The man is an absolute thunder**** and I see why people slag him off, but my word if he was in your team he'd be your thunder**** and you'd all love him. One of the best defenders of the past decade or so, won everything and contributed to all of the trophies. Great player, though he brings back sore memories of when we thought we were signing him a few years back. I was so excited and then he signed a new contract at Real.
Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?
- Thread starter deafepl
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If he is as average as many seem to think so then how do you explain he's lasted this long at the most ruthless club in the world ?
To be fair, Koeman is (rightly) criticised as a defender – always was and always will be. While his positioning was quite good, he was absolutely hopeless one on one against good dribblers and had pretty much no recovery pace or agility (this actually reminds me of someone, but Koeman was worse in that regard). Ramos' athleticism helps him out a lot and I doubt that you'd find many people that saw both Koeman and Ramos that will say that Koeman was a better defender. Overall Koeman was a better player though, his attacking capabilities were on an another level compared to Ramos' (who is himself pretty great in that regard) and can only be compared to the likes of Beckenbauer & Passarella.
He is anything but overrated. One of the best centerback in the past 20 years.
He is, alongside Diego Godin (who is very much the opposite of him in many ways), the best center back of his generation, and this has been one of the most difficult periods to shine for defenders, considering the changes in refereeing and tactics. From the TV era I'd say that only 50's were significantly worse (considerably though, they were simply left for dead if any offensive player had managed to escape from his marker).
Although any radical opinion (like people completely dismissing his defensive contribution, which has been pretty impressive, albeit not comparable to that of Nesta/Baresi etc.) usually invites an equally radical response, so a lot of high-profile players are both overrated and underrated at the same time. Ramos is probably the best example of this.
Hence the belowmentioned quote:
Although any radical opinion (like people completely dismissing his defensive contribution, which has been pretty impressive, albeit not comparable to that of Nesta/Baresi etc.) usually invites an equally radical response, so a lot of high-profile players are both overrated and underrated at the same time. Ramos is probably the best example of this.
Hence the belowmentioned quote:
So you'd take Ramos over Nesta or Rio? Even as a complete package, I simply can not agree with that. Van Dijk's peak is too short at the moment to compare him with all-time greats, so I'll leave him out of this.
Absolutely.
Tired of all these excuses. All these arguments just make me feel that you all agree Ramos is not defending well, but the reason is the lack of protection around him. If he can only defend properly with so much protection, he's no different with Shawcross or any other mediocre CB in terms of defensive ability. Fact is, plenty of teams (e.g. Barcelona, Liverpool, City and many many more) play in a high line nowadays but I rarely see a defender getting booked and caught out of position as frequent as him. Here's just one of the plenty errors he made and it's crystal clear the mistake came from his lack of defensive awareness and poor decision making rather than a lack of protection.
It's got nothing to do with agreeing that Ramos isn't defending well - it's highlighting the very valid point that defending your penalty area and booting the ball into the stands whenever it comes near you is far, far easier than playing 40 yards from your own goal with full backs pressing high up the pitch leaving space both in behind and down the flanks.
Put Ramos at CB in one of those teams and ask him to defend the penalty area, he would look absolutely God-like. Put one of those CBs in Madrid's team, ask them to play a high line and press the ball in between the lines AND be aware of the space in the channel...they would look like a Sunday League player
Also, in the video you have posted, clearly it's a tactic worked out pre-game. They look to have a back five with Ramos being asked to step into the midfield to close down Busquets when Barcelona look to work the ball forward. On both occasions, it looks to me like the other CB left too much space between themselves and the full back, the first goal in particular that gap is massive!
On a side note, and for all those saying Van Dijk is overrated, why do we think Liverpool have improved so substantially for the addition of one player? The answer is, he allows them to play 20 yards higher! This helps the midfield enormously as it gives them less space to have to close down and recover the ball and helps them play closer to the front players.
This is also the reason it is SO difficult for the modern top teams to find the right defenders. It is so rare that you find a big, physically strong CB with pace, with a football brain and who is good on the ball.
Regarding the video, it's clearly a back four with Casemiro as a DM to protect the defence. He just had to drop deep to cover for Ramos who went out of position, as he always does with his lack of defensive awareness and poor decision making. I highly doubt if that's an instruction from the manager.
van Dijk is a great defender and not overrated (though his performance has dropped a bit this season), because he can play comfortably in a high line defending 1v1 or even 1v2 situation. Ramos, on the other hand, is nowhere near him in terms of defensive ability as he struggles to defend without protection, as you all suggest.
He was signed by Arrigo Sacchi who saw his natural development as a DM. What happened was football changed radically in a short span instead, so the qualities Sacchi saw in him as a DM were instead those needed by a CB
Of those 4 times one was intentional on Mourinho's instructions btw.
