a United vintage that is among the weakest of the post-Sir Alex Ferguson era.
If Ferguson viewed Keane as his alpha male, the Irishman was surrounded by stellar acts in Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, David Beckham, Jaap Stam and numerous others. At different times, all had an argument for being the Premier League’s best player in their position. Fernandes does not enjoy the same supporting A-list cast. In a team game he looks around the pitch each week and sees maybe only Luke Shaw and Lisandro Martínez, when they are fit, who are his equal.
[...]
Bruno Fernandes naysayers overlook just how important he is for United
The captain is often maligned for his on-field antics but would Roy Keane be any different with this team around him?
Bruno Fernandes is Manchester United’s 2020s version of Roy Keane: vocal, aggressive, fiercely competitive, highly talented and deemed by his manager to be the obvious captain. The Portuguese is all these things, especially in a United vintage that is among the weakest of the post-Sir Alex Ferguson era.
If Ferguson viewed Keane as his alpha male, the Irishman was surrounded by stellar acts in Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, David Beckham, Jaap Stam and numerous others. At different times, all had an argument for being the Premier League’s best player in their position. Fernandes does not enjoy the same supporting A-list cast. In a team game he looks around the pitch each week and sees maybe only Luke Shaw and Lisandro Martínez, when they are fit, who are his equal.
[...]
Yes we should, probably. He is always available, plays every minute, never injured, creates the most chances in the league, and playing with a random lineup every week. Half the time this season he’s played in front of 4th choice players, sometimes with players who have no ability in a makeshift role. Bruno’s 30 is like another player at 26. He’s got several years at the top left in him.
1.Would Roy Keane be any different? I never saw Roy Keane have a bad game for us.
2.Sorry but Varane and Casemiro are players of a lesser level than Bruno? Mainoo, Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho aren’t fit to play on the same side as him? Varane and Casemiro played with Modric, Kroos, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema and have to look at Bruno spamming balls. The youngsters get to watch Bruno play terribly week in week out and blame everyone else.
Keane led by example on the pitch then demanded the same standards. Bruno is watching kids like Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho survive despite his performances, outstrip his performances week in week out and win matches for us whilst he continues his three year spell of ‘poor form’.
It’s doing Keane a massive disservice to suggest he’d be Bruno in this story.
No, he should be what he would be at any top club, part of a squad. Him starting every game and playing the full 90+ minutes of them has been part of the problem. He’s knackered. He’s not fresh in the slightest. He’d be very useful sometimes coming on in the 70th minute with loads of energy and the eye for goal he has but instead we just rinse him game after game and allow him to play through injuries.