Is Pogba as good as gone?

Rozay

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I couldn't disagree more. He's been largely mediocre for nigh on 3 years, with great performances few and far between and some true shockers.

Usually a cycle of 3 average/poor games after a run of playing well?!? I mean, do you even watch the games?
So by and large, when he steps on to a football field, he is shocking?

Again, I ask you to skim back through his performance threads on this very forum over the last 3 years, and see what is generally said about him after each game. Or if there is an easier way, look at the percentage of MOTM awards he wins on here in all of his games, and at the very least, how often he’s in the top 3.

You will then notice that his poor performances are massively exaggerated. Most of the people wishing him away were probably saying very different in those very threads, although I admit that many compliments were always backhanded.
 

izzydiggler

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So by and large, when he steps on to a football field, he is shocking?

Again, I ask you to skim back through his performance threads on this very forum over the last 3 years, and see what is generally said about him after each game. Or if there is an easier way, look at the percentage of MOTM awards he wins on here in all of his games, and at the very least, how often he’s in the top 3.

You will then notice that his poor performances are massively exaggerated. Most of the people wishing him away were probably saying very different in those very threads, although I admit that many compliments were always backhanded.
I don't have to trawl through threads, or stats...I'm old fashioned and just watch the games and judge from that.

I certainly sympathise with someone of his talent having to play with such medocire team mates but his body of work for us has been underwhelming and largely mediocre IMO. No stats or people continually telling me how great he's been here will overcome what I've seen...I genuinely don't know how people could have watched him for 3+ years and deem his transfer as a success.

There are certainly factors outside his control that have contributed to it that I can get on board with but when people start telling me he's been great, then I wonder who they've been watching. It's like 'The Emperor's New Clothes'...
 

Rozay

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I don't have to trawl through threads, or stats...I'm old fashioned and just watch the games and judge from that.

I certainly sympathise with someone of his talent having to play with such medocire team mates but his body of work for us has been underwhelming and largely mediocre IMO. No stats or people continually telling me how great he's been here will overcome what I've seen...I genuinely don't know how people could have watched him for 3+ years and deem his transfer as a success.

There are certainly factors outside his control that have contributed to it that I can get on board with but when people start telling me he's been great, then I wonder who they've been watching. It's like 'The Emperor's New Clothes'...
I didn’t tell you he’s been great, I’m telling you he hasn’t been poor for 3 years bar the odd great performance.
 

eire-red

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We've largely used Pogba in effectively while he's been at the club. In a midfield two, he's constrained and he's probably played more games in a two than in a midfield 3, or as the most advanced midfielder. Another point is the quality of player around him. Pogba isn't the type of player to inspire his teammates and get the best out of others. His game is based on moments of class that nobody else in the team can produce.

He's a luxury player, but the responsibility of the manager has to be to recognise this, and play him to his strengths. He can't be a creative force if he's in a midfield 2, collecting the ball from deep and starting attacks. Neither can he be an effective attacking force unless we have the right players in midfield to supply him with passes between the lines.

We'll never see the best of him until we play him to his strengths. He's the only player we have that can be anonymous for 60 mins in a game but still produce moments of sheer class to win you the game. He hasn't been what we hoped since his return, but part of the blame also has to lie with Mourinho and Ole in not knowing exactly what they want from him, or demanding things from him that blatantly suffocate all the parts of his game that he excels in.
 

kouroux

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I don't have to trawl through threads, or stats...I'm old fashioned and just watch the games and judge from that.

I certainly sympathise with someone of his talent having to play with such medocire team mates but his body of work for us has been underwhelming and largely mediocre IMO. No stats or people continually telling me how great he's been here will overcome what I've seen...I genuinely don't know how people could have watched him for 3+ years and deem his transfer as a success.

There are certainly factors outside his control that have contributed to it that I can get on board with but when people start telling me he's been great, then I wonder who they've been watching. It's like 'The Emperor's New Clothes'...
Nobody is doing this. You're arguing a point no one has made :lol:
 

Sandikan

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It always baffles me when people talk of Pogba being "Poor" and suchlike.