The second goal in that video is in fact a perfect example of what he's had to deal with most of his career actually. Ramos does the right thing coming out to pick up Rakitic there. The problem is Casemiro doesn't rotate, while Sergio himself expects him to. Poor communication would be my guess
But now the qualities you'd want in a DM (someone who can win the ball, have that defensive nous AND build the play/be good on the ball) he has in abundance.
He makes an occasional blunder in matches, but which defender does not?
The sum total of a player's attributes and performances should judge any individual footballer, and not just what his primary role is. Ramos is a beast in that regard - defensive qualities, leadership, goals scored, spot-kicks, trophies won...
I don't know of another defender in the last 10 years that ticks all these boxes better than Ramos does.
The sum total of a player's attributes and performances should judge any individual footballer, and not just what his primary role is. Ramos is a beast in that regard - defensive qualities, leadership, goals scored, spot-kicks, trophies won...
I don't know of another defender in the last 10 years that ticks all these boxes better than Ramos does.
Not so sure about that. In a pinch maybe. He was used as a DM by Ancelotti for CL games against Atletico and Juventus back in '15. Against Atletico the move proved decisive as he dominated the midfield battles and essentially reduced them to defend and hope for penalties. But against juventus it was a fatal mistake as they exploited his unfamiliarity with the role an especially his inability to adapt to the shorter reaction times required
Top player. Best of his generation. From where he started as a rash youngster with a bad disciplinary record (he never sorted out the last bit...) his career came a long way.
Bit of a weak generation of CB's to the best of, mind.
Bit of a weak generation of CB's to the best of, mind.
He has quite a few of those brain fart moments, getting an extraordinary amount of red cars for example.
But then there is the big game Ramos, who almost never lets his team down and instead often makes the decisive difference. I think without him Real has two less CL titles and this season he has been top notch in the decisive moments of this season.
Maybe he hasn't been the most consistent defender in the world ever. Maybe not the smartest either but I think in terms of pure title winning mentality and performances there are very few defenders on his level.
ALL defenders need a level of protection...Vidic or John Terry would get shredded by a fast, skilful attacker if they where allowed to get the ball down and run at them with space in behind. That doesn't mean to say they're bad defenders, far from it, it means they have other standout attributes which make them world-class. The point of 'tactics' and team-mates is to compensate for their weaknesses and accentuate their strengths
Ramos' big strength is that he can do both. I can only think of Vincent Kompany, Rio Ferdinand and Virgil van Dijk who have been equally blessed with that level of physical strength, pace, positional nous, aerial ability, ball-playing skills and agility. That puts him in an elite bracket for me.
I could just save myself the time by listing all of his career honours and the managers who've continued to pick him from age 19 to 35 but hey....it's a discussion and that feels like cheating :-)
Well as you say, that was mainly due to his unfamiliarity in the role... if he'd played there for years though and that was his position I'd think he'd be a monster there (again not saying that he's not at CB, just that he could possibly have had just as good a career in a different position, such is his talent and skill set)
Casemiro was available and he had the pace and energy to pick up Rakitic. Why on earth did Ramos leave his backline and expect others to rush extra yards back to cover and fill the gap for him? Who caused the confusion? Who was supposed to be the leader at the back responsible for communication? More importantly it's not an one-off incident. He did that in his entire career (especially in recent years), making reckless decisions and expecting others to make up for his mess.
If this is an example of what Ramos has to deal with most of his career, it's a pretty bad one. There's a complete back four with the LB in position, not that he has to deal with multiple attackers on his own as many have suggested. The midfield trio were also hardworking in tracking back, not that they only focus in attack and leave the defence exposed.
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This. He’s an absolute animal on the pitch.
Serial winner, leader, steps up in important moments. Won everything.
What a player he has been.
When he played well it's because he's a beast in midfield and he dominated the midfield battles. When he didn't it's because he's just unfamiliar with his role. These double standards are really annoying.
I agree, but we never had the need to develop him as a DM. We turned him into a RWB and he was the third best in world for years, with only all time monsters maicon and dani alves being better, where he won a WC being one of the best players in the tournament. Then back to CB where again he has been one of the best in the world for years
Right now, he lacks the skillset to be a top DM though
Casemiro is late, hence Sergio has to step up to make up for him
That depends on whether Sergio did fail to communicate, as opposed to Casemiro simply failing to follow his instructions, or not hearing him. But either way, the moment he steps up Casemiro shouldn't particularly need to be told what he's supposed to do
That doesn't happen nearly as often as you pretend
You're shown a situation in which his DM fails to do his job properly and blaming it on him. What that is indicative of is how often he had to make up for either individual mistakes by a teammate or structural mistakes by the team.
