‘For us’ being the operative phrase here. How many players HAVE excelled at united in that time, more so than Pogba? Anyway, I was responding to a post that said Pogba was ‘just a poser’ which obviously is a load of rubbish. Pogba has had plenty of good performances in big games for Juve and France and also a few for us.
Is Pogba as good as gone?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
United have been very poor since Pogba came. Now you can say that’s his own doing if you want to, but the other evidence we have to go on suggests otherwise.
If you took Pogba out of our team and replaced him with Grealish or Neves, how do you think they would perform? Because nearly every signing we make tends to drop a level once they join United.
No one worried his big money sale will jack up the price for Grealish or Maddison? We all know about the dreaded English tax.
I have to agree with some of the posters here that the sheer lack of memories in his 4 years here is a massive disappointment considering the fee and the expectations. His first season was decent/average, scored in the EL final but was outshone by Herrera (the MoTM) and was also pretty much outshone by Herrera for the whole of 16/17. Other than his best performance in a United shirt against City away, 17/18 was remembered for his falling out with Jose. Next season saw a period where he looked fantastic for a few months midseason and then faded badly toward the end. There's not a lot of good stuff to analyse.
In summary, it's felt like a big waste of time and disappointment will be what I chiefly remember him for (unless he goes out with a mega bang of form and wins us trophies this season).Disappointed (but understandable) that he left the first time, but a disappointing waste of four years this time.
...And he only played on two occasions vs Liverpool (I think). 2 times in 4 years is dire if true.
I have to agree with some of the posters here that the sheer lack of memories in his 4 years here is a massive disappointment considering the fee and the expectations. His first season was decent/average, scored in the EL final but was outshone by Herrera (the MoTM) and was also pretty much outshone by Herrera for the whole of 16/17. Other than his best performance in a United shirt against City away, 17/18 was remembered for his falling out with Jose. Next season saw a period where he looked fantastic for a few months midseason and then faded badly toward the end. There's not a lot of good stuff to analyse.
In summary, it's felt like a big waste of time and disappointment will be what I chiefly remember him for (unless he goes out with a mega bang of form and wins us trophies this season).Disappointed (but understandable) that he left the first time, but a disappointing waste of four years this time.
...And he only played on two occasions vs Liverpool (I think). 2 times in 4 years is dire if true.
Herrera and Zlatan in 16/17 for a start. In 17/18 maybe you could argue Matic (I probably wouldn't agree with that but others would) and DDG.
He once bottled it so badly in a game that we were behind in that Mata actually had to run over and tell him to calm down. He hadn't a clue what he was at, shooting from the craziest positions.
And last season, Pogba was our highest scorer and highest assister. That doesn’t mean he played to his potential, and the examples you gave, whilst decent seasons, are hardly anything out of this world.
I still stand by my point: United is a difficult place for players to come and show their best abilities. If Pogba leaves it will more than likely be to a team that is currently above us in the European hierarchy.
Neither of these players excelled more than Pogba, they were all around the same level, it's this type of things that make the conversations weird. And Matic didn't outperform Pogba either, Matic was subpar during half of his first season and people put it down to tiredness.
Which game was that if you don't mind me asking?
I'd also like to see this list although it'd be like finding a needle in a haystack there so few and far between. Big Games he's been absolute bullock's in would be easier as it's about 90% of them.
Pogba has played well at various points himself. I don't buy that theory that the club makes some players worse. Aside from Di Maria, the players who leave often show their true level. The expectation from united is different. Even Lukaku looked good for us at points. It has nothing to do with the club, moyes and lvg are the only managers that I can say made players look worse than they were. It has to do with the quality, consistency and effectiveness of our players.
In regards to Pogba, we have seen him be brilliant from various positions. His problem is that he is not consistent enough and has not found a way to use the skills he has to be consistently effective in the english game. He doesn't move the ball quickly enough to play as an attacking midfielder, does not use his stamina, work rate and speed to be effective defensively in midfield and has proven to lack the awareness and will to play as an 8 in our centre midfield. No manager is responsible for that. That is on Pogba.
Personally I think the premier league is a bit too fast for him at times, as he has low concentration levels and is not the best at anticipating constant danger. He thrives and will thrive more in a slower league where he has the time and space to influence the game with his skillset.
Keep him, some people will see a £120 million + fee as some sort victory, but it is meaningless if we don't replace his talent, which we won't, it would just be another step down the ladder for us as a top club.
If we cling onto him there might be some way we can sort ourselves and he will think again, if he doesn't then I don't really care if he has to leave on a free in the end.
