He could win 10 straight trebles with City and he still wouldn't be the greatest ever. Substitute Pep with any historically great manager and the result is the exact same and they'd probably have done it in half the time and with half the amount of money spent.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
No because he's not playing in the same competitions as the rest of us.
This is not correct. We have had managers at Barca, Bayern, Real Madrid, United, Chelsea and all the big European clubs. How many of them have been able to sustain success at the big clubs for an insanely long period? Pep isn’t the first or last to manage Barca - how many managers have gone ahead to sustain success at the highest level since they too had the advanatage of coaching Barca or Bayern? How many managers have sustained success at Bayern even with the wealth of their stars?
He's still young mind you, still 52 years old. Still has at least 10 years in him, so by the time he retires I expect him to break every single possible record and end up being the best ever.
All these arguments about "not winning CL with Bayern", "spending a lot of money" and "won't be able to win the league managing Aston Villa" are just bitter arguments coming from people who hates giving him credit for this unprecedented level of dominance and they themselves know these arguments are bollocks but will never admit it openly.
I said it before but his haters need to realize Guardiola has nothing to prove to anyone, and particularly nothing to prove to armchair managers posting on an internet forum.
All these arguments about "not winning CL with Bayern", "spending a lot of money" and "won't be able to win the league managing Aston Villa" are just bitter arguments coming from people who hates giving him credit for this unprecedented level of dominance and they themselves know these arguments are bollocks but will never admit it openly.
I said it before but his haters need to realize Guardiola has nothing to prove to anyone, and particularly nothing to prove to armchair managers posting on an internet forum.
But if you taking cheating City out of equation then what
He’s certainly up there, let’s be honest. Awful as it is.
Leicester fekin city fan wumming here.The tears in this thread.
Give him something like Leeds United or Southampton without the limitless budget. Have him build it to a treble team and 13 PL titles and we can call him GOAT.
He underachieved at Bayern - he inherited a treble winning side from Heynckes ((many of whom won the WC in 2014) and failed to win tne Champions League. At Barcelona, he had Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. Tonight, he had 10 times the budget of his opponent. i see a flat track bully.
I think people raise the bar in terms of expectations whenever Pep is mentioned. Turning a team from a low trajectory and achieving success with it is an emotional criteria people set in order to give their narrative some legitimacy. No mention of the years Klopp had to wait in England before they put in a decent challenge spending record sums for a defender and goal keeper in the process.
No mention that Liverpool are not going to feature in the UCL next season being replaced by the likes of Arteta and Howe. No mention that he has won 1 league title in 8 years. Bottom line is that there is no objectivity in using the “has he done it at a smaller club” criteria as the ultimate barometer.
It's unbelievable how people still uses this bollocks argument to shit over his Barca tenure even though it was debunked ton of times already. It's a proof some people aren't interested in knowing the truth and rather stick with the narrative that suits their agenda even if it was proven wrong.
He won the Bundesliga easily setting records, lost to peak one of Ronaldo's best ever seasons at Real Madrid, then one of Messi's best ever seasons at Barcelona for two of them. In 2016, they were all over Atletico in the semi-finals, missed a penalty. They had 33 shots on goal, it was one of the more unlucky games I've ever seen, lost on away goals. The Champions League is no guarantee for any manager to win it, Ferguson himself only won it twice, Wenger never won it, Klopp once etc.
Then at Barcelona he beat Real Madrid who bought the two most expensive players in the world at the time, Ronaldo and Kaka, as well as Benzema and Xabi Alonso for big money. Real Madrid were top spenders in that period. They also brought in Mourinho, considered the best manager in the world at the time. Despite this, he still won the league and Champions League in 2010/11.
You can't be serious. Bayern Munich have 11 straight league titles and two managers not named Pep have won trebles at Bayern Munich in the last decade.
Literally the next season after Pep left Barcelona someone else came in and won a treble and they have 5 league titles since Pep left. That's not sustained success for you?
Oh also none of those guys I mentioned had the luxury of a billion pounds to build their squad.