There is simply not another defender who's been asked to defend an entire 1/4th of the pitch virtually by himself as consistently as him
No, when he played well it's because Atletico didn't expect it, didn't plan for it, and he was well suited to the kind of midfield battles Atletico generally wanted against us, which were the kind of situations he had to deal with in that game
Juventus on the other end expected it, planned for it, and specifically targeted him based on his lack of familiarity with the role. They pressed him whenever he received the ball fronting our goal, pulled him out of position with overlapping runs by midfielders and forwards, etc
If Casemiro was too late to pick up Rakitic in your opinion, how on earth was he able to cover and fill the gap for Ramos' position, which was much much further away from him? He was not late, he had more than enough time and pace to pick up Rakitic, but Ramos made the rash decision to commit (almost a personal signature for him) even the ball was almost 40 yards out with no threat at all.
The basic principle playing as a defender is to maintain a straight backline alongside your teammates. The moment Ramos chose to step up, he created that exploitable gap and made an error, whether his teammates could cover for him was irrelevant. Lucky for him his teammates make up for him most of the time, or sometimes he makes up for himself by getting some bookings, but it's inevitable that some of them would eventually lead to goals as in this situation.
When you consider the protection players like VVD get from the Liverpool midfield and the lack of in Ramos Madrid you can understand why Ramos will get more exposed
You have the entire Liverpool 11 who are willing to run for 90mins to protect each other, when you watch Liverpool most of the balls that get past their defence are hopeful long balls which VVD can mop up easily. When you watch Madrid especially the left side where you have Ronaldo Kroos and Marcelo. 3 players not very good in the defensive work, Ramos has to do the covering. with Ronaldo and Marcelo caught upfront and Kroos jogging leisurely back
I bet VVD will look worse if he is to replace Ramos in that Madrid lineup and cover for 3 players
I have seen Ramos play in a low block defence vs Guardiola Bayern and he was impeccable. Bayern hardly got a shot on target. This is what players like Terry Canavaro enjoyed for most of their career, A tactic that prioritized the defence
Even if we accepted that as valid, basic doesn't imply unique.
A team creates an exploitable gap if it chooses not to press the unmarked potential passer when playing a defensive high line. Ramos took the right decision.
Speak to me about Marcelo, Kroos, Ronaldo making up for him defensively most of the time and not the other way around, and when you are finished we can speak about the best defensive team in Europe this year under a different setup.
I'm really shocked with your post, especially when you use Liverpool as an example. Klopp deploying three hardworking midfielders doesn't necessarily mean they protect the defence well. In fact, they press really high up the pitch and leave the defence much more exposed than any other team. This is why they had kept conceding goals until the introduction of van Dijk upgraded the team. Just ask yourself, how often does Ramos face a situation like this?
Context - as always.
Ramos' qualities are ideal for a top team, a team competing for the biggest prizes: his leadership traits and his uncanny knack for stepping up in big games, scoring crucial goals - and so forth - makes him a great player, no question about it.
However, the idea that he would shine for a Pulis team (as suggested above, unless I misread that) seems utterly unfounded. He isn't a great defender, period. He's far too rash, his positioning is questionable - and...everything others have listed here time and again.
None of that means he's a shite defender (he obviously isn't - but he clearly doesn't compare favourably to actual GOAT level defenders in terms of, well, defensive qualities). Just like Koeman, for instance, who was mentioned above. Koeman isn't considered a historically great player because he was on Baresi's level as a defender. He obviously wasn't - but he had other qualities, which elevated the teams he played in significantly, teams that won the biggest prizes (and/but were loaded with top level players in other positions). And that's Ramos, essentially.
Baresi in a Pulis team would still be just about the best defender you could hope for (in terms of positioning, anticipation, reading of the game AND leadership) in addition to being a more than useful ball player/passer, etc.
Ramos in a Pulis team? He'd be great in the dressing room and very dangerous on corners, no doubt.
Ramos' qualities are ideal for a top team, a team competing for the biggest prizes: his leadership traits and his uncanny knack for stepping up in big games, scoring crucial goals - and so forth - makes him a great player, no question about it.
However, the idea that he would shine for a Pulis team (as suggested above, unless I misread that) seems utterly unfounded. He isn't a great defender, period. He's far too rash, his positioning is questionable - and...everything others have listed here time and again.
