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Fearless

Mighty Mouse
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I love how Christian zionist Ken Meshoe avoids all mention of the West Bank, and then goes on to list all the rights that Mandela fought for, all of which are absent in the West Bank. They also managed to rope his daughter into making one of these ludicrous videos :lol:
You keep banging on about freeing the West Bank of Israeli control, yet now you castigate Israel for not furnishing Israeli citizenship and all it's rights on the Palestinians. Weird.

Free Palestine. But as long as it ends up being another Arab dictatorship.
 

Fearless

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You're Scottish if I remember correctly and so will know full I didn't call you an ant. You will also know I'm sure that I haven't made any analogies.

Which is part of the reason why there is no point engaging with you.

I'll leave you to carry on posting YouTube videos though.
Israeli / British.

My favourite comedian is Scottish though.
 

Mozza

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It's not even an analogy. It's a ridiculous distortion of historical fact to slander Israel. If anything, the Warsaw Ghetto is indeed applicable to Israel, in the true sense that once again Jews are surrounded by enemies that want to wipe them out.

Tell me I'm wrong.
You are wrong
 

Synco

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@adexkola
I think you're right about what the crucial questions are, although my answers would be different ones for the most part. My main objection is that the attitudes and actions of the other side always have repercussions on the overall structure of a conflict. And that they were, and are, especially important for the shape of this one.

But the points you make deserve more attention than I can give them right now, I'll answer when I have the time.
 

Super Hans

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You keep banging on about freeing the West Bank of Israeli control, yet now you castigate Israel for not furnishing Israeli citizenship and all it's rights on the Palestinians. Weird.

Free Palestine. But as long as it ends up being another Arab dictatorship.
And yet that is precisely the thing that is and has been the problem in Israel/Palestine for the last 51 years. That Israel, the overwhelmingly more powerful party, wants neither of those resolutions and would rather maintain the status quo.

I don't think it is necessarily your views that are the thing that is unpopular/irritating Fearless. It is that those views remain without nuance and impervious to reason no matter how many times they are shown to be misjudged.
 

MJJ

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It's not even an analogy. It's a ridiculous distortion of historical fact to slander Israel. If anything, the Warsaw Ghetto is indeed applicable to Israel, in the true sense that once again Jews are surrounded by enemies that want to wipe them out.

Tell me I'm wrong.
Must be so hard for your Israel to survive from the threat of little kids.

And how was that 21/22 year old nurse threatening Israel again?
 

Fearless

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And yet that is precisely the thing that is and has been the problem in Israel/Palestine for the last 51 years. That Israel, the overwhelmingly more powerful party, wants neither of those resolutions and would rather maintain the status quo.

I don't think it is necessarily your views that are the thing that is unpopular/irritating Fearless. It is that those views remain without nuance and impervious to reason no matter how many times they are shown to be misjudged.
Yeah, I've thought about that ever since you've entered the thread. In earlier days, I brought a far more 'nuanced' argument to the table, only to eventually realise that it was impotent from the start. Why? Because this particular conflict sucks in almost every emotional, political and religious and even genetic agenda and is the fault line that divides far more than opinion. Never has a conflict mirrored itself in the duality of man so perfectly.

So, I've reduced my responses to the bare knuckled minimum. I mean no offence, even at my most crass. But, as I once asked my Rabbi, never short of a lecture or too why the world hates Israel, he just responded that it's because it's 'Jewish'. And just left it at that. Hardly nuanced (or satisfactory to purely political beasts), but perhaps the most complex answer ever given. Is this a get out clause? No. But even the accusation of it is an evil unto itself.

Put it this way, if Israel was any other religion, nobody would really give a shit.
 

Chairman Woodie

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Yeah, I've thought about that ever since you've entered the thread. In earlier days, I brought a far more 'nuanced' argument to the table, only to eventually realise that it was impotent from the start. Why? Because this particular conflict sucks in almost every emotional, political and religious and even genetic agenda and is the fault line that divides far more than opinion. Never has a conflict mirrored itself in the duality of man so perfectly.

So, I've reduced my responses to the bare knuckled minimum. I mean no offence, even at my most crass. But, as I once asked my Rabbi, never short of a lecture or too why the world hates Israel, he just responded that it's because it's 'Jewish'. And just left it at that. Hardly nuanced (or satisfactory to purely political beasts), but perhaps the most complex answer ever given. Is this a get out clause? No. But even the accusation of it is an evil unto itself.