The only remote way he's been underwhelming or poor, is versus the world class levels we'd hope for.

In actual measurements against most of the rest of our team, he's often head and shoulder above them.

At least at the moment we know we have Pogba to come back into the McTom/Fred/Pereira type midfields.
Imagine if that was actually our best 3!
 

Son

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It’s funny that when he’s not on the pitch people are just making stories up about him not been good enough.

He hits like 2 or 3 defence splitting long balls every game. His passing range is insane and world class. Why would any club ever want rid of a player with his abilities? Makes zero sense when he’s our best midfielder by FAR. Works hard too off the ball and gets back to help the defence as well as been our most effective attacking outlet when he’s in the field. Makes us tick.
 

McGrathsipan

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Its a question of attitude over ability.

Hes here so while he is he should put his shoulder to the wheel and be professional.

He should lead by example
 

el3mel

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Its a question of attitude over ability.

Hes here so while he is he should put his shoulder to the wheel and be professional.

He should lead by example
He has been a professional tbf. He shut up his mouth after the window closed and played when asked. I'll give him that. That's hardly my problem with him. His inconsistency and the loads of excuses and requirements people put for him to perform regularly is my problem with him, however off the pitch he has been good imo, nothing toxic I'll say.
 

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We should have a central midfielder already lined up as a replacement. Pogba is yester year, time to move on from him and his antics.
 

Champagne Football

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It will be a big relief for everyone when he goes back to Juventus in the summer.

Mourinho was about the worst manager Pogba could have hoped for. Pogba has that fragile personality that only the best managers can get the best out of. The likes of Cantona, Anelka, Robinho, Adriano fit into that category and show the fine line between genius and wasted talent with those types of fragile flair players.

Pogba had already decided he wanted to be anywhere but here by the time Ole arrived.

Get rid. Exchange for someone who has to pinch themselves every day that they play for Man Utd, like Maddison perhaps, and move on.
 

JPRouve

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Comparing Cantona and Pogba personalities, that's a new one.
 

JPRouve

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For me it's putting Cantona and Robinho in the same sentence :lol:
The rest is way too ridiculous to consider, outside of being footballers and some sharing nationalities they aren't exactly alike.
 

technetium82

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I'll trust Alex Fergus ons judgement regarding Pogba over anyone on here, he knew what he was like and got rid, he's disruptive in the dressing room and thiks he's the greatest player alive.

I've no problem with people with self confidence who back it up, Ronaldo, Cantona, Ibrahimovic, all 10x the player Pogba ever will be. The guy is a fraud and needs everyone else around him to help him look good , when in a mediocre team like Uniteds he doesn't stand up or stand out. He dissapears. Sooner he's gone the better.
 

Champagne Football

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For me it's putting Cantona and Robinho in the same sentence :lol:
I'm obviously referring to extracting their genius. Robinho could have been the next Pele, he was that good. But he was homesick living in Europe and never settled.

You need a special kind of manager who can extract that genius. At Leeds, Cantona was decent but not a sensation. He had a track record of fighting and disciplinary problems. Leeds Utd felt he was not worth the hassle and happily moved him on for peanuts. But Fergie extracted his genius by treating him differently to other players.

Mourinho has that old school tough love style that only works on certain players, and is detrimental to others, with Pogba being an example. If a manager had told Cantona to forget about expressing himself on the pitch, and to focus all game on tracking back, then he'd have got bored and retired before his career had begun.
 

kouroux

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I'm obviously referring to extracting their genius. Robinho could have been the next Pele, he was that good. But he was homesick living in Europe and never settled.

You need a special kind of manager who can extract that genius. At Leeds, Cantona was decent but not a sensation. He had a track record of fighting and disciplinary problems. Leeds Utd felt he was not worth the hassle and happily moved him on for peanuts. But Fergie extracted his genius.

