But we have to take into consideration that Mata ain't in the side for his defensive skills. He's in there for his craft and to create a little bit of magic. Aye, a luxury player if you like. As long as the DM and the back line stay switched on it'll be fine for Mata to concentrate on being a purely attacking type of player. Neither CR or Berba were expected to get back, and we still won things.
Is there room for RvP and Rooney in the same starting 11?
- Thread starter Wibble
- Start date
If Rooney was, for some reason (flatmates, same-sex marriage, adoption, etc) seen as van Gaal's 'favourite' and guaranteed starter, I'm quite sure that there'd be absolutely no discussion along the lines of "can RVP and Rooney work together?". As @RuudTom83 said, when you look at how other teams can fit in these players, why are we moaning?
We often envy the likes of Madrid and Barcelona and their attacking options yet because of what I think is part of this Rooney hate obsession, we pretend any more than one forward would somehow be an intolerable kowtowing of principles.
We often envy the likes of Madrid and Barcelona and their attacking options yet because of what I think is part of this Rooney hate obsession, we pretend any more than one forward would somehow be an intolerable kowtowing of principles.
Does Rooney function with anyone in a two striker formation?
He's such a good football player that every now and then he will pick a beautiful pass or make the right run. Overall though he has never really formed a good partnership with anyone be it with us or with England.
Maybe I'm spoiled from the memories of Cole&Yorke
He's such a good football player that every now and then he will pick a beautiful pass or make the right run. Overall though he has never really formed a good partnership with anyone be it with us or with England.
Maybe I'm spoiled from the memories of Cole&Yorke
Rooney has been a goal-scoring stalwart for us for 10 years with a list of strikers that includes, but is not limited to; Hernandez, Berbatov, RVP, Welbeck, RvN, Saha and Tevez. Not really sure where this 'Rooney isn't good in a striker partnership' has come from. I suspect it's from the same place where suddenly Rooney isn't a versatile forward player ever since he fell out with Fergie.
Doubt there's been anyone in the PL era that's had more success in different strike partnerships than Rooney
Yeah, I think he's an absolutely terrible defender personally. Obviously it's not the biggest issue when he's so good with the ball but I feel like you're playing with 10 players when the other teams has got it. Van Gaal might see it as an issue.
Then again Mourinho also is hot on the tracking back thing and he tolerates Hazard who is the laziest player in that respect I've seen in a long while
Maybe, I dunno, I thought he did a decent amount of defensive work, though I think he is better as the spare man defensively rather having a clear person to track. The addition of Herrera and if we're really lucky Vidal should help though as Carrick aside no one really gives much defensive cover in midfield to allow the attacking players some slack.
I think Mata's bigger issue, although less than for someone like Kagawa, is that when the play isn't going through them they don't often do as much as they could to stay in the game. I.e look to run in behind when the ball isn't coming to feet. That's probably our biggest issue with everyone gelling, everyone, particularly Mata, Rooney and Kagawa keep wanting the ball to feet, not enough of them are making runs off the ball.
No they can't. Their link up play is not natural. We need more pace a front three of Rooney Mata and RVP is too slow.
I don't personally think Van Gaal will be able to fit him into his preferred starting 11, particularly with Mata here who I think would give the side greater balance in the centre. But then Van Gaal is a mad genius so will quite possibly find a way.
It is more defensive than the very attacking 4-2-1-3 Louis van Gaal has stated to be his preference, he used 5-3-2 formation because he felt the netherlands to be weak defensively and so it was necessary.
You are saying United are not good enough for 4-2-1-3, I'm saying we are a better side than you're giving credit to.
So you admit that Mata is better no 10, but you want to move him wide to accommodate Rooney centrally? That’s the worst scenario and will not happen IMO. Also, I would rather play Januzaj on the right than Mata.
-----Back 5------
--Herrera-Carrick--
Januzaj – Mata – X
--------RVP-------
X-Rooney, Welbeck, Kagawa.
This is our best setup with current squad. Now, in X we can play Rooney, Welbeck or Kagawa with similar effect as no one is naturally a left winger. Rooney did well as LW in the past, but I think that both Welbeck and Kagawa will be used quite often in LVG system.