Give Klopp, Luis Enrique, Zidane or Ancelotti a billion pounds and their pick of the best players and they deliver a treble. Maybe even multiple trebles.
Was I hallucinating when I saw Iniesta create the first goal in the 2009 final and Messi score the second? And I recall all three played in 2011. Or were all three heading for a career at Stoke with Tony Pulis before Pep the magician magically turned their careers around?
The implication of inheriting a treble winning side, contrary to what people often think, is that you are walking on a tight rope because whatever you achieve, if it’s not a treble you have already come short. That’s a very terrible standard to be judged by. On the contrary if Klopp doesn’t make champions league this year, we go: “you know the squad is fatigued.”
You are applying hindsight in highlighting the brilliance of the Barca trio. That team was cooked by the man. Would you compare the performances of these players before Pep took over the reins to what they were able to achieve?
Yes he had a lot more resources than Inter but they conquered RM and Bayern on their way to the finals. Football has shown us that managers do not necessarily perform better when they are given better squads compared to when they were in their humble beginnings so suggesting that any manager will succeed at big clubs is a moot point. Pochettino had a lot to say in that regard.
Guardiola has won more than twice as many league titles in 15 years of management as Ancelotti has in 28 years - Ancelotti has managed Bayern Munich, Chelsea, Real, PSG, AC Milan, Juve who were among the top spenders or top spenders in their league at the time.
It was Guardiola who built the team around these players and put them in the higlight spot while moving players like Deco, Ronaldinho and Toure to give these a chance to shine in comparison to Rijkaard's Barca. Guardiola was the one who played Messi as false nine which exploded his abilities.
These 3 wouldn't have developed into what they became without Guardiola no matter how you try to convince yourselves otherwise because it denies the prospect of managers developing players entirely. With that logic Ronaldo would have developed into Ballon D' Or winner without Ferguson anyway, Ferguson was lucky to manage him, or something like that.
No, he’s possibly the biggest cheat of all time though. If that helps.
German league titles don’t count if you manage Bayern, I’m afraid. It’s like Brendan with Celtic. His main achievement which exceeded expectation was the.2009 CL final (for which we were favourites). 2011 was admittedly a result of his excellent work. Everything else since is merely translating cash into results (and we have no idea just how much cash has been pumped into City).
You are on very boring repetitive rants.
Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol won the Euros before Pep started managing them. The club won a league and CL double only two years before Pep took over. No matter who he threw out or whatever, the truth it they won those big trophies already in 2006.
Messi was voted 3rd best player in the world in 2007 and 2nd best in 2008 before Pep even started managing him.
These are all facts, but good luck with your next rant.
Anyone could clearly see they're well coached though, if Guardiola leaves the City job tomorrow and makes himself available do you seriously think any team in the world wouldn't have him as their manager? It reminds me of the Messi can't do it on a cold wet windy day at Stoke some of these opinions.
No.
I don't remember saying they were shit. I said Guardiola developed them into becoming such elite players.
"very boring rant" definitely more interesting than convincing yourself Pep only won because he had great players with him, and he wouldn't be able to win the league managing Leeds United.
Managers develop players.. Get over it.
Tbf, I do think City would have won the champions league before were it not for his self sabotage. That said, he's clearly helped them in the league.
Let Klopp beat Howe and Arteta and gain entrance to the UCL first. Enrique won the treble alright but the jury is out for him to continue to test himself at the highest levels. We have seen managers who we thought would dominate the world once they are given resources and choice players to work with because of their stint at lesser clubs, feck it up. Lest I forget how is Flick doing in Germany now?
The point I’m making is that people hold Pep to a much higher standard to everybody else. Neither Flick nor Enrique is pulling trees at their national teams today and everyone is fine. I bet you if Pep decides to resign from city this season and goes to Spain or Germany, everyone will begin to point out the German or Spanish players as world class stars who Pep is supposed to win every trophy with. We do not like to mention the fact that Heynkes lost two domestic titles where he was favorite before he won the treble or that Klopp has had as many seasons to forget as he has had memorable ones.
