Sorry, should have clarified that he'd be in the top 3 for me if he achieves the above.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
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Would you have him in the top 3 today, knowing that the managers with more success include Lobanovsky, Lucescu and Stein?
I think that I have him in the top 3 today. Ferguson is far ahead of the second who is either Ancelotti or Guardiola.
It's not the same though, what did Cristiano and the rest do outside of Man United, that Barca team dominated the International stage without Pep.
I think I'd probably have Fergie and Ancelotti in at the top 2. I think that Pep is in a contingent still with Mourinho et al. I know Jose has fallen off a cliff recently but the Porto double and Inter treble wins give him huge credit in the bank, as does what he did with Chelsea and some of the records he set with them.
It's like admitting your exes new partner is better at sex than you. It hurts to much to even think about
Real Madrid had Casillas, Ramos, Alonso of that same team, with Di Maria one of the best players in the 2014 WC. Ronaldo and Pepe won a Euros two years later, Modric won a WC Golden Ball.
As for United, Vidic-Ferdinand didn’t need to win international tournaments for anyone to know how great they were, same with Rooney etc. Was a very good team.
What did Barcelona do after Pep? The likes of Pique, Messi, Busquets etc played for many years after that. They won 1 CL in 12 years.
But that was relatively close after Pep left and while all of Pep's core players were still playing at a high level. Barca failed at properly replacing that player generation which is why they haven't won the CL in years, but they were still a very good team after Pep left.
I think lots of people (including me) have Pep ahead of Ancelotti because he is a far better league manager (9 vs 4, will be 9 or 10 vs 5 in 1 month), and being a decade younger, still has plenty of time to catch up with Ancelotti when it comes to UCLs (3 vs 4 or 5). Furthermore, Pep teams reached a much higher level of playing, when it comes to eye test, and that matters.
There is no argument whatsoever to put Klopp ahead of Ancelotti though, despite that I like Klopp's style of play far more. In fact, there is no argument to put Klopp even ahead of Mourinho.
I would have the order of current ones as Pep, Ancelotti, Mourinho and Klopp, with the first two being in top 5 of all time (probably second and fourth), Mourinho probably top 10, but Klopp definitely not.
How is that the fault of Pep that his team dominated but couldn't score?
Imagine declaring Ancelotti the master mind after a game like that where Real was extremely lucky after complete humiliation, they just parked the bus and got away with a win, could have easily ended another 4-0.
Ancelotti the 2nd best manager ever?
I'm honestly not sure I see the argument for him over Pep.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but the way certain City players were running in that game vs Real Madrid was inhuman to me.
Never bought into it until last night. I wouldn't be surprised if we find something out much later down the road.
4 CLs trumps all. Even if you allocate 1.5 to SAF's trophy with Aberdeen, Ancelotti is still ahead
4 CL titles is very impressive, but 5(soon to be 6) league titles considering some of the teams he's had is fairly disappointing I'd say.
I'd put a lot of weight into league success since it's a better barometer for success generally. Greater sample size and less luck/fortune coming into player.
Do you no think Ancelotti’s achievements are quite similar to Pep’s? i.e. tons of success but doing it at already very dominant clubs
Mourinho’s achievements at Porto and Inter are crazy good, probably only matched by Alex Ferguson with Aberdeen, which is another example of unbelievable achievement above the odds.
As others have mentioned, the CL titles and the looming charges over City favour Ancelotti over Pep for me but you can't argue with the latters impact on football and that puts him in that top 3 category. I think if he goes to a national side and wins with them he'd be arguably top 2 or the best. It's very minute details at the top and comes down to personal preferences in some regards also.
That personal preference also can be seen for me when he was at Everton, his man management was able to get players that subsequently finished 16th, 17th and are now in 16th, to 59 points and 10th (8 points off top 4 and we were also 2nd on Boxing day). Now we are struggling to get 40.
I prefer the Ancelotti/SAF type managers of the world.
Cheers. Yep he was an absolute coup for Everton.
It's tongue in cheek and serious at the same time. I believe doping is extremely common, and City do it better than most. So it's basically just something else they're better at than the rest, including Real Madrid
Guardiola has managed Barcalona, Bayern and Citeh. All have money and top players when he joined. He doesn't have a record of developing youngsters and playing them in the first team as SAF did. He's had a few but sold a few, Cole Palmer being one. I don't buy this 'Genius' thing put out by the media, the same media who brown nose City 24/7 but will drop them like a hot stone when they get demoted. He just wonders into the CEO's office as says 'Get Mahrez' or 'Get Haaland' and they do. I can't deny his trophy success, but as Yaya Toure's late agent once said 'If Guardiola managed Grimsby and won the Premier League, then he'd be a genius'.