So, in conclusion, Rooney should be playing as a striker or left winger. Surely van Gaal will find him a role in the team, but I am not sure if our best 11 includes him at this particular moment.
It’s quite obvious that RVP, Mata and Rooney are our best players, but this season is about finding balance in the team and in my opinion any team with all of them is unbalanced. But I don’t really care, I trust van Gaal in that matter.
Good post.
People putting Rooney on the wing in their line-ups are forgetting that just over 12 months ago he publicly fell out with SAF and wanted to leave because he wasn't being played in his position (despite the fact that he only played around 5 games in CM all season).
We all saw how he played on the wing for England. He's hardly going to magically start enjoying it here.
Holy shit, what the feck are you talking about? I never said United weren't good enough for a 4-2-1-3.. I never even mentioned anything about that. This is mental.
The only thing I've tried to do is explain to you that a 3-5-2 doesn't have to be defensive, there are numerous fantastic sides that have played that system in an offensive way - Juve, Brazil, Roma - but you've just seen Netherlands play it defensively and have convinced yourself that's the way it 'has' to be played. It's completely retarded. You can have defensive 4-4-2's or 4-3-3's, and offensive 3-5-2's. You really don't know what your talking about. Even in this World Cup the likes of Chile have played a 3-5-2 in an attacking way, but you just won't stop banging on about Holland.
I was critical of a poster's decision to suggest United play 5-3-2 since 4-2-1-3 will do the job.
I never said United weren't good enough for a 4-2-1-3.. I never even mentioned anything about that. This is mental.
The only thing I've tried to do is explain to you that a 3-5-2 doesn't have to be defensive, there are numerous fantastic sides that have played that system in an offensive way - Juve, Brazil, Roma - but you've just seen Netherlands play it defensively and have convinced yourself that's the way it 'has' to be played. It's completely retarded. You can have defensive 4-4-2's or 4-3-3's, and offensive 3-5-2's. You really don't know what your talking about. Even in this World Cup the likes of Chile have played a 3-5-2 in an attacking way, but you just won't stop banging on about Holland.
The poster suggested 5-3-2 should be played by Louis van Gaal, of course I am going to draw comparisons to Holland, people wouldn't even be suggesting the formation had Louis van Gaal not used it with them! So we must understand the reason he used the formation.
He is using this formation with the view of playing counter attacking football, he himself said he tried it because he felt it was the best way to play Spain but also because of his team's defensive limitations.
If he wants to play offensive, possession based football with United because he feels the team is good enough then why would he use an attacking version of 5-3-2 when he could just use 4-2-1-3? Even with Holland when he has decided he needs to be more attacking he has switched to 4-2-1-3!
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe 4-2-1-3 isn't Louis van Gaal's preferred system, maybe he loves counter attacking and not possession based football, maybe he isn't using 5-3-2 because of an injury to Strootman and his team's defensive limitations, maybe he didn't feel the formation was the best way to play Spain with what he had at his disposal.
You believe what you want.
Two points I would like to give my opinion on.
1) He did fall out with SAF but it became apparent big clubs don't really want to sign him, Chelsea did but now they have Diego Costa, a club will not want him on the wages he is on therefore he has a choice to sit on the bench and be back up to RVP or adapt his game to the wing.
2) Playing the wing for Hodgson is different for Louis van Gaal. Louis calls his 3 forward players his '3 strikers', he expects the LW and RW to be very attacking and reduces their defensive responsibilities, they are not a LM or even a LAM but a proper LW, a very attack minded player. Rooney would be better suited to the wing in Louis van Gaal's team than Hodgson, Moyes or even SAF because of the role he would be given.
That said, he will face competition from the likes of Welbeck and Nani.
Louis van Gaal might even decide to play Rooney as a shadow striker ahead of Juan Mata.
You're genuinely mental. This is the conversation we had - someone suggested we play a 3-5-2, then you replied to them and have kept saying it's a defensive/counter attacking formation. All I did was try and correct you on that - it isn't a defensive formation, you can play it in an attacking or defensive way as you can any system and I've given you three of four examples of teams who have proved that. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about - you've clearly just seen Holland play it defensively and then convinced yourself that's the way it has to be played.
There really, really is. And not only that, but our chances of winning another European Cup any time soon could demand such a combination.