Mourinho has that old school tough love style that only works on certain players, and is detrimental to others, with Pogba being an example. If a manager had told Cantona to forget about expressing himself, and to focus all game on tracking back, then he'd have got bored and retired before his career had begun.
That's the thing though, you overrating Pogba to that level and then ultimately be disappointed is on you.
Robinho the next Pele, really ? Never believe the hype
 

Champagne Football

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That's the thing though, you overrating Pogba to that level and then ultimately be disappointed is on you.
Pogba was the world's most in demand kid while turning out world class performances on a weekly basis, while at Juventus.

At times in the French team, he's their most influential player and they are world champions.

The talent is undeniable, but he's mentally fragile and needs everything to be set up perfectly around him for his genius to shine, otherwise he goes into his shell and downs tools.
 

JPRouve

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Pogba was the world's most in demand kid while turning out world class performances on a weekly basis, while at Juventus.

At times in the French team, he's their most influential player and they are world champions.

The talent is undeniable, but he's mentally fragile and needs everything to be set up perfectly around him for his genius to shine, otherwise he goes into his shell and downs tools.
Pogba isn't France most influential player.
 

kouroux

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Pogba was the world's most in demand kid while turning out world class performances on a weekly basis, while at Juventus.

At times in the French team, he's their most influential player and they are world champions.

The talent is undeniable, but he's mentally fragile and needs everything to be set up perfectly around him for his genius to shine, otherwise he goes into his shell and downs tools.
Nooo :lol: that's just not what was happening at Juventus. I'm afraid you're rewriting history. He's never been the most influential player for France either, an important cog, yes at times but never the one who stood out :lol:
 

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Hugely talented but massively overrated. Underperformed while here. Incredible disappointment and in many ways we’ll be better off when he’s gone. Wrong character for us at present.

if he was in a team surrounded by world class and dominant players it may be different but he sees himself as a big fish in a small pond here because he is so much more talented than those around him and that’s plain wrong.
 

RedDevilUnited369

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Every negative comment in this thread is laughable and made up rubbish in posters heads.

There is only one worthy criticism of Pogba and that is consistency....

Many players suffer from inconsistency...just have a look at our current strike force.

But its only Pogba that gets the "get rid" treatment...

The scapegoat is not Pogba...its bad management of the club and recruitment

When he comes back he will be played out of position because our club is badly managed and we don't have the right players to get the best out of our best player...and he will be blamed for lacklustre performances when in truth...he isn't a miracle worker.
 

JPRouve

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You missed the part where I said 'At times'.
He is never the most influential, there isn't a moment in his career for France where he was. For France Pogba has always been the sidekick of someone when he performed well, either Kanté or Griezmann, he isn't the player that has the biggest impact when he isn't in the team or when he joins, players like Hernandez, Kanté or Mbappé makes the team totally different in terms of attitude.
 

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Nooo :lol: that's just not what was happening at Juventus. I'm afraid you're rewriting history. He's never been the most influential player for France either, an important cog, yes at times but never the one who stood out :lol:
'If he can keep up his current development he can become one of the best players ever'
(Zidane on Pogba in 2014 while he was at Juventus)
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/pogba-can-become-one-of-the-best-players-ever-says-zidane-98

Both Barca and Madrid wanted Pogba when we bought him in 2016 but werevnot willing to match the salary we were offering him.
 

kouroux

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'If he can keep up his current development he can become one of the best players ever'
(Zidane on Pogba in 2014 while he was at Juventus)
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/pogba-can-become-one-of-the-best-players-ever-says-zidane-98

Both Barca and Madrid wanted Pogba when we bought him in 2016 but werevnot willing to match the salary we were offering him.
Oh come on, a manager tapping up and bigging up a player publicly will always make him say things that are OTT. You only needed to watch Pogba during his Italian career and his Man United career to know that Zidane over praised him. Zidane isn't immune from being wrong.
 

