He's been as ineffective as Lingard this season especially on the end product side, which we can't afford to be lacking if we want to be at the top. He always had his physical disadvantages of being short and weak and slow but made up for them with vision and technique but now he seems to lack even those and his stamina has gone so he becomes an auto-substitution every game. I think he's on the decline and his peak was a while ago. This could be a severe decline when you consider his starting physical point was already disadvantaged. We need to learn from Rooney and replace him with a younger player reaching their peak. Such a shame we didn't get Griezmann--the gulf between them just isn't funny. Mata might be adorable, and he's been good for us, but you can't fight time and we need to fight for the title. I'd be surprised if this isn't his last season for us.
Is Mata past his best?
- Thread starter OohAahMartial
- Start date
Mata's peak was never good enough to win the league in this country; his ball retention and physical presence are lacking for a no.10.
He's been in the team of year, was Chelsea's player of the year twice, won loads of trophies, played for Span 40 times. Not as slick as some 10s, but always decisive in the final third. Past his very best, but of course he could have been in a team that won the league. Bad game today, follows that he must be shit, and must have always been shit.
Yes
Has he ever been as good for United as he has been for Chelsea? Mata had some moments for us with goals against Liverpool and such but from what i can remember from the "Chelsea Mata" is that he was a better and more dangerous player. Like you said he won their player of the season award twice.. he isnt going to win that here and it wasnt like Chelsea only had bad players..
Maybe he is past it because he never reached that Chelsea form but it doesnt make him a bad player. Maybe he wasnt even that great for Chelsea but i only remember his good moments.. his most memorable Chelsea moment for me is that free kick which de Gea saved anyway.
However if we could replace him with Ozil/Griezzman/world class right winger i woudnt complain if he left.
No. We were just shite today. I would have left him on the pitch and replaced Lingard instead.
No, but his best is not good enough as a #10, and definitely not on the right.
He joined United in extremely difficult moment for the club, going through the hell of Moyes & LvG era, trying to integrate as soon as possible to make impact which at some point he did, but his teammates were changing every year due to clusterfeck caused by LvG's decision making on the market and failing to adapt players like Falcao, Di Maria etc. Perhaps for some Mata's time here seems chaotic, because the whole team was unbalanced and at some point it's still under construction in some areas.
Past his best ? Not so sure about it just yet, he was never a rapid or strong but his decision making and eye for technical pass or shot was always on a required level.
I expect him to link perfectly with Pogba and Zlatan when they'll return. He's closer to their level rather than Lingardinho. Perhaps Jose should use him more in CL games rather than against physical football merchants of the PL.
Past his best ? Not so sure about it just yet, he was never a rapid or strong but his decision making and eye for technical pass or shot was always on a required level.
I expect him to link perfectly with Pogba and Zlatan when they'll return. He's closer to their level rather than Lingardinho. Perhaps Jose should use him more in CL games rather than against physical football merchants of the PL.
The problem lies in the fact that we have a bunch of mediocre players in the team that can be good on some days but then there are days when individual brilliance is required to lift the team up, they got MIA. Some of the examples include Lingard, Mata, Herrera, Smalling, Lindelof (showing signs of mediocrity) as well as Mhikitaryan (Since his initial burst in the first 4 games or so, he's been pretty crappy)
He’s clearly not as bad as the usual post poor game knee jerk crowd claim, but he’s on the decline, yes. He’s generally not been bad (this game aside) but he’s not had much of a highlight reel either. He’s had his poorest start to a season in his time here. He’s still a great squad player to have, but if he stays beyond this season he should be phased out of the starting XI.
I’d still rather have him ahead of Mikhi atm, if only for his ability to draw fouls in tight situations rather than just outright lose the ball... present context notwithstanding.
I’d still rather have him ahead of Mikhi atm, if only for his ability to draw fouls in tight situations rather than just outright lose the ball... present context notwithstanding.
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He has been past his peak some season ago not now anyway. His peak was at Chelsea, but he was still a good player here.
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He never reached his best at United.
True. He is not suited to play on the right and he lacks the athletcism to be a top player in the PL. Hopefully we can get Özil in January and I would prefer to play Rashford in some games until then.
