agreed. VVD might be able to compare himself to Ramos if he carries on at that standard for the next 6-7 years.
I disagree. VVD does not even come close. Ramos never backs away from a challenge as VVD does regularly. Ramos will throw his body on the line for his team
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeh.
Yeah, purely from a defensive perspective Stam was better, but I'd take Van Dijk over him for the complete package. Frank de Boer conplemented Stam brilliantly though.
Not the best defensive CB, but he makes admirable last ditch tackles from time to time like the one on Messi in the most recent El Clasico. Copes very well in a Madrid team which always plays the high line so got to give him credit for that too.
VVD's mobility, balance, reading of the game, passing and skill on the ball is very impressive for a big man. Even against the all-time great PL CBs, I'd say he compares favorably and wouldn't just be an honorable mention.
disagree, the 2 legs in 08 were a Rio masterclass where he was keeping up with a prime etoo for speed. the 2 final defeats were remembered more for overall team failures and midfield getting dominated than anything to do with rio and vidic. a disingenuous argument to make ramos look good if ever there was 1.
They're not mutually exclusive statements. Rio was great in 2008 (when we set up very defensively) but struggled alongside Vidic in 2009 and 2011. Similarly, you can find games against Barcelona where Ramos has been flawless and games where he's struggled. The point he was making was that the fact he has struggled in some games against Barcelona is not good evidence that he's not an elite defender, because all elite defenders have had exactly the same experience against a team of that calibre.
don't see where the exclusivity belongs, people are not using only those games though to make the suggestion that he may be overrated - which i do believe he is - nor is his example to try to justify that line of argument valid. ramos sample size of clasicos is a lot larger than the times rio and vida played against them rendering the comparison moot, particularly when the mistakes he made in a number of them are quite high profile unlike our duo.
Agreed we don't have a great sample size to judge Rio from, but from what we do have, the simple analysis is that the only time he played well was when he played in a team with an incredibly low defensive line and two lines in front of him that were built to nullify Barcelona's attack and hit them on sporadic counter attacks. When he played in a slightly more open team, he was left exposed.
this is where the comparison fails on 2 counts. there isn't enough of a sample size to conclude 1 way making it only an exercise in false equivalence. the other is that the headline of any of our 2 finals defeats isn't by any stretch of imagination rio or vidic making mistakes, the failings were tactical and on the entire team, unlike quite a few of the gaffes Ramos had made. you could turn your logic against itself and claim that Ramos benefitted from playing in a counter attacking system which is what Madrid exclusively used when they played barca after a point.
Such as?
I can't be bothered to give you example after example and compilation after compilation to illustrate my point. Let's just say that that reputation exists for a reason, even you might be able to accept at least that.
The reputation? You mean the red cards? Sure, that is an issue. THE issue, pretty much. If he had better control over himself we'd be talking about him in the same breath as Baresi at this point
there is no false equivalence, someone else brought those 2 into this discussion and i only pointed out the fallacy in that comparison. as for the rest, it is but obvious that when you have a much larger sample size you are bound to have more of both examples that will prove and disprove what you want to look for. depending on where you come from of course. do you think red cards and rashness as also defensive lapses are worth overlooking which is what he is famous for apart from the goals he scores out of sheer force of personality?
Funny how I completely agree with your opinion on certain players (Kimmich) while totally disagreeing about others (Ramos).
Boateng has won a World Cup and two trebles. He is a legend, not as much as Ramos but still a legend nonetheless.Op goes to mention the likes of Laporte and Boateng among all time greats
You know what they say Attack is the best defense but when your attack is as shit as theirs has been for the past 2 years your defense will get exposed.
He was part of the reason they could outscore opponents. Their defense and attack didn't exist in parallel universes. When not attacking well, any team that doesn't play with a deep line will struggle defensively in the current footballing trend.
Yeah but that wasn't cause of his amazing defensive abilites
I remember reading after our defeat to Barcelona in 2011, one of the areas Fergie identified to catch up to them was deploying faster and more mobile defenders to push higher up and squeeze teams like Barcelona. Rio and especially Vidic were simply incapable of playing that way. Did it make them bad defenders? Of course not. Just unsuitable to every stylistic and tactical demand. Ramos is the best defender at that particular defensive requirement. Results and trophies suggest that it is a requirement that is more likely to be successful at the highest level in the last decade at least. That was not necessarily the case before.
Madrid never had a great defensive record, even when they swept all before them in Europe.