Put it this way, if Israel was any other religion, nobody would really give a shit.
In a nutshell.
 

Chairman Woodie

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This Bill, if passed, will only hurt Irish and Palestinian jobs. No benefit in sacrificing the economic prosperity of Ireland for the sake of superficial support of the Palestinian cause. Certainly no benefit to Ireland when Palestinian leaders run away from any prospect of statehood that involves compromise.
 
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Mozza

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The same bull was spouted in response to the anti apartheid movement against South Africa. Israel's apartheid needs the same response
 

Super Hans

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Yeah, I've thought about that ever since you've entered the thread. In earlier days, I brought a far more 'nuanced' argument to the table, only to eventually realise that it was impotent from the start. Why? Because this particular conflict sucks in almost every emotional, political and religious and even genetic agenda and is the fault line that divides far more than opinion. Never has a conflict mirrored itself in the duality of man so perfectly.

So, I've reduced my responses to the bare knuckled minimum. I mean no offence, even at my most crass. But, as I once asked my Rabbi, never short of a lecture or too why the world hates Israel, he just responded that it's because it's 'Jewish'. And just left it at that. Hardly nuanced (or satisfactory to purely political beasts), but perhaps the most complex answer ever given. Is this a get out clause? No. But even the accusation of it is an evil unto itself.

Put it this way, if Israel was any other religion, nobody would really give a shit.
One wonders then why the world gave a shit about the Christian regime in apartheid South Africa.
 

Super Hans

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Because it wasn't Black Christians.
But didn't you say: "if Israel was any other religion, nobody would really give a shit."?

If Israel was a Christian state and carried on the way Israel does, the world would be equally appalled, and I think you probably deep down understand that.

Edit: In fact, such a state would have been decolonised long ago imo. Israel enjoys certain protections that this hypothetical Christian state would not i.e. being the only "Jewish" state, guilt over the Holocaust etc.
 
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Adisa

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Segregation about to be enshrined into law.
 
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Synco

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@adexkola
Took me some time, sorry, but here's my answer.
My problem with the second part of your reply boils down to this. The problematic behaviors or idealogies of the oppressed should have no bearing on how the dominant oppressive power should behave. Differences of idealogies and behaviors between different representative groups of oppressed peoples do not negate comparisons between different oppressors.

If Hamas was replaced by the ANC, or IRA, or FLN in Algeria, would that make the comparison more legitimate? I don't think it does, because that would imply that Hamas and others bring oppression on themselves due to their own behavior, and if they would cease all hostilities and start being nice, then maybe, Israel or Apartheid S.A. or the French occupation or Britain would deem them worthy of the liberties currently denied.
I think your standpoint ultimately erases the factor of Palestinians/Arabs as actors, who have crucial influence on the proceedings with their own decisions as well. I also think this is somewhat inevitable, as the apartheid argument against Israel (the way it is normally used) can only work through that omission. Of course the actions of the Palestinians and other Arab actors have influenced their own situation, the behaviour of the other side, and possibilities for the future.

For example, during the 1990s Hamas has conducted an extensive terror campaign in order to prevent the Oslo process from succeeding, because for them the only acceptable Palestinian course of action was Jihad until Israel's demise. How is this not influential on the basic political and security situation of the Palestinians (as well as the Israeli one, of course)? In other words: influencing the course of the conflict as a whole?

The same was true for the South African liberation movement, imo – they were actors in their own right, and their success was in part dependent on making the right choices. If the ANC had declared the white South Africans foreigners, and vowed to expel them after victory – like many of the Arab opponents of Israel have done throughout the conflict –, the development of the 1990s wouldn't have happened. And couldn't have happened.

To me it's obvious that choices like these matter.
Yes. Hamas are very problematic. Moreso than Mandela's ANC (which by the way, became more radical and violent after the authorities ignored all that moderation and imprisoned Mandela, exiled Tambo, and killed scores more). However there is a positive feedback loop where continued oppression drives more extreme resistance. The pressure valve lied with Apartheid S.A. and lies with Israel.