You slot Mata into a functional team as a cunning supplementary player; we've not been a functional team in his entire tenure at the club, which is why he cannot hit the heights he did at Chelsea here.
Mata's greatest assets are: ghosting into goalscoring positions, finishing and edge of the box combination play. Ask yourself how many times those platforms have been provided for him to exploit and you get a better picture of why he looks so lacklustre in the roles we have given him.
This thing about him being slow and weak would not be a factor if he was utilised correctly because knocking him off the ball close to the box (in or out of it) would always be a gamble for the opposing side to take - from the tactical perspective we take up pushing him further back, where even if you foul him, it's in non-threatening positions, is so counter-productive that he looks like half the player he still is.
To answer the question: he is not past his best, no, but he is being poorly deployed and the conditions he needs to thrived are not being provided.
Mata's greatest assets are: ghosting into goalscoring positions, finishing and edge of the box combination play. Ask yourself how many times those platforms have been provided for him to exploit and you get a better picture of why he looks so lacklustre in the roles we have given him.
This thing about him being slow and weak would not be a factor if he was utilised correctly because knocking him off the ball close to the box (in or out of it) would always be a gamble for the opposing side to take - from the tactical perspective we take up pushing him further back, where even if you foul him, it's in non-threatening positions, is so counter-productive that he looks like half the player he still is.
To answer the question: he is not past his best, no, but he is being poorly deployed and the conditions he needs to thrived are not being provided.
Surprised by this thread. I thought it had been obvious throughout his United career that Mata's best level was at Chelsea.
I suppose the natural question is that how on Earth are we still not a functional team?
Yeah he's not the right player for us at the minute. We need ruthless game changers wherever they are. Either that or we have to delvelop a better playing style with the players we have but sadly we still look a little short on quality and attacking ideas. The squad depth is fine really seeing as he rarely deviates from his best 11 once they get on a roll and stay fit. It Seems we are still yet another few quality players short of being the real deal and Mata will suffer because of that eventually id say.
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By the replies it seems it is not obvious to everyone. I'm no great statician but I suspect the stats will backup that he is declining. Very noticeably his stamina. But I think his quality too. He's not terrible, and still better than Mhki and Lingard generally, but not what he was and nowhere near top team level.
Constant managerial changes and altering ideas of how to play the game with not one of them being here long enough enough to implement fundamental change. In accordance with that, we're swapping one set of players with another per managerial shift, too. If we had a DoF or a club philosophy, we'd not have the constant mis-matched squads that we do, as we'd then bring in players to fit the system and not each individual manager.
Ultimately, in a Mourinho team, Mata will be nothing but a sub, too. He ousted him at his very highest level from Chelsea; he'll have no qualms in doing it again if he gets in all the 1st xi personnel he envisions.
Mata is cursed, the poor guy.
Said it from day one he's a bad fit for this club (arguably through no fault of his own as for years on end we play the most archaic football in the premiership with zero emphasis on slick possession). If we had transitioned into a faster possession based style I am sure Mata could have been a huge asset instead we sign him the same window as Fellaini how does that even make tactical sense.
Then you try and pair him with an attack that has guys like Lukaku and give him zero wing backs who can attack to work with.
His time here has been a shambles imo and I feel very sorry for him.
You put Mata in a free-flowing attacking team where he can do what he's good at and I very much doubt he'd look any worse than he did at Chelsea.
We ask him to do a lot of things he was never particularly good at, a good deal away from the areas of the pitch he comes alive in. Getting someone so physically inept to run a flank is baffling. People baulked when Scholes was dumped wide in the England set-up and expected to put in a shift because it took him away from absolutely everything he was great at. We're neutering Mata in a way that's not too dissimilar to that, but because he's played 'wide' in his career before, it's seen as one glove fits all, when in fact, he has always been a proper final 3rd player with people behind him doing the graft, which allowed him to do his thing way up the pitch. We've got him doing the graft miles away from his key areas of the pitch.
It makes no sense. We bought him and then didn't build around him or slot him into his ideal position or supplement him with combination players. Just baffling.
Yes he is and that is precisely why we've got to bin on a free and bring in a real playmaker.