We managed to fit Tevez, Roanldo and Rooney in one team together in around 2008. And, you know, it worked well.
We don't necessarily "need" Rooney in the same was we used to need him, with players like Mata, Januzaj, RVP, Welbeck (if he doesn't leave) Kagawaa (if he doesn't leave), Nani (if he doesnt leave), but...
The problem isn't combining Rooney and RVP in my opinion, it's getting Rooney to accept he may have to play not as the main striker, or to relearn old positions.
We managed to fit Tevez, Roanldo and Rooney in one team together in around 2008. And, you know, it worked well.
We don't necessarily "need" Rooney in the same was we used to need him, with players like Mata, Januzaj, RVP, Welbeck (if he doesn't leave) Kagawaa (if he doesn't leave), Nani (if he doesnt leave), but...
The problem isn't combining Rooney and RVP in my opinion, it's getting Rooney to accept he may have to play not as the main striker, or to relearn old positions.
I think that Rooney will start the season playing (not in the bench) and then it will depend how good he plays and how is his attitude. He is still a good player and I think there is a place on the team for him. Can we play both of them? I think yes, Van Gaal can play any player in any position he wants and both Rooney and RVP are versatile players. Will both of them start the majority of matches? Hard to know, Van Gaal is one of the most unpredicted manager.
Not this again.. its been done a million times. And yes they can.
There is room, but it means LVG changing our strategy a lot in a way that I can't ever imagine will be worth it in terms of results. Look at Robben's performances for Holland compared to RVP. Now imagine removing Robben and playing two RVP up front instead and that is how a 3-5-2/5-3-2 will look with Rooney and RVP up front.
No movement, two players centrally both being rather useless except as finishing chances that others created for them. They aren't going to provide the width and drive which Robben does in the RVP/Robben partnership as neither of RVP/Rooney has that in them. We already have maybe the worlds best finisher inside the box in RVP, why do we need another one to help him do his job?
What we don't have is a great midfield, but we want to remove one of the midfielders and replace him with a striker. It is just contradictory, if any part of our team needs as much help as possible it will be the midfield.
No movement, two players centrally both being rather useless except as finishing chances that others created for them. They aren't going to provide the width and drive which Robben does in the RVP/Robben partnership as neither of RVP/Rooney has that in them. We already have maybe the worlds best finisher inside the box in RVP, why do we need another one to help him do his job?
What we don't have is a great midfield, but we want to remove one of the midfielders and replace him with a striker. It is just contradictory, if any part of our team needs as much help as possible it will be the midfield.
While I completely agree that 3-5-2(5-3-2) isn't defensive or offensive more than other systems, I think that it is more difficult to implement it in that way to dominate all matches. I think that 4-3-3 (4-5-1) are more easy to be implemented well, and I think that our players are more suited to those formations. While 3-5-2 will make it possible to play RVP, Rooney and Mata on their favorite positions, it will limit the number of minutes our other 10 or so attacking players have. Also, we would need at-least another 2 CB in order to play 3-5-2 consistently.
I never said United weren't good enough for a 4-2-1-3.. I never even mentioned anything about that. This is mental.
The only thing I've tried to do is explain to you that a 3-5-2 doesn't have to be defensive, there are numerous fantastic sides that have played that system in an offensive way - Juve, Brazil, Roma - but you've just seen Netherlands play it defensively and have convinced yourself that's the way it 'has' to be played. It's completely retarded. You can have defensive 4-4-2's or 4-3-3's, and offensive 3-5-2's. You really don't know what your talking about. Even in this World Cup the likes of Chile have played a 3-5-2 in an attacking way, but you just won't stop banging on about Holland.
I think that it is a very safe bet that we will play the majority of games with a 4-2-3-1 formation (or some variation of it).
I don't think there is room for the both of them in the starting 11, no. So if I had my way, I'd cash in on Rooney (and probably Hernandez) and spend the money on midfield.
Have you even read the thread title? You say I do not know what I am talking about yet I am discussing RVP and Rooney in the same starting 11, you are trying to have a conversation that relates to something completely different.
I'm glad you quoted me since we can now put things into context for you.
As mentioned, a poster tried to use 5-3-2 to fit Rooney and RVP into the same team, you keep going on about these different attacking sides that have used an offensive version of 5-3-2 however you don't actually factor into account the manager, Louis van Gaal, and his reasons for using 5-3-2 with his dutch squad.