If we cling onto him there might be some way we can sort ourselves and he will think again, if he doesn't then I don't really care if he has to leave on a free in the end.
It's not just fans and it may be nonsense but it's in all of the papers and Daniel Taylor was talking about it as a realistic possibility on the radio.
This isn't like Ronaldo who respected the club and the manager enough to give his all despite wanting a move. Pogba often comes across as disinterested and his performances are inconsistent. He obviously wanted to go last summer and IMO we asked him to give us one more season unfortunately that decision has backfired.
I do expect him to perform well if he returns before the end of the season but I also feel that will be to put himself in the shop window before the WC.
It's not easy to sell a player at market value when everybody in the world knows said player is desperate to leave.
Yes, we could stand our ground and not let him leave for a penny less than our valuation. But we're not the state of Qatar and can not afford to have a player with his salary run down his contract without getting some return on our investment
Yes, we could stand our ground and not let him leave for a penny less than our valuation. But we're not the state of Qatar and can not afford to have a player with his salary run down his contract without getting some return on our investment
Well seeing as he has made a champions league final, scored and assisted in a World Cup final win, named as a member of the European team of the season and the premier league team of the season, was our most productive player last season and also scored in a Europa League final, I didn’t think I would actually need to list all of the big games he’s played well in over the first half of his professional career. I guess some people don’t follow football that closely though.
I agree, but we need to ask ourselves why he want to put himself in the shop window so much, why he is disinterested, and why he wanted to go so much last summer as well, we are the problem, not him.
Like Lukaku people will be getting themselves excited about the fee we will get, and convince themselves we are the winners, but it will just be a continuation of us disappearing into the abyss, whilst Pogba and his new club reap all the benefits.
I just don't see an upside for us at all.
I disagree. Herrera completely outshone him that season. He was MotM in matches against Chelsea and Liverpool, our POTY, and MotM in the EL final. Some very big performances from him that year and he had a very consistent season. Zlatan was our main striker and was on course for 35-40 goals too but his season was cut short by the injury. Pogba's first season was one of fairly mixed performances and some nightmare big games (the home game vs Liverpool was particularly horrendous)
Actually I agree with you about Matic in 17/18 but I think some would argue he was more effective on the whole that season than Pogba (that's debatable though).
That's not the case though. I don't really like their ratings but lets use Whoscored as an example, in the PL in 2016/2017 they gave Pogba a rating of 7.72 and he had 4 MotM, Herrera was given a 7.36 rating and he had 5 MotM, Ibrahimovic was given a rating of 7.45 and had 5 MotM. Redcafe posters gave Herrera a 6.4 rating, Pogba 6.3 and Ibrahimovic 6.2.
As I said they were in the same bracket but for some reason the performances of one of them have somehow been downgraded.
Until people understand that this is not the club for players to perform at their optimum level then we'll continue having these conversations. No team this unfit, poorly coached and understaffed in the player department has players playing at a world class level on a consistent basis.
A question that needs to be answered, is that does anyone trust Woody and Judge to actually invest thenbig transfer fee received for players that we need and then negotiate wages. History tells us that there is f*^k all chance of that happening.
Pogba needs to knuckle down but with the fat agent behind him, not much chance of that ocurring when a big fee is out there, a sad reality of both our club and the player.
Pogba needs to knuckle down but with the fat agent behind him, not much chance of that ocurring when a big fee is out there, a sad reality of both our club and the player.
We never replaced the likes Ronaldo, Vidic, Giggs, RVP etc so I'm quite skeptical we'll be able to replace Pogba under the current set up.
I'd love to see it work out and having him being an integral part of us having success and winning major honors again but it's real tough to see that happening without taking serious steps to restore our status as an elite club on and off the pitch.
We've seen so many different managers and players fail under the current management that I'm at the point where I truly believe that just about anyone bar SAF, would fail or at least damage their reputation, at the club
It depends who's in for him. Even if he wants to leave, if two or more big clubs want him (like a PSG, Real, etc...) they still have to bid against each other. The idea is to let it be known that there are multiple clubs interested in him.
Disagree with clubbing Pogba and Sanchez together. Pogba hasn't lacked in commitment in his time at United. We've just been miserably managed and some people wrongly believed he was Balon Dor material.
Well, Coutinho, Griezmann and Dembele wanted to leave for Barcelona and fetched huge fees. Pogba's case may be affected by nobody being as stupid as Barcelona of course. And the players injury. But merely wanting to leave doesn't mean we can't get a great fee.