Completely agree. Mata is a second striker/goal-scoring attacking midfielder. He's the guy who makes great runs and within a moment or two wins you the game through a goal assist through his touch, movement, intelligence and finishing. Instead we've dediced he's this wide Debruyne/Zidane-esque playmaker who is supposed to be the one breaking the packed defence and dictating play. It's really very strange. So I agree with you on this.
But I think you the impact of managerial changes on our cohesion (below). It's only United fans who treat managerial changes as such a big deal. Yes, the lack of a DOF hurts continuity but we're so well funded, it should offset that to a great extent. Klopp has also had one season at Liverpool and noone would have called them dysfunctional last season and he didn't even spend all that much. Same with Conte last season who didn't even have a season before making them excellent. Yes, you could argue that Moyes and LVG did more damage than those two clubs endured, but we also have spent money on building a very strong team that should not be dysfunctional.
I agree that he doesn't fit us. We play long ball counter-attacking high-pressing football which he is the opposite of what he's good for. For that we need tall, fast, aggressive forwards. Ozil for me lacks the ability to press. Griezmann can press and is good in the air even if he's not a giant, and is great on the counter. At this point I actually think Fellaini as 10 suits our style more than Mata. And Mata on the wing was daft during LVG era and is as daft today.
Good players, just unfortunately not good enough for us!
Liverpool haven't had managers with over-burdening philosophies until Klopp (and even he just wants fit, young athletes with pace, stamina and a general level of quality), so although the quality of their players might be less than ours, what they are asked to do isn't particularly hard to implement.
We, on the other hand have gone from:
- someone way out of his depth who disbanded us to a;
- manager who wanted players in with very specific traits to match a very particular philosophy to a;
- manager who, ideally, wants a group of 6ft plus physical specimens who practically all must revolve around pace and/or power.
It's an extremely broad switch back and forth and it leads to a carousel as each many in succession wants to get rid of players from the former manager's tenure who simply don't fit with what they want from a team. If we had a universal manager, the type who works with what's at his disposal and turns them into the best they can be, it wouldn't matter, but when you have managers who practically diametrically oppose each other, there are bound to be massive issues with the squad - and if Jose is shown the door or walks out mid-project, we may see the same carousel continue if we get in another manager with a staunch and specific approach to the personnel he wants at his disposal.
Our budget is neither here nor there, really, and if anything, can prove to be a backfire in itself as you can imagine how reluctant the higher ups might become to constantly pander to each new manager with expensive players coming in to replace the last set of expensive players from the manger preceding.
If we want to avoid this, we need a club philosophy and DoF or to bring in players who are more universally adept rather than specialists who have skill sets that thrive only under certain managers and ways of playing but are then marginally effective players outside of that.
trying to think of a game this season he's really impacted on in a positive way- can't think of one
I think his days are numbered and José will go for Ozil
I think his days are numbered and José will go for Ozil
yes not up to the Lingard , Granny Jones , Smalling , Young , Shaw standard at all
I was just thinking this the other day.
I think Mata is good and steady performer and those are the type of players you need in your team. Of course we could have some freak of nature in this position that can decide the game with 1 touch but those are rare and hard to convince.
In general, we have more pressing need for quality in other positions and it could be a mistake to go changing what is not broken.
That being said, I won't be sad to see him replaced by Mbappe/Dembele type of winger or the next Ronaldinho wonderkid, but that could be said for 95% of the footballers out there.
I think Mata is good and steady performer and those are the type of players you need in your team. Of course we could have some freak of nature in this position that can decide the game with 1 touch but those are rare and hard to convince.
In general, we have more pressing need for quality in other positions and it could be a mistake to go changing what is not broken.
That being said, I won't be sad to see him replaced by Mbappe/Dembele type of winger or the next Ronaldinho wonderkid, but that could be said for 95% of the footballers out there.
At least in our team...yes he has, its difficult to determine that when he's been playing different roles on the right wing and as number 10, and sometimes he's not even on the starting XI... I don't see him as our reference in attack on any of the roles he has played, who are his competence? Lingard?? Mhkitaryan?? ... My point is... he's a good squad player to have, that's it.
He was brilliant at Chelsea.
When he joined us he was a solid, consistent 7/10 player. What he lacked physically he made up for with vision and technique.
I see him as a 5-6/10 player now, which isn't enough. He will have good games but overall his speed of thought is no longer overcoming his slowness on the pitch.
