I was about to say this
I remember a midfield 2 of Jones and Giggs on an occasion or two. They did quite well too. Giggs just sat and dictated play while Jones did all the running for him
Is our CM situation any worse than it was during our last title win?
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I remember a midfield 2 of Jones and Giggs on an occasion or two. They did quite well too. Giggs just sat and dictated play while Jones did all the running for him
Carrick was insanely good in 2012-13. He was even more important than RVP that season. He was a one man midfield.
If one of Pogba and Van De Beek could actually have a season where they play almost solely in CM and actually play well and form a good partnership with someone, then it would be better than our 2012-13 midfield. Until that happens, it's not as good.
If one of Pogba and Van De Beek could actually have a season where they play almost solely in CM and actually play well and form a good partnership with someone, then it would be better than our 2012-13 midfield. Until that happens, it's not as good.
If we swapped that Carrick for this Fred we'd probably win the league. You've also missed out Kagawa who played 26 games, getting 6 goals & 6 assists that season. Even Cleverley, who was regularly considered to not be good enough, was better than Fred & McTominay have ever been. Giggs also played half that season as a CM so yeah, that midfield was way better than ours is now which is really worrying because that was a pretty weak midfield.
Can city please hurry up & make a bid for neves so we go for him ffs!
Mad to think we won the league with that 2013 midfield and couldn’t win it in the 80s with Robson, Wilkins, Moses, Muhren etc .
A perfect case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Pair Carrick with any of the midfielders(other than Matic) from this season and we win the title
Carrick was a boss that season, and Cleverley wasn’t that bad. I seem to remember us starting every big game that season with more or less the same XI, and it always involved a midfield of Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley, Young. We won them all too. Massive wins at Stamford Bridge, Andfield and the Etihad. If this midfield does that then I’ll be impressed.
Easily so. That midfield had Michael Carrick. This midfield does not.
Michael Carrick was above and beyond incredible that season. I don’t think we’d have won the league that year not just without RVP but Carrick too.
We don’t have a player like that in our current midfield.
We don’t have a player like that in our current midfield.
Giggs that year was 10 times the CM than anyone today. Incredible passing
Even Rooney played CM a few times, with Kagawa at AM (The title clincher vs Villa comes to mind).
Carrick was immense that season and we could trust him to play in a 2. Pogba has simply not consistently performed in a midfield 2 for us so then you're left with the others on your list.
Furthermore, really, it's down to balance rather than simply names to pick from. Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Sancho have nowhere near the amount of defensive responsibility and discipline as Tony V and Ashley Young, when played on the wing, for example.
We looked absolutely exposed against Wolves in the middle of the park. Bruno and Pogba were waiting ahead of the ball most of the time, and Fred simply can't build attacks like Carrick could. He needs protection, in the form of McTominay. You play McFred and Bruno as the three and there's only three places left available for Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho, Lingard, Martial, Mata, Amad, with James now on the way out. The squad is criminally unbalanced...and I haven't even mentioned VDB because clearly he isn't trusted. Would have been nice to put some of that money towards a Central Midfielder capable of breaking up play and building attacks
Carrick was immense that season and we could trust him to play in a 2. Pogba has simply not consistently performed in a midfield 2 for us so then you're left with the others on your list.
Furthermore, really, it's down to balance rather than simply names to pick from. Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Sancho have nowhere near the amount of defensive responsibility and discipline as Tony V and Ashley Young, when played on the wing, for example.
We looked absolutely exposed against Wolves in the middle of the park. Bruno and Pogba were waiting ahead of the ball most of the time, and Fred simply can't build attacks like Carrick could. He needs protection, in the form of McTominay. You play McFred and Bruno as the three and there's only three places left available for Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho, Lingard, Martial, Mata, Amad, with James now on the way out. The squad is criminally unbalanced...and I haven't even mentioned VDB because clearly he isn't trusted. Would have been nice to put some of that money towards a Central Midfielder capable of breaking up play and building attacks
Carrick has only just turned 40.
If he intensely trained for a couple of months and ate like a monk, problem solved.
If he intensely trained for a couple of months and ate like a monk, problem solved.
Numbers wise it's significantly worse before you even get to quality.
Say what you like about those 5 from 2012, they were all central midfielders and their best positions were all centre mid, usually in a midfield 2.
Pogba and VdB are not central midfielders. Matic is too old and immobile to be worthy of inclusion, he makes unretired Scholes look more energetic than peak Fletcher.
Say what you like about those 5 from 2012, they were all central midfielders and their best positions were all centre mid, usually in a midfield 2.
Pogba and VdB are not central midfielders. Matic is too old and immobile to be worthy of inclusion, he makes unretired Scholes look more energetic than peak Fletcher.
Giggs and Jones should be on the 2012/13 list. Back then, Jones was a more than handy utility player and he was rated highly enough as a midfielder by Ferguson to partner Carrick in that all important clash against Madrid.
I would say our 2012/13 group of midfielders was much more fit for purpose than the current crop is. Individually, they don't look much better on paper, but those players were under the stewardship of Ferguson whose teams were greater than the sum of their parts.
The disparaging remarks made about our present midfield options are justified. They are a very conspicuous weak spot and we will likely once again pay the price for failing to adequately address the matter
I would say our 2012/13 group of midfielders was much more fit for purpose than the current crop is. Individually, they don't look much better on paper, but those players were under the stewardship of Ferguson whose teams were greater than the sum of their parts.
The disparaging remarks made about our present midfield options are justified. They are a very conspicuous weak spot and we will likely once again pay the price for failing to adequately address the matter
It's a mess. We atleast had Carrick in there back then, now we have virtually no one.
Nope, Giggs-Carrick were CMs in that game. Ferguson didn't try that nonsense with Rooney because he knew there's more to being a CM than a good Hollywood pass.