I know pep gets praise from being a trendsetter on the pitch but fergie turned man united into a absolute juggernaut and played a massive part in the premier league global impact
SAF could have chosen to jump ship to ship and ventured to Germany, Italy, and Spain and won more cups and titles, I have no doubts he wins more CLs doing this. He could have become a checkbook manager going to the biggest bank in each league. He could have told Edwards to feck off when the club failed to invest in the squad after the 99 success and every club in Europe would have thrown a blank check at him to sign him on. His legacy would be even more impactful than it is now and fans in other nations would truly see his greatness.
Guardiola's early success at Barca and Madrid’s ridiculous record over the last 10 years has made people forget how difficult it is to win the Champions League. There's a reason why very few teams manage to defend their title.
Fergie's record of two wins and two losing finals (alongside a few additional appearances in semi finals) in 20 years from when we first qualified in 1993 compares well with post Barca Guardiola's one win in eleven years and Klopp's one at Liverpool.
In the aftermath of the draw, it was crazy how many people were underestimating Madrid. These games are meant to be difficult to win even when you have the backing of an entire state like Guardiola has.
Fergie's record of two wins and two losing finals (alongside a few additional appearances in semi finals) in 20 years from when we first qualified in 1993 compares well with post Barca Guardiola's one win in eleven years and Klopp's one at Liverpool.
In the aftermath of the draw, it was crazy how many people were underestimating Madrid. These games are meant to be difficult to win even when you have the backing of an entire state like Guardiola has.
It’s not a formality to win it, but it’s certainly easier to win these days than it used to be as the gap between the top teams and the rest is so much bigger. Add to that the number of top teams now is a lot smaller than it used to be.
15 or 20 years ago, there were very few teams in the competition that were a formality outside of the group stages.
I think it's more Guardiola's tactics, in particular, aren't the best to win knock out competitions. Think of him in the CL every year, at Barca he won twice but both times they were likely going out until ref intervention (Chelsea / Arsenal) and with Inter the ref also intervened but they just couldn't beat them. At Bayern it was a bit of a disaster with them getting thumped by Real, Barca and then going out to Atleti as well. With City it's been a real mixed bag as well, with some embarrassing exits.
No one underestimated Real, they did just sit in and play deep as everyone expected. I think everyone just overestimated City when we already know this season they've not been that great.
He's the best chequebook manager ever. If you have infinite resources he's the man to get you sweeping up silverware while playing football that's easy on the eye, if a little boring. SAF is still the clear winner overall and nobody will ever do what he's done again.
Italians, Spanish, Germans have their own legendary managers, I don't think SAF is the first person that comes to their mind when they think about GOAT managers nor would I expect their top teams to closely pursue him when they had Lippi, Ancelotti, Heynckes etc. It's a different mentality.
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Saw some people actually blame Ancelotti for not doing well at Everton at the time, how badly that has aged. Ancelotti at Everton actually is a good example of what would an elite manager look like at a weaker club. They would help overall but don't expect miracles.
The greatest manager of all time takes Aberdeen (with the team available at the time) to a european final and beats Real Madrid
It's weird because during the period you'd have arguably said that we at times played dreadful stuff and could have squeezed a bit more out of ourselves but obviously with the power of hindsight it changes everything.
You cant pick Grealish before Doku and be the greatest manager. If Doku had started the game would have been decided without penaliy shootouts.
Short answer: no.
That said, there is not - and probably never will be - anything like a consensus on who the greatest manager/coach of all time is.
Less so, even, than for players (and there is no consensus there either).
But there are several managers/coaches you could make a better case for than Pep, based on relevant criteria - so why should it be him?
He's obviously there or there abouts in a wider sense (it would be ridiculous to pretend otherwise, as in: he's actually a "fraud"), but if you compare it to the discussion about where Messi belongs in an all-time context (see above), it's (much) less clear.
Or, if you will, there are (far) more candidates who could be placed above Pep (based on relevant criteria) than is the case with Messi.
That said, there is not - and probably never will be - anything like a consensus on who the greatest manager/coach of all time is.