RedDevilUnited369

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He is never the most influential, there isn't a moment in his career for France where he was. For France Pogba has always been the sidekick of someone when he performed well, either Kanté or Griezmann, he isn't the player that has the biggest impact when he isn't in the team or when he joins, players like Hernandez, Kanté or Mbappé makes the team totally different in terms of attitude.
"Into the knockouts Pogba became more and more influential. The critics in general grew quieter and quieter. Against Argentina he enjoyed himself as France glided through the creative gears. Against Uruguay he helped his team to control the game and minimise pressure. Against Belgium he was strong and disciplined, supporting the defensive work with a mix of aggression and diligence. Pogba showed many facets to his game, able to do what was needed in different situations.

The connections he was making on the pitch became stronger. His bond with N’Golo Kanté flourished as a central midfield pair, though it was less effective in the final when Kanté strained to be his usual self. His instinctive understanding with Kylian Mbappé, as exemplified by that ravishing goal when they combined brilliantly as the teenager bounded on to Pogba’s sumptuous pass to ensure the final is remembered for some dazzling football as well as the strokes of first-half luck, is another major plus France take home from this tournament. As souvenirs go, a goal and an assist from that period of play will rightly be cherished by Pogba."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/16/doubted-to-dominator-paul-pogbas-world-cup-evolution

You shouldn't try to rewrite history cause history is documented.
 

kouroux

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"Into the knockouts Pogba became more and more influential. The critics in general grew quieter and quieter. Against Argentina he enjoyed himself as France glided through the creative gears. Against Uruguay he helped his team to control the game and minimise pressure. Against Belgium he was strong and disciplined, supporting the defensive work with a mix of aggression and diligence. Pogba showed many facets to his game, able to do what was needed in different situations.

The connections he was making on the pitch became stronger. His bond with N’Golo Kanté flourished as a central midfield pair, though it was less effective in the final when Kanté strained to be his usual self. His instinctive understanding with Kylian Mbappé, as exemplified by that ravishing goal when they combined brilliantly as the teenager bounded on to Pogba’s sumptuous pass to ensure the final is remembered for some dazzling football as well as the strokes of first-half luck, is another major plus France take home from this tournament. As souvenirs go, a goal and an assist from that period of play will rightly be cherished by Pogba."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/16/doubted-to-dominator-paul-pogbas-world-cup-evolution

You shouldn't try to rewrite history cause history is documented.
None of this clearly states he was the most influential player in the team.
 

JPRouve

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"Into the knockouts Pogba became more and more influential. The critics in general grew quieter and quieter. Against Argentina he enjoyed himself as France glided through the creative gears. Against Uruguay he helped his team to control the game and minimise pressure. Against Belgium he was strong and disciplined, supporting the defensive work with a mix of aggression and diligence. Pogba showed many facets to his game, able to do what was needed in different situations.

The connections he was making on the pitch became stronger. His bond with N’Golo Kanté flourished as a central midfield pair, though it was less effective in the final when Kanté strained to be his usual self. His instinctive understanding with Kylian Mbappé, as exemplified by that ravishing goal when they combined brilliantly as the teenager bounded on to Pogba’s sumptuous pass to ensure the final is remembered for some dazzling football as well as the strokes of first-half luck, is another major plus France take home from this tournament. As souvenirs go, a goal and an assist from that period of play will rightly be cherished by Pogba."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/16/doubted-to-dominator-paul-pogbas-world-cup-evolution

You shouldn't try to rewrite history cause history is documented.
None of that tell you that Pogba was the most influential, it's a journalist writing a nice article about a popular player. France don't have a most influential player and haven't had one in a long time.
 

RedDevilUnited369

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Oh he has to be the most influential for you guys to be happy?

Being a dominate force in a World Cup winning team just isn't good enough huh?

Like I said, fans looking for a scapegoat.

But if you can show me a better player in our current side I'll agree, but I know and so does everybody else know there isn't one so all your arguments are pointless...

You want to get rid of our best player for two lesser players rather than find a compliment player to get the best out of Pogba.
 

kouroux

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Oh he has to be the most influential for you guys to be happy?

Being a dominate force in a World Cup winning team just isn't good enough huh?

Like I said, fans looking for a scapegoat.