I just hope we replace with genuine technical quality. Not seen that much of Fernandes but he appears more Herrera than Pogba. I know that we won't be able to find someone with his level of natural talent but at least somebody who genuinely stands out individually. From what people here seem to think and again the little I've seen, Grealish seems more this type of enigmatic talent than Fernandes who looks functional and more dependent on the unit. So if Grealish is that sort of talent we should consider him. Although we do need a proper CM too.
Um 2 goals against Man City in a stunning game, scored against Chelsea and Arsenal as well oh and in the Cup Final against Ajax. Maybe not enough, but enough not to deserve the bolded bit above
This whole thing really gets me down to be honest and I'm still none the wiser as to what's going to happen next season. In an ideal world he'd commit himself to the club and stay on, signing a new contract in the process, but with that would have to be a genuine commitment to knock these rumours and briefings on the head and solely buy in to what we are trying to do. In addition the club would have to back the philosophy in the transfer market and have everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.
That said, and with the way his season seems to be fizzling out, I can't say the chances of the above look very promising. To be quite honest I'm fed up with the speculation and would just like to see an end to the saga one way or another early in the summer.
That said, and with the way his season seems to be fizzling out, I can't say the chances of the above look very promising. To be quite honest I'm fed up with the speculation and would just like to see an end to the saga one way or another early in the summer.
He absolutely stank out the joint in the first half of that match against City.
I would much, much rather a combination of functional players who make the overall team better than one creative outlet to burden a large portion of duties on.
Liverpool's side has a few average individual talents in the middle of the park but no one will out play them. When Pogba came id rather have seen us get Fabinho, a player like Pjanic and have cash leftover. I'd be pretty annoyed if we sold Pogba now and tried to just go out and buy another Pogba type.
Thankfully I don't think we will anymore. And even if we to for Grealish I hope he doesn't eat too much into Pogba money.
I've been of the belief probably since last summer that he'd be going this year, so mentally I'm very much prepared for it, and this season has made it quite easy to picture us without him due to the fact he's hardly played. I'm still intrigued how it'll go when the window opens though, I've no idea who will actually bid for him or give us anywhere close to what we're rightfully going to be asking.
I hope we get it solved very very quickly, if there's still question marks over his future in August I'm going to be fecked off. I'm sick of drama and simply the talking about him, as much as I rate him, if he's not going to commit fully, for everyones sake him going is for the best, I can't be bothered with another campaign like this.
I hope we get it solved very very quickly, if there's still question marks over his future in August I'm going to be fecked off. I'm sick of drama and simply the talking about him, as much as I rate him, if he's not going to commit fully, for everyones sake him going is for the best, I can't be bothered with another campaign like this.
I will celebrate when the virus will be out
Complete myth that he’s a virus or bad influence within the club.
It's certainly possible, but it will be hard getting a bidding war going because there's so few clubs that can afford the whole Pogba package. PSG and Real are the obvious candidates, but as far as I've read, the Sheikh and Florentino Perez literally have a memo of understanding in which they will stay out of each others way (after the Mbappé thing). Juve will want Pogba cheap. That leaves Barcelona and Bayern and the latter might not be interested in Pogba.
I still think PSG is the most likely destination. While Zidane might lust for Pogba, the Madrid board has refused to meet our valuation of the player.
I can just imagine Barcelona going into a panic if Messi leaves and then giving us 130 million to soften the blow.
Pogba was never a Keane or a Scholes. He won't run the pitch like a man possessed, lead the squad like they are facing D Day or move in different positions and still be brilliant, especially since these players did all that under 1 absolutely brilliant manager. Pogba had to work with 2 managers, one of which lost not 1 but 3 dressing rooms in a row and the other is not even a top manager in the first place. Neither Keane nor Scholes took mediocrity lightly back in their day. Scholes retired with England early in his career while Keane kicked a hornet's nest with Ireland and returned home like a spoiled kid.
That doesn't mean that Pogba doesn't deserves a fair share of slack. His obsession with his hair and social media is frustrating. On the pitch Pogba can play 1 position and 1 position only (ie AM in a 3 men midfield) which means that managers have to adapt to it. Surely he might move slightly deeper if the right people are around him (ie a beast like Kante) but that's often doesn't work as both Conte and Allegri can testify. Having said while he needs plenty of TLC and he's a bit of a liability when defending, he's a professional and an excellent player. FFS the guy got the thumbs up from Conte whose probably the hardest nut there is at top level football alongside Simeone, both of whom know what playing in midfield is all about..