So as I mentioned and as you quoted, 5-3-2 as used by Louis van Gaal is to play counter attacking football preferably against a team with a high line and it is used to deal with an injury to Strootman and his team's defensive limitations.
If as you are suggesting we were to play not counter attacking but offensive, possession based football, why on earth would he want to use 5-3-2 as opposed to 4-2-1-3? The manager has stated his preference is 4-2-1-3, in this tournament when he has decided to go more attacking he has switched to 4-2-1-3.
If you accept 4-2-1-3 as Louis van Gaal's preference for attacking, possession based football then you must accept when 5-3-2 is discussed as a potential formation for United in this thread, it will not involve playing attacking, possession based football since if that were the case then it would be 4-2-1-3.
If you want to discuss Louis van Gaal's tactics in relation to RVP and Rooney then do it, if you want to make the conversion about something else then start your own thread. How other sides have used 5-3-2 has nothing to do with how Louis van Gaal will go about fitting RVP and Rooney into the same starting 11, since he is the manager we must look at how he prefers to play football.
In my opinion Louis van Gaal will not use 5-3-2 to play possession based offensive football, for this it will be 4-2-1-3.
If you disagree then that's your opinion man.
I agree with the latter two points - I'm not saying we'll definitely play this way by the way, I was just responding to the criticism of the actual system. Van Gaal might play a 3-5-2 but it would depend on some more signings - I think there are some indications he's thinking about it though. Vidal would be absolutely perfect in a 3-5-2, whereas in a partnership with Herrera behind Mata I think it would sacrifice some of his all round game. If that interest is real it would suit a 3-5-2 IMO, same with Vermaelen - I don't think he's a great defender but as the ball player in a back three he's really suited to that role.
I agree that it limits the chance of the other attackers.. Although at the same time I'm not sure it'll be a big issue because I would happily see the wingers moved on and although I'd be disappointed to see Hernandez leave, I think for the sake of his own career he'll try and transfer away this season. Valencia would suit a wingback role, in which case it's really only Welbeck, Januzaj and Kagawa missing out which isn't a lot. You could imagine Van Gaal using his players creatively as well, Sneijder last night played as one of the deeper two midfielders in a 3-5-2 as opposed to the tip in an AM role, which is something he could replicate at United.
I probably agree with some of the first comment - a simple 4-2-3-1 could well be easier to play than a back three. Not sure on that, but it's possible. I disagree that it suits our players more though, mostly because of the Rooney, Mata, Van Persie conundrum in this thread. We also have really poor wingers generally, so a move away from system with wide men would be welcome IMO. Plus, I think we have potentially excellent fullbacks for those wingback roles, Rafael is already there and whilst Shaw could improve in attack he's got the physicality to bomb up the left flank all game.
Yeah, I think we should end this conversation because you're making me lose the will to live. You said the system is defensive, it's counter attacking, you need a pacy striker and that it only works when the opponent plays a high line.
None of those things are true and it's been proven numerous times. It isn't inherently more defensive than the 4-2-1-3 you keep banging on about. As to why Van Gaal might prefer it, then as has been mentioned in this thread he may think it suits our players more.
RVP and Rooney are still United's strengths! the likes of Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj haven't even proved they can play half a dozen games while retaining a level of consistency yet.
So any manager that just throws his hands up in the air at the prospect of managing a team with Rooney and RVP in it! will find it very hard to manage any elite/top team.
Big teams have lots of players with big egos, luckily for United LVG has a huge ego to match any player in our squad.
I said in another thread the likes of Welbeck, Kagawa, Young, Fellaini...have far more to worry about under LVG's reign than Rooney.
Next season is going to be so much fun.
So any manager that just throws his hands up in the air at the prospect of managing a team with Rooney and RVP in it! will find it very hard to manage any elite/top team.
Big teams have lots of players with big egos, luckily for United LVG has a huge ego to match any player in our squad.
I said in another thread the likes of Welbeck, Kagawa, Young, Fellaini...have far more to worry about under LVG's reign than Rooney.
Next season is going to be so much fun.
@rcoobc
This is a Manchester United thread, I was talking about those players performances in a United Shirt!