But if you can show me a better player in our current side I'll agree, but I know and so does everybody else know there isn't one so all your arguments are pointless...

You want to get rid of our best player for two lesser players rather than find a compliment player to get the best out of Pogba.
Don't take it personally but it's simple, if you don't say stuff that aren't true then I won't feel the need to correct you. The rest of what you said doesn't concern me, I think you even got us completely backwards :lol:
 

JPRouve

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Oh he has to be the most influential for you guys to be happy?

Being a dominate force in a World Cup winning team just isn't good enough huh?

Like I said, fans looking for a scapegoat.

But if you can show me a better player in our current side I'll agree, but I know and so does everybody else know there isn't one so all your arguments are pointless...

You want to get rid of our best player for two lesser players rather than find a compliment player to get the best out of Pogba.
Neither of us want to get rid of Pogba, we both defended him in this very page. But he isn't the most influential player for France, he has been mainly contested in his international career and France happens to not have a "most influential player".
 

He'sRaldo

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Neither of us want to get rid of Pogba, we both defended him in this very page. But he isn't the most influential player for France, he has been mainly contested in his international career and France happens to not have a "most influential player".
Definitely not for the entirety of his NT career, but for the World Cup I'd say he has to be at least top 3. Both Kante and Mbappe wouldn't have been as effective without his work, so that has to count for something.
 

kouroux

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Neither of us want to get rid of Pogba, we both defended him in this very page. But he isn't the most influential player for France, he has been mainly contested in his international career and France happens to not have a "most influential player".
That's probably Giroud tbh
 

JPRouve

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Definitely not for the entirety of his NT career, but for the World Cup I'd say he has to be at least top 3. Both Kante and Mbappe wouldn't have been as effective without his work, so that has to count for something.
During the World cup Kanté and Varane were the best players, followed by a group made of Pogba, Griezmann, Matuidi, Hernandez, Lloris and Mbappé. It's near impossible to only mention three players for France under Deschamps, everything is about the team and the setup, you take Giroud out and we struggle mightily but if you only swap Pogba for Tolisso or Ndombélé we are fine. Basically if you take one player out we can keep the same level, if you take two of them we struggle.
 

He'sRaldo

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During the World cup Kanté and Varane were the best players, followed by a group made of Pogba, Griezmann, Matuidi, Hernandez, Lloris and Mbappé. It's near impossible to only mention three players for France under Deschamps, everything is about the team and the setup, you take Giroud out and we struggle mightily but if you only swap Pogba for Tolisso or Ndombélé we are fine. Basically if you take one player out we can keep the same level, if you take two of them we struggle.
I think for most good teams the setup is crucial. Your example with Giroud only works because Deschamps didn't bring along another striker of that profile like Lacazette, so there's a hole in his setup whenever Giroud doesn't play. Tolisso and Ndombele have a more similar profile to Pogba.

But I get the general gist of what you're saying. There are players who elevate the setup with their quality and I think Pogba was one, but ultimately the team was most important for that win.
 

JPRouve

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I think for most good teams the setup is crucial. Your example with Giroud only works because Deschamps didn't bring along another striker of that profile like Lacazette, so there's a hole in his setup whenever Giroud doesn't play. Tolisso and Ndombele have a more similar profile to Pogba.

But I get the general gist of what you're saying. There are players who elevate the setup with their quality and I think Pogba was one, but ultimately the team was most important for that win.
No the mention of Giroud had nothing to do with the WC, the group that I mentioned in the first sentence was about the world cup. As for Giroud he was uncharacteristically bad at the World Cup, outside of it he has been the most consistent player since the day he joined the team and since he is a starter we haven't been able to work without him whatever the system used, his game off the ball and ability to support other players has been crucial.
 

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Not saying it should have been done but I do wonder what would have happened if we'd sold him for 150 million this summer (if that fee was even likely) and brought in two attacking players that we desperately needed with the money.
We might have brought in another CM to replace him, but the rest of the money would've been pocketed by The Glazers. Woodward would've picked up a handsome bonus for that and everybody (except the fans), would've been happy.