Doesn't negate the current comparison between Israel and Apartheid South Africa one bit.
The simple truth is: the pressure valve doesn't lie with Israel alone, and it never was like that throughout the conflict's history. There are factors that primarily hinge on the inner constitution of both Palestinian society and surrounding ME societies, attitudes to which a retreat to the 1967 borders wouldn't make a fundamental difference. Because its protagonists wouldn't accept a Jewish state in the Middle East in any borders and thus want Israel gone.

This is something that, as far as I know, has no equivalent in South African history. So trying to superimpose the history and inner structure of the South African conflict on the Israeli-Arab one will unavoidably lead to a failure in noticing this factor, despite the central role it plays for the shape of the conflict. To me it's a good example of how a prefixed narrative practically determines which aspects of an issue can be perceived, and which ones get neglected.

As for the notion of "problematic behaviours": I don't think the Jew-hatred and brutality that has always gone along with anti-Israel radicalism can be cast as undesirable excesses of a fundamentally good cause, the way it can be done with some of the ANC's violence. That's why I insist on acknowledging fundamental goals and ideologies so much when it comes to a general evaluation of the conflict. They can make a world of difference.

If I get you right, you say they are ugly, but ultimately expendable byproducts of what's essentially a social liberation struggle. I say they are much more central to the conflict as such. This probably explains a lot about our different stances on the issue.
 
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Fearless

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Mozza

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Don't you ever get sick of your own hypocrisy?

Just name me one Arab or Muslim state that approaches anything like Israel in terms of embracing human rights.

Just one.
I didn't realise human rights were only applicable in comparison to other nations, so as long as you're better than Saudi your fine to give less rights to your minorities?

Still it's nice you admit that the best Israel can do is better than Saudi Arabia, not comparable to nations that grant real human rights protections to people.
 

MJJ

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Don't you ever get sick of your own hypocrisy?

Just name me one Arab or Muslim state that approaches anything like Israel in terms of embracing human rights.

Just one.
Name you one Arab or Muslim state which doesnt defend the killing of kids and innocents? Would be easier to name the ones who support genocide than to name the ones that dont.
 

Fearless

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I didn't realise human rights were only applicable in comparison to other nations, so as long as you're better than Saudi your fine to give less rights to your minorities?

Still it's nice you admit that the best Israel can do is better than Saudi Arabia, not comparable to nations that grant real human rights protections to people.
More hypocrisy.

You didn't realise that 'human rights were only applicable in comparison to other nations' but you've got no problem comparing Israel to South Africa :lol:

And I didn't admit anything - you're now banging on about Saudi Arabia when my question was name ONE Arab or Muslim country that can teach Israel anything about Human Rights.
You've got 50 to choose from.

Still awaiting an answer.
 
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MJJ

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More hypocrisy.

You didn't realise that 'human rights were only applicable in comparison to other nations' but you've got no problem comparing Israel to South Africa :lol:

And I didn't admit anything - you're now banging on about Saudi Arabia when my question was name ONE Arab or Muslim country that can teach Israel anything about Human Rights.
You've got 50 to choose from.

Still awaiting an answer.
UN human rights body declared Israel the worst offender in 2017 so every other country is better than it.
 

Mozza

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More hypocrisy.

You didn't realise that 'human rights were only applicable in comparison to other nations' but you've got no problem comparing Israel to South Africa :lol:

And I didn't admit anything - you're now banging on about Saudi Arabia when my question was name ONE Arab or Muslim country that can teach Israel anything about Human Rights.
You've got 50 to choose from.

Still awaiting an answer.
I don't have to answer your shitty question. I don't have to answer for every Muslim nations humans rights record just because I'm Muslim. Yours is the kind of talk that justifies attacks on Jewish people in the UK for Israel's crimes as you can't seperate religion from nation.

You've decided that the only way you can defend Israel's shitty human rights record is to say it's better than another nations shitty human rights record. Comparisons to apartheid South Africa is valid, if anything aparthied South Africa wasn't as evil as todays Israel
 

Fearless

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I don't have to answer your shitty question. I don't have to answer for every Muslim nations humans rights record just because I'm Muslim. Yours is the kind of talk that justifies attacks on Jewish people in the UK for Israel's crimes as you can't seperate religion from nation.

You've decided that the only way you can defend Israel's shitty human rights record is to say it's better than another nations shitty human rights record. Comparisons to apartheid South Africa is valid, if anything aparthied South Africa wasn't as evil as todays Israel
Tell me, do you believe that the Jews illegally occupy Muslim land?