I think this highlights my point. At the moment, in Europe, what really great sides are there? The quality has certainly dropped off for me.
Is this one of the worst PL seasons in recent times?
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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Nop it more like that lower teams are catching up very fast trough excellent youth work.
Top teams will be in trouble in 5-10 years , every team now have some money and youth
Top teams will be in trouble in 5-10 years , every team now have some money and youth
Liverpool, for one.
Hmmm
Liverpool and City best two sides in the world - both great sides.
It's normal that it has. Barcelona 10/11 are widely regarded as one of the best ever and they had exactly 1 great team to contend with. Smaller number of great sides doesn't say anything about Liverpool or City
Besides, it's still too early to say there aren't any other great sides around
Very good sides but not great yet. That said the point is who else in Europe is a great side at the moment?
In terms of what though?
In terms of a title challenge? It's one of the worst seasons, yes. If Liverpool win both of their games in hand over City then they will be 19 points ahead. The only time the league was won by that margin in the last 10 years was in 17-18 when City finished on 100 points and you finished 2nd. They are miles ahead and it's of similar ilk to that seasons too, there is no club in a position to challenge or the ones that could be are in a period of transition or collapse.
In terms of the 'big' clubs? Yes, but each 'big' club is still transitioning. If you look at them, the only club that is at the peak of their trajectory is Liverpool. City had their peak for the last two seasons and are now arguably in a downwards one. Spurs are the same, peaked for the last 2-3 seasons and are now in a downwards one. United and Arsenal are at the base of their trajectory and the decisions they make at the moment will either mean they go on an upwards one or stagnate at that level. Chelsea are in that weird fluctuant stage in the downwards trajectory where they have spikes of good and bad. The only traditional 'big' club that is at their peak trajectory right now is Liverpool and it's showing massively.
In terms of quality of football or tactically? I don't think so. It maybe appears that way to some because the so called 'bigger' teams are playing shite whereas previously it would be the big teams that played well and the smaller teams played poorly. Sheffield United, Wolves, Leicester, Brighton, Norwich and Villa have all played some good football at times and it's been nice to watch. Plus quality players are distributed quite nicely throughout the league now too. People like Traore/Jiminez, Maddison, Grealish are all very good players and a joy to watch.
Look at Europe too for example - All of our clubs have managed to make it through have they not? Despite our struggles. That doesn't happen often. Does that mean that the other leagues are weaker now or does it mean that our other clubs have managed to catch up to that level? Who knows. It's far too difficult to judge.
I think it's a mix of all variables - big clubs transitioning and lower clubs getting better due to money influx. We saw Leeds give Arsenal a bloody good game in the Cup. There are only 5/20 teams in the league that have won 2 games in a row in the last 5 games in the league. City, Liverpool, United, Watford and Southampton. 2 of those sides are top 2, 1 of those is constantly labelled as shite (United), 1 of those is in the relegation zone and 1 of those looked like they were going to be relegated this season. The competitiveness in the league is at an all time high, does it mean that the league is worse in general? Nah. Does it mean that our big clubs are worse? Yes, due to transitional reasons. Does it mean our small clubs are? Much better.
In terms of a title challenge? It's one of the worst seasons, yes. If Liverpool win both of their games in hand over City then they will be 19 points ahead. The only time the league was won by that margin in the last 10 years was in 17-18 when City finished on 100 points and you finished 2nd. They are miles ahead and it's of similar ilk to that seasons too, there is no club in a position to challenge or the ones that could be are in a period of transition or collapse.
In terms of the 'big' clubs? Yes, but each 'big' club is still transitioning. If you look at them, the only club that is at the peak of their trajectory is Liverpool. City had their peak for the last two seasons and are now arguably in a downwards one. Spurs are the same, peaked for the last 2-3 seasons and are now in a downwards one. United and Arsenal are at the base of their trajectory and the decisions they make at the moment will either mean they go on an upwards one or stagnate at that level. Chelsea are in that weird fluctuant stage in the downwards trajectory where they have spikes of good and bad. The only traditional 'big' club that is at their peak trajectory right now is Liverpool and it's showing massively.
In terms of quality of football or tactically? I don't think so. It maybe appears that way to some because the so called 'bigger' teams are playing shite whereas previously it would be the big teams that played well and the smaller teams played poorly. Sheffield United, Wolves, Leicester, Brighton, Norwich and Villa have all played some good football at times and it's been nice to watch. Plus quality players are distributed quite nicely throughout the league now too. People like Traore/Jiminez, Maddison, Grealish are all very good players and a joy to watch.
Look at Europe too for example - All of our clubs have managed to make it through have they not? Despite our struggles. That doesn't happen often. Does that mean that the other leagues are weaker now or does it mean that our other clubs have managed to catch up to that level? Who knows. It's far too difficult to judge.