The jury is out on the managers who you think will dominate the word if blessed with resources, it’s not Pep’s call. Those managers can make the move but until then your assumptions are invalid. I personally thought Jose would dominate the world for a decade then he was went to RM but I was wrong. I don’t know what Zizou is running away from.
I highly recommend you desist from engaging in debates that only happen online amongst non-experts. Waste of time. Examples of such debates:
1. Whether the earth is flat or not
2. Whether the moon landing was faked or not
3. Whether Pep is a fraud or not
Ok, final word from me. Pep is very talented and, from what I can gather, a decent human being. But, for most of his managerial career, he has been playing with loaded dice. He was also.found to have doped as a player when he was with Brescia in Italy and, while I do not want to cast aspersions (although many other Spanish athletes at the time fell foul of doping rules), some of his teams have displayed incredible energy.(Barcelona’s 2011 performance was particularly noteworthy in that regard). Undeniably brilliant but a bit of an asterisk. Also, why is he managing the fourth biggest club in NW England? Reverse the roles tonight and there’d be parties all over Northern Italy. In Engoand, it’s complete apathy. He has dedicated the best years of his career to a sportswashing project for ludicrous sums of money (and a team for his brother to manage).
He's definitely the best manger, whose had had an unlimited transfer budget, in the history of the game.
Even if you argue he can only succeed with unlimited resources, he's class in his own right. It would've definitely taken longer for City to achieve the treble if it wasn't for him.
I hope he leaves City ASAP.
I hope he leaves City ASAP.
He also had Nathan Ake, John Stones and Jack Grealish in his starting line Up. How many of his players were bought from Europe’s elite clubs and considered world class when he bought them?
I used to be of the mind that any manager guarantees success with certain football clubs, but my opinion has changed over the years when you look at what managers like Zidane achieved at Madrid, only for it not to go the same way when he left, same with Barca once Pep left and so on and so forth. Managers are important, however there are multiple reasons Pep will never be the best manager ever.
Firstly I would argue that he's probably the best tactician that's for sure, and the unorthodox ways he makes use of his players and they don't look out of place is quite a talent to have and you rarely see it if ever... however
Barcelona - Had arguably the worlds best club side of players at the time, probably the best player to ever play the game, arguably the best midfield trio to ever play the game and so on and so forth
Bayern Munich - Have just won the league for the 10th season in a row, cherry picks all the best German talent so their rivals can barely make a competition out of it, including players like Lewandowski in his prime. There was always a feeling he underachieved here despite everything though.
Man City - Financial doping, any amount of money spent on any player he ever wanted, completely unlimited funds and the ability to replace bad signings with a brand new shiny one the next season which means his squad depth is unreal and you virtually have world class players in all positions and even on the bench.
Where's the adversity? Again he has to make something of them of course but he's had virtually everything handed to him on a silver platter at every club he's been at.
As fantastic as a manager he is he will never beat the likes of Sir Alex, Busby, Mourinho, Clough, Shankly etc
These managers had different types of challenges throughout their careers, they didn't always have the best squads, the most money and yet they were able to reach incredible heights
Sir Alex with Aberdeen and constant success with United, first team to do the treble and with loads of academy players, winning league titles with some abysmal squads
Busby - Winning and playing attractive football with young academy players, winning the European cup after the Munich tragedy
Mourinho's work with Porto, Inter Milan, to an extent Chelsea and Real Madrid, perhaps the only manager to take it to Pep for a while
Clough's incredible work with Nottingham Forest
In an ideal world in order for Pep to be considered amongst the top echelon of managers he should have to step outside his comfort zone, manage a team that isn't the best in the world with unlimited resources everytime and make something out of that, but he's never going to do it and instead he'll pile up accolades with his unlimited resources and be considered one of the top 2 managers of all time, it's stupid
Firstly I would argue that he's probably the best tactician that's for sure, and the unorthodox ways he makes use of his players and they don't look out of place is quite a talent to have and you rarely see it if ever... however
Barcelona - Had arguably the worlds best club side of players at the time, probably the best player to ever play the game, arguably the best midfield trio to ever play the game and so on and so forth
Bayern Munich - Have just won the league for the 10th season in a row, cherry picks all the best German talent so their rivals can barely make a competition out of it, including players like Lewandowski in his prime. There was always a feeling he underachieved here despite everything though.