This is a Manchester United thread, I was talking about those players performances in a United Shirt!
I have mentioned this a few times already but I don't think you've properly read my posts so I will say it again, 5-3-2 as used by Louis van Gaal, as in the reasons for which he used it as opposed to his preferred 4-2-1-3.
The very first post to which you replied to was a tactical discussion about Manchester United, the tactics will be determined by Louis van Gaal.
If he plays 5-3-2 it will not be for possession based, offensive football, for this it will be 4-2-1-3, that's my opinion.
I am sorry you misunderstood the discussion I was having with another poster. To clear things up, I was not discussing formations in general but how Rooney and RVP will fit into Louis van Gaal's tactics, I thought this would be obvious as I (possibly wrongly) assumed you read the thread title and opening post.
I'm glad you have acknowledged your misunderstanding.
Nope not in my opinion. They should be alternated based on form and fitness.
The problem I have with mata rooney and RVP, none of them can get past players, its all ball to feet. This is where we need variety, none of them are quick. Now if you look at our 2 european cup winning sides of 1999 and 2008, both teams had pace
1999 front 4
beckham giggs yorke cole
beckham was the only one who did not have bursting pace, but he had energy. But giggs yorke and cole not only had acceleration and pace, but they also had energy. You combine the 4, they could rip apart allot of sides. With a bit of everything
2008 front 3
ronaldo rooney tevez
another attacking trio that all offered us something different, ronaldo's pace and power, rooney's acceleration and clever passing, adding tevez's energy was a good combo. So there was always a balance, and on an individual level they were lethal, they never fully clicked has a trio, but they clicked enough to win the big 2
Rooney mata RVP are pretty one paced, especially rooney. We will need something different, and I do not agree playing all 3 together, unless we have a wide player who can run the lines. And even that, I do not agree having mata or rooney on a wide position area. We are going to look very unbalanced has that wide birth position is going to be played infront of teams
Jesus, you're pretty insufferable. Firstly, this is complete bullshit - anyone who reads the conversation can see this is a thinly veiled attempt at covering up the fact you didn't have a clue what you were speaking about. Comments such as these are about the system itself, you quite clearly had in your head that a 3-5-2 was a defensive system.
Secondly it's an absolutely terrible cover up - far dafter than your initial view. What you're saying now is that Van Gaal won't play a 3-5-2 if he wants to play offensive football, he'll just use a 4-2-1-3 instead. This is completely absurd and what you have effectively done is transfer your ignorance of the formation onto Van Gaal. I'm not sure if you have the capacity to see this but it's exactly what you have done.
Unlike you, Van Gaal actually has some knowledge of different systems and he's well aware that he can play a 3-5-2 in an offensive way. If he needed some reminding he's just been in a World Cup group with Chile - hence Van Gaal doesn't have in his head "3-5-2 = defensive, 4-2-1-3 = attacking". The only one who thinks that black and white is yourself.
This statement is simply wrong - "If he plays 5-3-2 it will not be for possession based, offensive football" - Van Gaal is perfectly capable of playing a 3-5-2 similar to Juventus and looking to retain possession, or playing it like Brazil in '02 and utilise extremely attacking wingbacks. The fact that Holland have used the system to counter attack means absolutely nothing, no shit he's looked to counter attack with Robben in the side - it suits his players.
How about a 4-2-2-2 fornation
I prefer his favored 4-2-1-3 approach though, with Mata played behind the striker and two wide forward on either side.
De Gea
Rafael - Hummels( ) - Smailing - Shaw
Carvalho - Herrera
Mata ===== Januzaj
Van Persie - Rooney
Beit, Van Gaal may prefer Welbeck because the attack lacks pace and the penetrative runs. However, this lineup incoporate those three while have a form of natural outlet in Januzaj(so our overall game would not be so narrow). It should definetly suffice against the weaker teams in the league.Rafael - Hummels(
) - Smailing - ShawCarvalho - Herrera
Mata ===== Januzaj
Van Persie - Rooney
I prefer his favored 4-2-1-3 approach though, with Mata played behind the striker and two wide forward on either side.