I think it's a mix of all variables - big clubs transitioning and lower clubs getting better due to money influx. We saw Leeds give Arsenal a bloody good game in the Cup. There are only 5/20 teams in the league that have won 2 games in a row in the last 5 games in the league. City, Liverpool, United, Watford and Southampton. 2 of those sides are top 2, 1 of those is constantly labelled as shite (United), 1 of those is in the relegation zone and 1 of those looked like they were going to be relegated this season. The competitiveness in the league is at an all time high, does it mean that the league is worse in general? Nah. Does it mean that our big clubs are worse? Yes, due to transitional reasons. Does it mean our small clubs are? Much better.
A lot of people made this mistake when evaluating La Liga while Barcelona and Madrid were much better years ago.
Seeing that dynamic play out in this thread, where people are confusing competitiveness with quality.
This conversation should take nothing away from Liverpool, this side would be competitive in any PL season.
Is it not a clue that in the PL alone, within the top 6, the only two clubs with stable quality management are City and Liverpool? Shock horror the rest of the pack are struggling and trying to find their feet. Lampard, Arteta, Ole are all very inexperienced with fresh new coaching teams and Jose has been on the decline for a while..
I'd say there's been a downturn across Europe. I watch the Bundesliga matches and can hardly believe what I watching. Portugal while not being one of the top leagues had some some decent sides and players in the past now is very poor. For the first time we had CL teams all from the big 5 leagues, to me this is indication of a drop to a default level placing rather than strength.
That's true and I don't particularly rate this Juventus team in comparison to some great Juventus teams of the past
There’s no real top six this season there’s Liverpool and the rest. Most teams are inconsistent and it’s difficult to call games, the majority of team’s in the premier league can all beat each other on their day. Man City, Leicester and Chelsea have all dropped points when you wouldn’t expect them to.
CL and EL places is really open this season.
CL and EL places is really open this season.
There will always be sides in transition. Chelsea have the transfer ban. Arsenal suffering post legendary manager leaving syndrome. Tottenham reaching a dead end under Pochettino. Leicester haven’t the squad depth to be more than a top 4 side. City haven’t replaced Kompany allied to losing Laporte much weaker defensively. United in a state of transition arguably since 2013. Everton chopping and changing their manager. Liverpool despite no new significant signings are powering towards the league title.
potentially you are looking at another season ahead 20/21of a similar state of affairs. I don’t recall the league being any great shakes in 2012/13. The fact that Ole hasn’t United in a better position despite the perceived weakness of the league should be a concern to both fans and the board.
potentially you are looking at another season ahead 20/21of a similar state of affairs. I don’t recall the league being any great shakes in 2012/13. The fact that Ole hasn’t United in a better position despite the perceived weakness of the league should be a concern to both fans and the board.
I think Ole is only slightly underachieving but given injuries to Pogba, Mctominay and now Rashford that's to be expected. Unless you really expected the youngest side in the PL with a vastly inexperienced manager and in the process of a huge rebuild to be challenging for anything more than top 4..?
It's more about the massive points differences at the top end of the table. This is unprecedented in the PL era.
There was a huge gap between City & Utd in 17/18. There was 1 pt difference between City & Liverpool in 18/19. This though was mainly due to Liverpool being insanely lucky throughout the season allowing them to keep pace. City were really at least 15 pts better that season. There was a huge gap between 2nd & the rest. I'm expecting Liverpool to win this seasons title by at least 15 Pts ahead of City. There will also be a sizeable gap between City & the rest.
We have never had a title race featuring all the top 6 & we probably never will. There though has never been a point in the PL where 4 teams from the top 6 are as poor as they have been recently.
If a football team is missing players from it's starting 11 we would declare it a weaker team. The PL is now missing it's big hitting teams yet people are declaring the league stronger. It's bizarre.
Yesterday's game between Arsenal and Chelsea summed it up for me. Two big clubs playing but the quality was quite shocking from both sides. Most of games this season are like that. I am not talking about Liverpool who are miles ahead of everyone else but the rest of the league is mediocre and I don't believe it's because of bottom clubs becoming stronger, it's more to do with big clubs being shite.
Yeah it's shite. What happens on the top makes a league what it is. Nobody really cares about the middle-bottom half. It's just that Chelsea, us and Arsenal are shite this season. Even City (judging from last season's standard) and Liverpool have it too easy.
If you really care about what happens outside of the title challenge to determine if a league is healthy or entertaining, look at Ligue 1 2018/2019. PSG the clear winners ahead of everyone else but hey at least there weren't much gap between the teams in third and second place right? yeah, it didn't matter, They were never going to win the title regardless. I have never read about how PSG was simply the greatest team, no, everyone else was just much shittier than them. It's no different with Liverpool. You put them against the previous title winners and it wouldn't be easy. Fecking Liverpool fans. It's starting to irritate me.
They're good but They have it easy this season. It's so obvious to see.
If you really care about what happens outside of the title challenge to determine if a league is healthy or entertaining, look at Ligue 1 2018/2019. PSG the clear winners ahead of everyone else but hey at least there weren't much gap between the teams in third and second place right? yeah, it didn't matter, They were never going to win the title regardless. I have never read about how PSG was simply the greatest team, no, everyone else was just much shittier than them. It's no different with Liverpool. You put them against the previous title winners and it wouldn't be easy. Fecking Liverpool fans. It's starting to irritate me.
