Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Mozza]

Check out @marclamonthill’s Tweet:

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If Israel cannot exist as a Jewish state without granting equal rights to all the Palestinian people who's lives it controls, then Israel does not have the right to exist

 

[Synco]

He said it with his own words. He said since the Nakba (1967). Sorry mate, but you are wrong.

The term Nakba isn't about 1967 at all.

 

[Giggsyking]

The term Nakba isn't about 1967 at all.

You are right, I mixed it with Naksa which is 1967.

 

[Synco]

Okay, I feel I should give examples for what I came to know as the usual meaning of the phrase. The hegemonial meaning is that of a call for the violent ending of Israel's existence. The version Hill probably alludes to (see last example) is still about the end of a state of Israel, while its supposed civility simply ignores the preeminent usage of that slogan, the aims of its proponents, and the power they hold. Just like Hill did when he decided to use it as the climax of his speech.

It's long, but I guess it's necessary to be expansive, because I have the distinct feeling this stuff might actually be unknown to quite a few people.

-----
Hamas

From the Hamas Charter of 2017:

The Land of Palestine

2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.

(...)

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. (...)

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876
(The last passage is followed up by Hamas' revised standpoint on a two-state solution, which would be a different talking point.)

Khaled Meshaal speech from 2012:

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal vowed Gaza's rulers would never give up "an inch of the land" to Israel in an uncompromising speech before tens of thousands of cheering supporters at a triumphalist "victory" rally in Gaza City.

"Palestine is ours, from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land," he told the crowd on his first visit to Gaza. "We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/08/hamas-gaza-palestine-khaled-meshaal-israel

Video from that speech (or a different one around the same time):
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-leader-khaled-mashal-we-will-not-relinquish-inch-palestine-river-sea

Haniyeh this year:

"Our people will flock from the refugee camps in Lebanon to the northern border of Palestine, and our people in Jordan will also flock to the outskirts of Palestine. We'll turn the nakba that ended Palestine to a nakba that ends the Zionist enterprise," Haniyeh added.

(...)

Defiantly, he insisted that Hamas "will not give up the weapon of the resistance, we'll develop it. We won't give up Palestine, from the river to the sea, and we will not recognize Israel."

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5257729,00.html

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Hezbollah

"Jerusalem and Palestine, from the sea to the river, belong to the Palestinian people, the Arabs and the Muslims, and no one has the authority to concede a grain of earth, wall or stone from the holy land," Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah said Friday evening.

Speaking in Beirut in honor of al-Quds (Jerusalem) Day, an Iranian-declared observance, Nasrallah added, "Its stones, olives and figs are sacred, and no one has the right to give it up. This land must belong to its owners, and it will return, God willing."

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3602654,00.html

Here's an outline of his vision what this liberation means: Either the Jews leave the Middle East on their own, or they will be swept away by a Grand War.

Grand War Coming

Back to the occasion, His Eminence assured: "As we believe that Al-Quds and Palestine are a just cause, I believe that Al-Quds will return to its people and that Palestine will be liberated."

Once again, the Resistance Leader sent a message to the "Israelis": "We do not want to kill, destroy or throw anyone into the sea. We ask you in a civilized way to return to the countries you came from. If you insist on occupation, the day of the grand war will come and it is a day in which we will all pray at Al-Quds."

https://english.alahednews.com.lb/essaydetails.php?eid=43589&cid=577#.WxxACSAmrcs

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Iran

Khamenei, earlier this year:

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Which, to avoid any misinterpretation, was tweeted a few days after this one:

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PLO / Fatah

Origin and general use of the slogan:

From the river to the sea

"Palestine from the river to the sea" was claimed as Palestine by the PLO[65] from its establishment in 1964 until the signing of the Oslo Accords.[78] The PLO claim was originally set on areas, controlled by the State of Israel prior to 1967 War, meaning the combined Coastal Plain, Galilee, Yizrael Valley, Arava Valley and Negev Desert, but excluding West Bank (controlled then by Jordan) and Gaza Strip (occupied between 1959 and 1967 by Egypt). In a slightly different fashion "Palestine from the river to the sea" is still claimed by Hamas,[79] referring to all areas of former Mandatory Palestine.