I also agree with whoever said put 2012 Carrick in this team instead of Fred and we're favorites for the title.
Of course he would. He's 100x the manager Ole is and he somehow fluked his way into second place. Apart from central midfield, we have a stacked squad everywhere else.
It is worse, but the rest of the team are better. Not sure we have a manager capable of winning the title as well.
It's less about quality and more about balance. Carrick was a player with excellent passing range and vision, but also excellent positioning and intelligence at his peak. We don't have anybody capable of properly sitting in position and keeping things organized and controlled, every week. That's a big problem and it will remain to be a problem until we address it.
Treat yourself to the highlights again my friend - Giggs was on the left (and got 2 assists from there); Rooney was playing in midfield alongside Carrick
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ports/manchester-united-3-aston-villa-2994535 for reference
38 year old Scholes who couldn't even start ahead of Tom Cleverley... This myth that Scholes was still the best midfielder in the league until he retired needs to end, he can probably still pass the ball better than anyone on the planet to this day but it doesn't mean he can start in our midfield, elite teams need players in their physical prime. As early as 08/09 Scholes had periods where he wasn't starting games and missed out on the big games which demonstrates his decline started a lot earlier than people will admit, you need legs in midfield.
There's a reason our midfield was considered a weakness for years, Giggs and Scholes were on their last legs, Hargreaves never returned, Fletcher got ill and Anderson was never good enough. Cleverley came in and did ok for a bit but quickly realised he wasn't up to it. Carrick was holding it together almost single handedly.
Ferguson got the best out the squads he had but I don't think he'd have got away with that midfield had he been competing for the league against Pep's City and Klopp's Liverpool who averaged about 99 points 3 seasons on the bounce for example, so it's worth remembering how successful you can be is always relative to the level of the competition.
Bit of a red herring. Kagawa either played Bruno's role behind the striker or on the wing. Not really the position we're talking about.
Well now I look a little silly. Seen that game so many times in the last eight years including Giggs and Rooney's assists, and I always just figured they were floating around having fun.
As you were, then!
Maybe but Pogba has spent the last year mainly deployed in attack and he's also in the list in the OP.
Carrick along with Lee Cattermole would be better than the current. Carrick was class
League wasn’t near as strong back then. You could argue this is the strongest domestic league of the past 20-30 years right now. 4 teams that could all contend for the UCL and are probably 4 of the top 6 teams in the world, along with mid table that has as much talent as we’ve seen ever.
Scholes played in most of the games until he got a knee injury. Please someone show highlights from that year. Anytime he played he controlled the game. Check out the game when we played Liverpool away that year. He was brillant. You can not expect him to play every game. Saf knew when to use him.
just a reminder
...
that team often got out-pressed (yesterday's game would have been a bloodbath), but having a DM as the one classy midfielder rather than a AM (Pogba) automatically balanced the team better.
...
that team often got out-pressed (yesterday's game would have been a bloodbath), but having a DM as the one classy midfielder rather than a AM (Pogba) automatically balanced the team better.
There is one small difference,
2012-13 manager was SAF.
2021-22 manager is Ole..
And Carrick is 2012-13 was still a good passer and arguably had one of his best seasons.
2012-13 manager was SAF.
2021-22 manager is Ole..
And Carrick is 2012-13 was still a good passer and arguably had one of his best seasons.
We had great wingers/full backs back then and we focused pretty much on the flanks in attack. The only duty of the midfield was to recycle the ball and pass to the wingers, which Carrick and Cleverley were more than capable. Now we demand much more from our midfielders.
Btw I have always thought Cleverley was a bit underrated.
Btw I have always thought Cleverley was a bit underrated.
Sir Alex was the biggest difference. He knew how to mask weaknesses if your team had them - great managers do that. What's more amusing is that we bemoaned him for not signing midfielders but it's gotten worse now with 1 addition over the last 4 and too an attacking midfielder who nobody can find.
Carrick would also have faltered under the press. We just had a team that worked under a manager who could do whatever he wanted in the domestic league and still win
The level of our competiton is much uch higher. You have a City on steroids who previously reached 100 points and have strenghtened, Chelsea who are European Champions and who've strenghtened and Liverpool previous winners and CL winners with roughly the same personnel. It's going to be incredibly tough to win the title with our current midfield.
just look at how Carrick positioned himself to receive and pass the ball. There's no unnecessary touch, he release the ball at the right time most of the time. Pogba was supposed to play like this, but the timing of his passes is incredibly off. He took way too long on the ball and opportunities were lost
City and Liverpool aren't as good as they were in 2019 though.
City haven't strengthened over the summer. Neither have Liverpool(except for VVD returning).
Yes it'll be tough to win the title(it's never easy), but no squad/team is perfect. We have the team capable of winning it.
Factually speaking, City have strengthened, they have gotten Grealish!
Liverpool have Van Dijk and Gomez and Matip back. All those 3 were missing for large chunks of last year. And they bought Konate to boot.
Pogba is no Carrick, but also our movement upfront is so uncoordinated
This piece was interesting
https://remarkable.letterdrop.com/p/one-usual-one-unusual-problem-man-utd-wolves
They did get Grealish, but they lost Aguero(who is finished - but they have a hole at striker).
We strengthened way more than they did.
This is an important point that isn't emphasized enough. The current level of competition in the league is much higher than it used to be. There are no guaranteed titles no matter how good your players are, because City and Chelsea have an endless fountain of wealth and will always be able to compete. Even most mid-table premier league sides are much better and more organised than they used to be. The standard has never been higher.
As is our job if we aim to catch them.
And Aguerro was finished, he hardly played last year. He got what, 4 goals in the league?