None of that means he's a shite defender (he obviously isn't - but he clearly doesn't compare favourably to actual GOAT level defenders in terms of, well, defensive qualities). Just like Koeman, for instance, who was mentioned above. Koeman isn't considered a historically great player because he was on Baresi's level as a defender. He obviously wasn't - but he had other qualities, which elevated the teams he played in significantly, teams that won the biggest prizes (and/but were loaded with top level players in other positions). And that's Ramos, essentially.
Baresi in a Pulis team would still be just about the best defender you could hope for (in terms of positioning, anticipation, reading of the game AND leadership) in addition to being a more than useful ball player/passer, etc.
Ramos in a Pulis team? He'd be great in the dressing room and very dangerous on corners, no doubt.
....because the whole reason sergio comes out to close down rakitic is meant to slow him down and buy the seconds casemiro would need to sprint back into the gap and get into a defensive position....
Instead, Casemiro keeps walking and watching the ball, never getting back into the play(which starts with him already behind the play)
What's more dangerous: come out, slow down barcelona's attack and allow our midfielders to track back into defensive positions, or allow rakitic to turn the corner and create a two-on-two down the middle, with an unmarked ball carrier fronting the goal? If you look in the middle, Modric, who was also behind the play, is able to track back and help Varane on Suarez, entirely thanks to the seconds Ramos buys by coming out on Rakitic. There's clearly enough time for Casemiro to sprint back. He just doesn't. That's on him
I mean...this begs the question: how many times have you actually watched real madrid play over the last 6 years?
Ramos has been consistently exceptional whenever we've been forced into defending in a low block. It's a big part of the reason why we won 4 CL in 5 years
He's not Baresi no. No one is
I know. But we're talking about all-time here - at least that's what I'm talking about.
Is Ramos a great player, historically? Yes, obviously. His achievements cannot be dismissed.
Is he a great defender, historically? No, he isn't.
I mean, he is a defender, and he's an all time great
Heh! Yeah, fair enough.I mean, he is a defender, and he's an all time great
Let's put it like this, then: the thread title asks whether he's the most overrated "CB" in history. And the answer to that is: no, he isn't.
Ronald Koeman is also a "CB" (of some description). And he wasn't a great "defender" either if the benchmark is Baresi (to use him as an example again - there are, of course, others).
So, can you be a historically great "CB" without being a historically great "defender"? Yes - you can. And Ramos is an example of that.
How often does Ramos face 2 vs 1? Regularly much more than any defender in Liverpool would. This is actually regular Madrid football except when they are playing Barcelona and have to bunker
This Sisokko situation was possible because Sisoko is a poor shooter. A good shooter of the ball will at least hit target. Sisoko didn't. Before VVD they didnt have Fabinho as well and didnt have Alisson, Trent and Robertson were just getting into the team
Take away VVD from this Liverpool team and they will still face less shots, I watched Bayern play Liverpool last season without VVD and we didn't get a single shot on goal. With Matip and Fabinho in Central defence
Casemiro could have easily closed down and slowed down Rakitic with his pace and energy. Why did Ramos have to go out of position to do the same but creating an obvious hole in defence and so much confusion at the same time? Yes there are moments that CBs have to come out with DMs dropping back, but not this situation where they had a set back four and two midfielders tracking back, let alone the ball had just crossed the halfway line and all other Barcelona players were tightly marked.
Again, if it's an one-off incident I'd give Ramos a benefit of the doubt, but it clearly isn't. He just has a tendency to make rash decisions and get drawn out of position very often, thanks to his poor decision making, defensive awareness and positioning. In the first goal of that clip he decided to give up several Barcelona players and go for Busquets. At 1:20 of the following clip he again overcommitted even when there was a midfield teammate ahead of him. There're plenty of similar scenarios and it's just a bad habit for him.
Another goal.
Guy should have just become a striker 
Third defender to surpass the 10 goals tally (he has 11) in La Liga ever. Only Hierro and Koeman had done it before.
Late to the party but that video is poor evidence, he stepped out and another player dropped in the hole, exactly like other high pressing teams do and he's been coached to do. You see it at City and Barca all the time where someone sprints out to press and continues because they have running momentum and someone drops in to cover.
time samped. Van Dijk making that exact mistake vs City, bombing out in the press to tackle Sterling, being played around and LIverpool having a player think its Wijnaldum trying to fill the hole.
What? You mean the one in your video? No it's a completely different scenario. In your clip Liverpool had the possession and van Dijk was trying out to play out from the back, but he got caught (it's still his mistake though) and he could never return to his position in time. He was not bombing out to press Sterling, it's the other way round. Refer to #593 for more details.
Whenever Benzema is absent and with Jovic in mental turmoil, I think that’s exactly what they should do. His linkup play and positioning would probably be crap, but he’d be good for a goal a game.Guy should have just become a striker
Madrid would wish they had Ramos tonight