When he joined us he was a solid, consistent 7/10 player. What he lacked physically he made up for with vision and technique.
I see him as a 5-6/10 player now, which isn't enough. He will have good games but overall his speed of thought is no longer overcoming his slowness on the pitch.
I agree he's not been great this season so far, but he does have a class on the ball many of our other players do not. Not sure if it's been mentioned about yesterday before but does no one else think it was a bit of a hospital pass he received yesterday in a dangerous area of the pitch? I don't think it's 100% his fault
One bad game and the pitchforks are out in force. The players and the team were on a roll prior to Liverpool game. I blame international break and injuries.
I've never been much of a fan of Mata but his consistency in terms of goals and assists always protected him from heavy criticism.
He's lacking both this season and without them he is just a poor player.
He's lacking both this season and without them he is just a poor player.
Hes wasted out wide. He cant influence the game from out there and he'd be better with pace around him. I would rather see him play as a number 10 than Miki
Why is he never ever played as a No 10? Even yesterday, when Mkhi was not there, Lingard played more centrally. Don't think he is past his best. The team just did not play well yesterday.
We just need our injured players back soon. All players, even Mkhi will start looking good when they do. Until then however, we will have this 'Mata is past his best', 'Lindelof is garbage', 'Mkhi is not good enough', 'Lukaku is inconsistent', 'Martial is struggling' theories.
We just need our injured players back soon. All players, even Mkhi will start looking good when they do. Until then however, we will have this 'Mata is past his best', 'Lindelof is garbage', 'Mkhi is not good enough', 'Lukaku is inconsistent', 'Martial is struggling' theories.
Mata is only good at the short passing game with players around him who can play this way. He does not win the ball and is shy in the tackle. We have a few that could and should be replaced in our side still.
Matic is holding us together now in midfield and we need someone in front of him who can push us forward. Martial is in and out of games and we are very slack on the right hand side also. We need to get rid of the deadwood and bring in replacements or introduce some of our youngsters. We have tough games coming up with Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal in the next few weeks. These games will show us if we really have strength in depth.
Matic is holding us together now in midfield and we need someone in front of him who can push us forward. Martial is in and out of games and we are very slack on the right hand side also. We need to get rid of the deadwood and bring in replacements or introduce some of our youngsters. We have tough games coming up with Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal in the next few weeks. These games will show us if we really have strength in depth.
For nearly 40 million (at January 2014 prices), he has been a very poor signing. You are not going to compete for the highest prizes with such a limited player as a starter (and spare me the references to Chelsea's freakish CL win in 2012 or how he picked up medals while putting out the cones for that golden generation of Spanish players). He gets a very easy ride on here compared to other players because he is intelligent and likeable and he scored a brace at Anfield. Ultimately, though, he is part of the problem, not the solution.
He really was. In 12/13, he made 38% of our goals (55/144).
2011-12: 54 games, 12 goals, 20 assists.
2012-13: 64 games, 20 goals, 35 assists.
He had many great games - e.g. against United, Arsenal, Spurs.
Come on people open your eyes. It's admittedly easy to be fooled by Mata because his technique is sublime but he is such an ineffective football. I have never in all my years watching football seen such a cowardly attacking player. 95% of his passes are sideways or backwards. I don't think I've ever seen him beat a player one on one in the 4 1/2 years he has played for this club. He is one of the weakest, slowest players in the PL.
Sometimes, it's not about technical ability. This is PL football not Futsal. Look at Delli Alli. I wouldn't say he has amazing technique or is particularly easy on the eye but he is 6"3, a physical monster who plays in a positive, direct fashion and makes things happen. Jose wasn't fooled by Mata at Chelsea and I really can't understand why he is carrying on this pretence that he rates him here at OT. Hopefully him being hooked at HT yesterday shows Jose is losing patience
Sometimes, it's not about technical ability. This is PL football not Futsal. Look at Delli Alli. I wouldn't say he has amazing technique or is particularly easy on the eye but he is 6"3, a physical monster who plays in a positive, direct fashion and makes things happen. Jose wasn't fooled by Mata at Chelsea and I really can't understand why he is carrying on this pretence that he rates him here at OT. Hopefully him being hooked at HT yesterday shows Jose is losing patience