They're good but They have it easy this season. It's so obvious to see.
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The red card had a lot to do with the stretch of poor quality play. The players acted like the game was over. Once Arsenal scored it got good again.
How do you delete posts?
Not true. Around 2000-2001 we were winning the league in April by as much as 18 points, and the conversation was very much about how they had no competition to do so.
12/13 was worse, was pretty piss poor.
Fair enough
Well? @nore1975
The league is possibly stronger than its ever been but an u popular opinion possibly...
For all the credit we’ve got to give Liverpool they are hardly playing football at the level of City a year or two back.
I still believe after playing both those sides this season City when on form are the best football side in the world.
I’d argue the majority of the very top performances have been City in the league. Some of the worst has probably been City too so they are having a strange year.
They could be the finest side ever assembled that never win the Champion League but my money is on them or even PSG this year since the league is gone.
One of the two big oil clubs is gonna finally gonna climb the mountain eventually.
For all the credit we’ve got to give Liverpool they are hardly playing football at the level of City a year or two back.
I still believe after playing both those sides this season City when on form are the best football side in the world.
I’d argue the majority of the very top performances have been City in the league. Some of the worst has probably been City too so they are having a strange year.
They could be the finest side ever assembled that never win the Champion League but my money is on them or even PSG this year since the league is gone.
One of the two big oil clubs is gonna finally gonna climb the mountain eventually.
I think you are looking at the parity that was predicted when all premier league teams became flush with TV cash. Now there's going to be one or two elite sides which are managed and run exceptionally well and the rest of the middle of the field is going to muddled together owing to their shortcomings in either talent or injuries. Even managerial differences are not going to be huge when the likes of Southampton can pry away good managers from continental sides.
I actually think Ole is doing a decent job. My point is United fans are telling us it is a shit standard of premier league. So should Ole not being doing better. Regards injuries.
Pogba is trouble.
McTominay is no Keane or Ince.
Rashford is class but Ole hamstrung himself in selling Lukaku without a replacement
Because Most of those teams sit deep. The quality in the top is pretty bad outside of pool and city. The fact that those teams can give you a run for your money speaks to how bad the teams at the top are compared to how good the mid table is. This is a bottom 3 year in the past ten in regards to EPL strength. Liverpool and city are amazing, Leicester are decent but coming back down to earth...the rest are pretty mediocre.
This
There's something to it. United, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal disappointing on many levels, even City's spending doesn't look that much effective as Leicester bravely fighting for their place in PL's elite with modest approach to Tielemans and perhaps even Luke Shaw in future.
Definitely season of underdogs where Crystal Palace can kill any team. Massive treat to witness for neutrals and supporters of 75% of PL teams.
Definitely season of underdogs where Crystal Palace can kill any team. Massive treat to witness for neutrals and supporters of 75% of PL teams.
I don't think that the standard is poor in the league, credit to Liverpool they have been so consistent over the last 2 years they deserve to be that far ahead.
In respects to United, I think injuries have cost us alot. Not having Pogba has cost us 6-8 points I would say.
Ole did the right thing in not replacing a striker with a direct striker, paving the way for Greenwoood.
Where we have failed is to aquire other targets such as RW and CM because James was meant to be a squad player never an important first teamer.
Palace haven’t won since before Christmas and haven’t gotten more than a single in their last 7 matches.
They’re hyper defensive, but have come back down to earth in the worst way after have a small blip of a good run.
PL season? Try 70s or early Fergie years bad.
...and even after that they're on similar points level with Arsenal. For a club like Palace it's no small blip, but a great way to show their neighbours the borders of quality are somewhat fading.
I wonder what another small blip of form will bring them as they already had us almost by the balls in FA Cup final not so long ago.
Which again shows how awful arsenal are as oppose to how good crystal palace is.
Barca dropped points 2 weeks to go to the worst team in la liga, but that says a lot more about Barca at the time than Espanyol.
It's not a shit standard of PL it's just the top teams are all in transition (bar City and Liverpool).
Most rationale United fans understood this season was all part of the process to clear out previous signings, develop and promote a young squad, reduce the wage bill and move on some older players. With regards to league position the goal had to be top 4 but realistically we were underdogs for it. Liverpool, City and Spurs were all nailed on leaving United fighting for one spot. As it stands we've dropped plenty of points this season at places we shouldn't have (and at home) yet we are still in the conversation for top 4 and ahead of both Spurs and Arsenal who before the start of the season most would have put ahead of us.
If United had a fit Pogba (he's basically missed the whole season) and Mctominay, I think we'd be knocking on the door for 3rd. We really shouldn't be. That says it all.
La Liga is boring. Crystal Palace prevented Liverpool in winning the title not so long ago after a comeback SAF wouldn't be ashamed of.
Bigger teams underestimating ultra defensive sides and being absolutely punished for that while small blips of form is what United can't even produce lately.
As far as other teams go no I can't say I agree. You cannot compare the league without the Champions and the Dippers have been brilliant. And City is going to finish the league with more points than some league winning sides over the years. And Chelsea looks promising aldo they are very incosistent this season.