Pogba was never really given a chance here. His critics were at his neck from day 1, criticising him relentlessly despite ending up our top scorer and our top assist man last season. Even now he's being blamed of everything despite being injured. As Evra said, its time for him to go so he can showcase his talent elsewhere. Unfortunately I can see the toxic negativity shifting on Martial now, yet another French dude whose guilty of not single handedly carry United to success as Cantona is rumoured to have done. That is pure myth of course. Cantona was great but he played in a weaker league to today's EPL and was surrounded by the likes of Sir Alex, Ince, Keane, Pally, Robbo, Irwin, Giggs and co around him. The King would struggle in this Manchester United.
That doesn't mean that Pogba doesn't deserves a fair share of slack. His obsession with his hair and social media is frustrating. On the pitch Pogba can play 1 position and 1 position only (ie AM in a 3 men midfield) which means that managers have to adapt to it. Surely he might move slightly deeper if the right people are around him (ie a beast like Kante) but that's often doesn't work as both Conte and Allegri can testify. Having said while he needs plenty of TLC and he's a bit of a liability when defending, he's a professional and an excellent player. FFS the guy got the thumbs up from Conte whose probably the hardest nut there is at top level football alongside Simeone, both of whom know what playing in midfield is all about..
Pogba was never really given a chance here. His critics were at his neck from day 1, criticising him relentlessly despite ending up our top scorer and our top assist man last season. Even now he's being blamed of everything despite being injured. As Evra said, its time for him to go so he can showcase his talent elsewhere. Unfortunately I can see the toxic negativity shifting on Martial now, yet another French dude whose guilty of not single handedly carry United to success as Cantona is rumoured to have done. That is pure myth of course. Cantona was great but he played in a weaker league to today's EPL and was surrounded by the likes of Sir Alex, Ince, Keane, Pally, Robbo, Irwin, Giggs and co around him. The King would struggle in this Manchester United.
Since he joined the club (from 2016-17 to 2018-19 season) only Delli Alli and David Silva have contributed to more goals than Pogba (only CM and AM are considered*) but somehow he has not done anything of note in PL.
They all played most games as AM whereas Pogba played most games in midfield and in midfield 2.
* games where they played as CM/AM are considered, for example any games where Eriksen or Ozil played as wingers won't be considered in filter condition.
KdB stats would have been even better but he was injured for almost whole 2018-19 season.
They all played most games as AM whereas Pogba played most games in midfield and in midfield 2.
* games where they played as CM/AM are considered, for example any games where Eriksen or Ozil played as wingers won't be considered in filter condition.
KdB stats would have been even better but he was injured for almost whole 2018-19 season.
| Players | G+A | Games | Total Mins | |
| Dele Alli | 52 | 85 | 7290 | |
| David Silva | 46 | 83 | 7055 | |
| Paul Pogba | 44 | 87 | 7592 | |
| Kevin De Bruyne | 43 | 62 | 5302 | |
| Mesut Özil | 30 | 67 | 5805 | |
| Christian Eriksen | 24 | 64 | 5663 | |
| Luka Milivojevic | 23 | 73 | 6481 | |
| Gylfi Sigurdsson | 22 | 35 | 3008 | |
| Aaron Ramsey | 20 | 35 | 2811 | |
| Georginio Wijnaldum | 19 | 65 | 5579 | |
| Eden Hazard | 18 | 28 | 2302 | |
| Ilkay Gündogan | 18 | 47 | 3928 | |
| Abdoulaye Doucouré | 17 | 71 | 6351 | |
| Manuel Lanzini | 17 | 43 | 3581 |
*scores 2 crucial 2nd half goals to win the derby
caf: meh, didn't like him in the first 45
You just did.
This Liverpool comparison again. Everyone seems to want to be exactly like Liverpool. We don't have the flair from fullbacks to get away with having as boring CMs as they do IMO. Functional is important but so is technical brilliance. So whether it's a dLP, number or AM, I do think having that excellence in midfield is important.
At the moment I very much doubt he will still be here in September however I thought the same about De Gea in 2015 and Real messed around and in my opinion were never committed to paying his value and sure enough 2 weeks later he signed a bumper new deal with us.
I’m not going to rule out the same scenario for Pogba. I don’t think there is a club out there who is willing to pay what we will demand for him and pay him more than we will. If we stave off low bids over the summer and he’s still here in September then I think he is more likely to take on the financial security of a £350k+ / week 5 year deal than he is to let his current deal run down to force a move.
I’m not going to rule out the same scenario for Pogba. I don’t think there is a club out there who is willing to pay what we will demand for him and pay him more than we will. If we stave off low bids over the summer and he’s still here in September then I think he is more likely to take on the financial security of a £350k+ / week 5 year deal than he is to let his current deal run down to force a move.
Pretty much. It's as if people don't realize that we would have to replace around 5 players and that our other CMs aren't actually that functional or consistent either.