Less so, even, than for players (and there is no consensus there either).
But there are several managers/coaches you could make a better case for than Pep, based on relevant criteria - so why should it be him?
He's obviously there or there abouts in a wider sense (it would be ridiculous to pretend otherwise, as in: he's actually a "fraud"), but if you compare it to the discussion about where Messi belongs in an all-time context (see above), it's (much) less clear.
Or, if you will, there are (far) more candidates who could be placed above Pep (based on relevant criteria) than is the case with Messi.
Alonso staying at Bayer is indicative of him wanting to be regarded as one of the best ever in 10-15 years time.
The one thing Fergie and others have over Pep, is the fact he succeeded with a pair of unsuccessful clubs. Aberdeen hadn’t won the league for twenty some years before he did. He’s the only manager to have won the double there that wasn’t managing an old firm club. He won a European Competition there against Real Madrid. He then went to a United that hadn’t won a league in twenty plus years. Wins there too.
Pep can never have that, and thus, despite all of his perfection and incredible… he’s never number one. He cherry picks leagues and clubs, managing the best teams with the biggest budgets, and thrives. It’s an incredible thing he’s got, but he’s got no true point to differentiate himself as the true number one.
Alonso is giving himself a chance. Theres still more chance that he never hits the heights of Pep, than doing so. But the opportunity to win an unbeaten ‘treble’ in Germany, and back himself to win a Champions League with the same team… before doing the Pep cherry picking… big draw. Seems like an affable chap, but he’s got to be arrogant enough to care about legacy too.
The one thing Fergie and others have over Pep, is the fact he succeeded with a pair of unsuccessful clubs. Aberdeen hadn’t won the league for twenty some years before he did. He’s the only manager to have won the double there that wasn’t managing an old firm club. He won a European Competition there against Real Madrid. He then went to a United that hadn’t won a league in twenty plus years. Wins there too.
Pep can never have that, and thus, despite all of his perfection and incredible… he’s never number one. He cherry picks leagues and clubs, managing the best teams with the biggest budgets, and thrives. It’s an incredible thing he’s got, but he’s got no true point to differentiate himself as the true number one.
Alonso is giving himself a chance. Theres still more chance that he never hits the heights of Pep, than doing so. But the opportunity to win an unbeaten ‘treble’ in Germany, and back himself to win a Champions League with the same team… before doing the Pep cherry picking… big draw. Seems like an affable chap, but he’s got to be arrogant enough to care about legacy too.
He’s managed some amazing clubs (Barca Bayern feck city) and players. As we have found out it’s not easy to manage expectations from big clubs. And he’s done well. He’s a close second to SAF
I don't think it was a masterful performance, but this game felt quite different than the 4-0 from last season or even the 4-3 from two years ago. In those two games City had lots of incredible goal-scoring opportunities. In this one they didn't seem anywhere near as good, to me, which is why they did not win.
He quite famously did that at Barcelona.
1 Champions league in 13 years with unlimited funds? Nah.
Is this question maybe a case where we can draw a distinction between "manager" and "coach"?
I think it's probably fair to say that Pep is the best coach of all time. His teams carry out his tactics and instructions with incredible efficiency and success. I'm not old enough to have seen the old greats so I can't compare them, but I'd be surprised if any could match him. He's taken on all of those ideas and galvanised them into almost unbeatable football
Ferguson was less of a coach, I'm sure. I'm not sure about his earlier years, but I've read that later in his career he didn't coach that much and left a lot of it to his assistants. But my god did he get the absolute max level out of most of his players. Not as tactically astute as Pep probably, but undoubtedly the best manager (if we're making that distinction)
I think it's probably fair to say that Pep is the best coach of all time. His teams carry out his tactics and instructions with incredible efficiency and success. I'm not old enough to have seen the old greats so I can't compare them, but I'd be surprised if any could match him. He's taken on all of those ideas and galvanised them into almost unbeatable football
Ferguson was less of a coach, I'm sure. I'm not sure about his earlier years, but I've read that later in his career he didn't coach that much and left a lot of it to his assistants. But my god did he get the absolute max level out of most of his players. Not as tactically astute as Pep probably, but undoubtedly the best manager (if we're making that distinction)
We obviously left facts at the door for this debate a long time ago.
Barcelona doesn't count
He's one of the managers of all time, yes. No doubt