Different formations do have different strengths and weaknesses and the 5-3-2 is very weak at dominating possession which is why Juventus with Pogba and Vidal centrally still don't dominate possession. They are fourth in Serie A, behind Roma, Fiorentina and Milan regardless of having by far the best first eleven in Italy. This is due to their formation being very direct and when they play in Europe they basically have a 51% possession in average which is the same as Basel and Galatasaray.
Formations affects how well suited they are for keeping possession in how many triangles you can create and how tight they can be at the same time. There is no wonder why managers who thinks dominating possession is important play a rare few formations it is simply because it optimizes the viable passing options at any given time through-out the game for the player who has the ball.
Of course playing a 5-3-2 doesn't mean you are going to lose possession heavily and just go out to counter-attack, but you sure as hell won't dominate possession to the extent that LVG/Guardiola likes to do.
Yes. We walked the title with the two in our team the season before last. I just think people have gone mad because we had a bad season last season, but part of that was due to not having RVP and Rooney fit at the same time and in the team together.
The question really is about RvP, Rooney and Mata and not just RvP and Rooney, isn't it?
Playing those three together can work, but I don't think we're going to see it very often. I suspect RvP won't see much action until October or so, while he rests from his summer duty and we walk through an easy part of the schedule. When he does come back, we'll likely see Roo get rested or pick up another 3-4 week injury. Being out of Europe altogether we're not going to face difficult opponents very often. We can afford to rest any two of those three against he likes of Stoke and West Ham, although it's unlikely that will happen.
For me, it comes down to who's in form when we face Chelsea, City and Arsenal. If all three are in form, Rooney will play left of Mata with RvP up top.
Hopefully we'll see much better defensively play this season so that Rooney doesn't feel compelled to chase the ball deep in his own half. He has a lot of games under his belt -- my guess is that he's close to 500, club and country, total -- and he'll need to be managed more carefully from here on out.
Playing those three together can work, but I don't think we're going to see it very often. I suspect RvP won't see much action until October or so, while he rests from his summer duty and we walk through an easy part of the schedule. When he does come back, we'll likely see Roo get rested or pick up another 3-4 week injury. Being out of Europe altogether we're not going to face difficult opponents very often. We can afford to rest any two of those three against he likes of Stoke and West Ham, although it's unlikely that will happen.
For me, it comes down to who's in form when we face Chelsea, City and Arsenal. If all three are in form, Rooney will play left of Mata with RvP up top.
Hopefully we'll see much better defensively play this season so that Rooney doesn't feel compelled to chase the ball deep in his own half. He has a lot of games under his belt -- my guess is that he's close to 500, club and country, total -- and he'll need to be managed more carefully from here on out.
The issue was whether a 3-5-2 is a counter attacking system - nothing you've said there proves that or is particularly relevant. Juventus had 56% possession last season - which was a low year for them. I wouldn't call that a system reliant on counter attacking. The year before they had the highest possession statistics in Serie A playing a 3-5-2 and in 2011/12 they averaged over 61.2% possession, more than the likes of Madrid or anyone in the Premiership.
If you're saying that a 3-5-2 isn't the perfect way to win a Spanish styled possession battle then I wouldn't disagree with you, but no one has said that it is and I doubt many United fans would want United to play that way. Van Gaal wouldn't want to either, Barcelona didn't play that way under Van Gaal with Rivaldo and Kluivert. Anyway, all I've said is that a 3-5-2 isn't an inherently defensive formation - it can be offensive - and that it isn't reliant on the counter attack.
Wondering why on earth would you make this thread? Seriously, this is the ultimate non-discussion.
Rooney and RVP were very good at playing together when SAF was still around. Go and look at some highlights of the 2012/2013 and then try to tell me 'their click is not natural' or other nonsense like that.
Louis van Gaal would probably say that this:
'Is a fairy stoopit kwestion.'
He would add:
'Two of the best players in the wurld. And yoo ask me ken they play to-getter?'
Rooney and RVP were very good at playing together when SAF was still around. Go and look at some highlights of the 2012/2013 and then try to tell me 'their click is not natural' or other nonsense like that.
Louis van Gaal would probably say that this:
'Is a fairy stoopit kwestion.'
He would add:
'Two of the best players in the wurld. And yoo ask me ken they play to-getter?'
Exactly.
Rooney of old and RVP at his best could easily play together.