Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[2cents]

Nearly all the Palestinian origin people I've ever met had a Jordanian passport.

Jordan was the only Arab state to offer Palestinian refugees citizenship on a large scale after 1948. They also extended Jordanian citizenship to the Palestinians of the West Bank after they annexed it in 1950. A significant percentage of the population of Jordan today are Palestinians.

 

[VorZakone]

The Israeli Military Wasn’t Ready for This

Hamas’s surprise attack on Israel has laid bare an uncomfortable truth: The fearsome reputation of the Israeli military, like that of Israeli intelligence services, may be overdue for a revision.

Israel’s conventional forces, moreover, seem to spend less time rehearsing combined arms operations than they do policing the occupied territories. Indeed, what few active-duty battalions Israel has appear to have been deployed away from the south and to the West Bank to safeguard settlers during the holiday. Such policing operations, in addition to pulling needed units away from other priorities, are poor practice for more high-intensity combat.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...israeli-military-vulnerable-war-hamas/675591/

 

[Ragnar123]

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A Hamas official reportedly said they are open to negotiations.

Fake or did they finally wake up and realized what they've unleashed on their own people?

 

[RedTiger]

That's pathos,

Oh please Ragnar, the last 75 years has been nothing BUT pathos, as if facts has played any significant role in the conflict.

My previous position stands, Israel has no option but to completely wipe out all trace of Palestinians both inside greater Israel and outside within the refugee community and their collective progeny.

 

[Simbo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September Some background.

Ok, that's quite eye opening. Also makes me think people need to go study the history of this area for a few years at college before being able to have an opinion on it.

 

[do.ob]

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A bit of a weird flex? Is this aimed at his domestic audience?

 

[Utd heap]

Ok, that's quite eye opening. Also makes me think people need to go study the history of this area for a few years at college before being able to have an opinion on it.

Are you new to the internet mate.

 

[RedTiger]

Talk about dehumanizing Palestinians and their suffering. But I guess it's easy to talk that way on the internet.

I don't need to do that when elected politicians are calling them literal animals.

 

[Raoul]

From the looks of things it looks like the early days are shaping up similar to how they did in Kuwait in 1991

1. Israeli airpower is softening up ground targets in Gaza - ie. destroying them so they can't be used as infrastructure once a ground invasion begins. There will be heavy civilian casualties. The main players in Hamas will of course be hiding in deep underground bunkers. Ground forces assemble and prepare

2. Once the air power takes out its targets, a ground war with an overwhelming number of Israeli troops will begin.

3. Once the Israelis take control on the ground (with continued support of air strikes), a house to house counterinsurgency will begin.

4. Most if not all Israeli hostages will be executed. Civilian Palestinian casualties could be in the tens of thousands.

5. Once Hamas leadership have been killed, Israel will reoccupy Gaza.

6. The humanitarian crisis will be unprecedented.

Obviously, there are variables here, such as Hezbollah get involved or if miraculously, a third party like Qatar manage to convince Hamas to stand down (unlikely given that the hostages are their meal ticket to remaining alive, little do they know the Israelis will go into Gaza either way).

 

[Utd heap]

Oh please Ragnar, the last 75 years has been nothing BUT pathos, as if facts has played any significant role in the conflict.

My previous position stands, Israel has no option but to completely wipe out all trace of Palestinians both inside greater Israel and outside within the refugee community and their collective progeny.

WTF

 

[africanspur]

I have read that Palestinians supported the Islamists in Egypt, and for this reason Egypt today will not be keen to accept any Palestinians. Is this true?

To be honest, it's been a while since 2013 now so I can't recall the full specifics of positions etc.

Having originated from the MB, Sisi was obviously inherently hostile to Hamas.

There's also a desire to link almost any terrorist activity in Egypt to the MB, directly or indirectly and therefore Hamas by extension.

Also some ridiculous conspiracy theories by the regime supporters about Hamas (and Hezbollah) being involved in prison breaks in Egypt.

They have worked together however since 2013 to root out salafi jihadi elements in the Sinai.

I can't speak for all the countries and people of course but my experience has always been that Arab people are far more supportive of the Palestinian cause generally than their governments.

There's lots of reasons I think why Arab countries don't necessarily take on loads of refugees now. Firstly, as I said, they already have millions of Palestinians among their ranks. Secondly, there is a fear that like the 1940s, if they leave, Israel will not allow them to go back. Thirdly, there may also potentially be a fear that a large influx of them may also come with elements of Hamas/PIJ and the Israeli response that could accompany this.