Man City - Financial doping, any amount of money spent on any player he ever wanted, completely unlimited funds and the ability to replace bad signings with a brand new shiny one the next season which means his squad depth is unreal and you virtually have world class players in all positions and even on the bench.
Where's the adversity? Again he has to make something of them of course but he's had virtually everything handed to him on a silver platter at every club he's been at.
As fantastic as a manager he is he will never beat the likes of Sir Alex, Busby, Mourinho, Clough, Shankly etc
These managers had different types of challenges throughout their careers, they didn't always have the best squads, the most money and yet they were able to reach incredible heights
Sir Alex with Aberdeen and constant success with United, first team to do the treble and with loads of academy players, winning league titles with some abysmal squads
Busby - Winning and playing attractive football with young academy players, winning the European cup after the Munich tragedy
Mourinho's work with Porto, Inter Milan, to an extent Chelsea and Real Madrid, perhaps the only manager to take it to Pep for a while
Clough's incredible work with Nottingham Forest
In an ideal world in order for Pep to be considered amongst the top echelon of managers he should have to step outside his comfort zone, manage a team that isn't the best in the world with unlimited resources everytime and make something out of that, but he's never going to do it and instead he'll pile up accolades with his unlimited resources and be considered one of the top 2 managers of all time, it's stupid
I agree - he’s outstanding. But would he get the same resources anywhere else (except PSG)? Messi killed that debate last year when he inspired a good but not great Argentina side. I doubt we will ever see that side of Pep put to the test.
Two trebles in two different countries - yes, he is the greatest manager of all time. Still very picky when it comes to projects though. Also there are some question marks over his cleanliness... doping at Barcelona and financial doping at City.
I don't know whether he is the greatest but I do think sometimes he is unfairly criticized. It is often said his success has been solely achieved by coaching great teams but he always put his stamp on those teams. How many Barca coaches achieved what Guardiola achieved? How good was Xavi pre-Guardiola?
Besides, other big name managers aren't faultless either. Ancelotti at Bayern wasn't that impressive and he got the sack?
Besides, other big name managers aren't faultless either. Ancelotti at Bayern wasn't that impressive and he got the sack?
Absolutely. City are well run and won’t appoint someone like Moyes or Ole, But with a merely “good” manager, they will not stay so far ahead of the pack.
Not really sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. I am sure that John Stones & Jack Grealish aren’t great examples to use for his success in player development
One of the best.
Both the way he improves and utilities his players and an extent to which his teams dominate opposition are very underrated.
Both the way he improves and utilities his players and an extent to which his teams dominate opposition are very underrated.
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He's obviously a great manager. Anyone that argues otherwise is an idiot. He is up there with the greats, but not the greatest, for me. It's all subjective at this point. The horse has bolted when a 3rd rate club like City dominate like they have in such a short space of time. Money corrupts and boy, are they corrupt. Not a single person cheering them on tonight where i was. That might change in a few years. Times change and move on but that was the most, joyless and go fcuk yourselves CL win that i have ever seen.
Well the point is he’s started with players who aren’t exactly the best of the best. People give the impression he just buys the best players in every position and can rotate them off the bench too but it’s not really how it works is it? I asked before, but how many players has be bought who were considered to be world class when he signed them?
The unlimited budget doesn’t really ring true either, he wanted to sign Sanchez and missed out because of money, same with Messi, and he also wanted Van Dijk and was outbid by the scousers. If level of success was dictated purely by money spent then Ole might still be here, and Ten Haag would probably be a lot happier right now. City won’t have this sustained success once Guardiola leaves.