 

[MoskvaRed]

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A Eurocentric view even if there is some truth to it. Europe does not have much geopolitical clout on its own and, in light of what happened in the first half of the 20th century, has even less will to use it with respect to Israel. It’s really the US, isn’t it? Also, the richer Arab states spending billions on sport while fellow Arabs in Gaza don’t have access to running water Is not a great look,

 

[neverdie]

5. Once Hamas leadership have been killed, Israel will reoccupy Gaza.

Most of them tend to be tricky to catch. Touring various other Arab states (and so on). Typical for the situation.

Other than that, I think you have it all about perfect. A complete disaster and then we wait to see how big it goes beyond Hamas/WB.

 

[Simbo]

Are you new to the internet mate.

Oh I know its ridiculously complicated, but I thought I knew a fair amount without somehow not having a clue about the Palestinian conflicts with Jordon, who I Imagine are probably glad to have Israel as a buffer nowadays, the leadership at least.

 

[Utd heap]

Oh I know its ridiculously complicated, but I thought I knew a fair amount without somehow not having a clue about the Palestinian conflicts with Jordon, who I Imagine are probably glad to have Israel as a buffer nowadays, the leadership at least.

I like to think i'm pretty well read but I steer well clear of this shit online.

 

[VorZakone]

Some Hezbollah members were killed.

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[JPRouve]

Oh I know its ridiculously complicated, but I thought I knew a fair amount without somehow not having a clue about the Palestinian conflicts with Jordon, who I Imagine are probably glad to have Israel as a buffer nowadays, the leadership at least.

That conflict isn't really relevant today, today Jordan are the only consistent and reliable support of palestinians.

 

[RedTiger]

WTF

There's no other alternative when the major world powers won't back a Palestinian state with concrete resolve. Palestine isn't going to do anything with conventional warfare or the merry go round of attacks followed by negotiated truces. The cycle has to end and only one nation can do that and that's Israel.

 

[JPRouve]

There's no other alternative when the major world powers won't back a Palestinian state with concrete resolve. Palestine isn't going to do anything with conventional warfare or the merry go round of attacks followed by negotiated truces. The cycle has to end and only one nation can do that and that's Israel.

That's how I understood your post and you have a point. It will be done slowly but there is no other outcome unless things change dramatically when it comes to the main world powers.

 

[Raoul]

Most of them tend to be tricky to catch. Touring various other Arab states (and so on). Typical for the situation.

Other than that, I think you have it all about perfect. A complete disaster and then we wait to see how big it goes beyond Hamas/WB.

If they leave Gaza, they will almost certainly be caught. They miscalculated massively by trying what they did, since it will almost certainly be the end of Hamas in Gaza.

 

[Simbo]

Apparently body counts not even begun yet in some Israeli's villages only recently cleared.

 

[fergieisold]

Careful if you choose to watch this. It's a difficult watch. I've not been sure if to post it. It has no violence or dead bodies, but it will speak to the emotional state in Israel currently, and why the response will be so brutal and so supported.

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The significant celebration of Hamas and anti jew violence by muslims is also feeding into anger in the diaspora who all know of victims, and is further driving hardline response. A lot of emotional wrecks out there.

Cutting through all the bullshit, Hamas are savages. It’s that simple.

 

[neverdie]

If they leave Gaza, they will almost certainly be caught. They miscalculated massively by trying what they did, since it will almost certainly be the end of Hamas in Gaza.

No I just mean the way it's structured, they keep X amount away from Gaza at all times (high command). Generally touring Turkey, Russia, and whatever other Arabic states are amenable to hosting them of late.

 

[VorZakone]

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[neverdie]

Cutting through all the bullshit, Hamas are savages. It’s that simple.

If history began with Hamas' attack, that would be true and it would indeed be that simple. But it doesn't and it isn't.

We would say after 1984 that the ANC are animals (Church St Bombing) and it's that simple (including Mandela). But that's just a ridiculous way of understanding complex conflicts.

 

[VorZakone]

Gaza raises death toll to 687

The health ministry run by terror-group Hamas says 687 Palestinians have been killed and another 3,800 have been wounded in the Gaza Strip since the start of fighting on Saturday.

 

[VorZakone]

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[fergieisold]

If history began with Hamas' attack, that would be true and it would indeed be that simple. But it doesn't and it isn't.

We woud say after 1984 that the ANC are animals (Church St Bombing) and it's that simple (including Mandela). But that's just a ridiculous way of understanding complex conflicts.

You are trying to excuse what’s just happened. I’m genuinely interested if you have examples of Israel (in modern history) behaving like Hamas just did.

 

[Revan]

If they leave Gaza, they will almost certainly be caught. They miscalculated massively by trying what they did, since it will almost certainly be the end of Hamas in Gaza.

I do not think they miscalculated. That was their equivalent of ‘going out with a bang’. This was the biggest thing they were ever going to achieve.

 

[neverdie]

You are trying to excuse what’s just happened. I’m genuinely interested if you have examples of Israel (in modern history) behaving like Hamas just did.

No, I'm saying everyone knew it was coming because of how Israel has been behaving over the past five years in particular and decades if we really want to go through it. Examples of Israel bombing women and children? Endless. Give Hamas the weaponry Israel has and you might get a "nicer" form of what is always "murder". Look at the body counts and general conditions in the WB/Gaza over the past 15 years if you want the examples you don't have.

 

[tomaldinho1]

If history began with Hamas' attack, that would be true and it would indeed be that simple. But it doesn't and it isn't.

That has no bearing on whether one's actions are ok or not. Very clear the recent attacks are horrendous.

The scale of the Israeli ground force building for an assault on Gaza is staggering if quoted numbers are to be believed - sad that the people responsible aren't the ones who are going to be affected now, the common people are going to bear the brunt.

 

[RedTiger]

That's how I understood your post and you have a point. It will be done slowly but there is no other outcome unless things change dramatically when it comes to the main world powers.

I'm the wrong side of 45 bro, I've been following this stuff since the mid 80s and nothing has changed other than the colours on a map. I've just completely given up.

 

[fergieisold]

No, I'm saying everyone knew it was coming because of how Israel has been behaving over the past five years in particular and decades if we really want to go through it. Examples of Israel bombing women and children? Endless. Give Hamas the weaponry Israel has and you might get a "nicer" form of what is always "murder".

So basically you don’t have examples. Other than a grievance because of a different mode of killing.

can you condemn Hamas?

 

[neverdie]

That has no bearing on whether one's actions are ok or not. Very clear the recent attacks are horrendous.

Yeah, it was terrible. But it does have a bearing. It didn't come from nowhere. It was literally predicted. You cannot have what Israel has engineered in occupied Palestine for so long and expect no response.

 

[neverdie]

So basically you don’t have examples. Other than a grievance because of a different mode of killing.

can you condemn Hamas?

There are hundreds of examples. I have too many. Go to wikipedia. Or just pretend history began when Hamas killed Israelis instead.

Did it at the outset (said you cannot justify what they did but you have to be a fool or blind to history to not understand it).

Now shall you condemn Israel (for the past few decades or even the past two?).

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yeah, it was terrible. But it does have a bearing. It didn't come from nowhere. It was literally predicted. You cannot have what Israel has engineered in occupied Palestine for so long and expect no response.

Of course, it doesn't just appear out of the ether. Your comment suggested that with context the actions were not horrific.

 

[fergieisold]

There are hundreds of examples. I have too many. Go to wikipedia. Or just pretend history began when Hamas killed Israelis instead.

Did it at the outset (said you cannot justify what they did but you have to be a fool or blind to history to not understand it).

Now shall you condemn Israel (for the past few decades or even the past two?).

I’ve said before my knowledge is limited. Send me neutral content on the subject I’d be happy to listen. The last stuff I watched made it clear there was no way to peace. It was either destruction of Israel or nothing.

 

[Raoul]

I do not think they miscalculated. That was their equivalent of ‘going out with a bang’. This was the biggest thing they were ever going to achieve.

Most Hamas actions have historically been to use terrorism to draw public attention to put a spotlight on their policy demands. This was little more than the latest example of this. The miscalculation bit is that they didn't think it through well enough - the ISIS style barbarism of cutting throats of teenagers at a dance party, raping Israeli girls, kidnapping 3 year olds and wheel chair bound elderly holocaust survivors etc. was only going to end one way for Hamas. So unless they were suicidal or stupid, this looks to be a massive miscalculation on their part.

 

[neverdie]

Of course, it doesn't just appear out of the ether. Your comment suggested that with context the actions were not horrific.

No, I was just checking that the poster understood Israel was an apartheid state which routinely carries out terrorist attacks upon both Gaza and the WB in direct violation of international law. Apparently he didn't. I don't justify murder regadless of who does it.

 

[Ragnar123]

Israel is launching a massive attack that has never happened before, - Prime Minister Netanyahu

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