From the River to the Sea (Arabic: min al-nahr ila al-bahr ) is, and forms part of, a popular political slogan used by Palestinian nationalists. It contains the notion that the land which lies between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea be entirely placed under Arab rule at the cost of the State of Israel, excluding the contested Golan Heights, conquered from Syria in 1967 and unilaterally annexed in 1981.[80] It has been used frequently by Arab leaders[81][82] and is often chanted at anti-Israel demonstrations.[83]

The slogan is versatile with numerous variations including "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,"[84] "Palestine is ours from the river to the sea," "Palestine is Islamic from the river to the sea,"[85] Islamic scholars also claim the Mahdi will also declare the slogan in the following format: "Jerusalem is Arab Muslim, and Palestine — all of it, from the river to the sea — is Arab Muslim."[86]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism#From_the_river_to_the_sea

A recent interpretation that would be in line with one of the (imo contradicting) interpretations Hill gives is this one from Saeb Erekat:

In exclusive comments to Haaretz, Saeb Erekat, chief Palestinian peace negotiator, said that Trump's decision forces Palestinians to strive for 'historic Palestine, from the river to the sea'

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...-over-top-palestinian-diplomat-says-1.5627973 (can't quote, because it's behind a paywall)

This is the most soft-core version I'm aware of and still based on what I've written: The reversal of 1948, the end of the state of Israel. I've stated why I think it should be off limits in any case at the beginning of this post.

 

[Mozza]

You seem to think it's controversial to use the phrase, it isn't at all

 

[Giggsyking]

Okay, I feel I should give examples for what I came to know as the usual meaning of the phrase. The hegemonial meaning is that of a call for the violent ending of Israel's existence. The version Hill probably alludes to (see last example) is still about the end of a state of Israel, while its supposed civility simply ignores the preeminent usage of that slogan, the aims of its proponents, and the power they hold. Just like Hill did when he decided to use it as the climax of his speech.

It's long, but I guess it's necessary to be expansive, because I have the distinct feeling this stuff might actually be unknown to quite a few people.

-----
Hamas

From the Hamas Charter of 2017:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876
(The last passage is followed up by Hamas' revised standpoint on a two-state solution, which would be a different talking point.)

Khaled Meshaal speech from 2012:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/08/hamas-gaza-palestine-khaled-meshaal-israel

Video from that speech (or a different one around the same time):
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-leader-khaled-mashal-we-will-not-relinquish-inch-palestine-river-sea

Haniyeh this year:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5257729,00.html

-----
Hezbollah


https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3602654,00.html

Here's an outline of his vision what this liberation means: Either the Jews leave the Middle East on their own, or they will be swept away by a Grand War.

https://english.alahednews.com.lb/essaydetails.php?eid=43589&cid=577#.WxxACSAmrcs

-----
Iran

Khamenei, earlier this year:

Tweet

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Which, to avoid any misinterpretation, was tweeted a few days after this one:

Tweet

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-----
PLO / Fatah

Origin and general use of the slogan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism#From_the_river_to_the_sea

A recent interpretation that would be in line with one of the (imo contradicting) interpretations Hill gives is this one from Saeb Erekat:

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...-over-top-palestinian-diplomat-says-1.5627973 (can't quote, because it's behind a paywall)

This is the most soft-core version I'm aware of and still based on what I've written: The reversal of 1948, the end of the state of Israel. I've stated why I think it should be off limits in any case at the beginning of this post.

nothing wrong with saying free Palestine. In fact it is the right thing to say.

 

[Synco]

You seem to think it's controversial to use the phrase, it isn't at all

Among people who more or less share your outlook, it's obviously not. For anyone who has a problem with what I cited above, and knows how much it matters in this conflict, it should be.

 

[Mozza]

Among people who more or less share your outlook, it's obviously not. For anyone who has a problem with what I cited above, and knows how much it matters in this conflict, it should be.

For people who want to maintain the illusion that a 2 state solution is possible its controversial

 

[Mozza]

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[Im red2]

Who are the Palestinians? History please, so that I can get a focus on what is actually happening. Maybe some Palestinian surnames and there meanings that is always a good start. I am not saying that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. I am just interested in the facts of the matter. Will appreciate any help.

 

[2cents]

Who are the Palestinians? History please, so that I can get a focus on what is actually happening. Maybe some Palestinian surnames and there meanings that is always a good start. I am not saying that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. I am just interested in the facts of the matter. Will appreciate any help.

I recommend the following books:

Baruch Kimmerling and Joel Migdal - The Palestinian People: A History
Rashid Khalidi - Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness
Meir Litvak (editor) - Palestinian Collective Memory and National Identity

 

[Im red2]

Who are the Palestinians? History please, so that I can get a focus on what is actually happening

M

I recommend the following books:

Baruch Kimmerling and Joel Migdal - The Palestinian People: A History
Rashid Khalidi - Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness
Meir Litvak (editor) - Palestinian Collective Memory and National Identity

Thank you.

 

[2cents]

M

Thank you.

To expand just a bit - the Migdal and Kimmerling book locates the origins of the modern Palestinian identity back to the revolt against the Egyptian occupation of the region in the 1830s, the Khalidi book emphasizes the period roughly from the 1880s to the early 1900s with the emergence of a Palestinian press and peasant resistance to Zionist colonization, and the Litvak edition focuses on the impact of the war of 1948 and the refugee problem (the Nakbah). So three alternative perspectives there, in some ways complementary and in some ways not; however the revolt against the British (1936-39) needs to be considered as well, you'll find it discussed in all the general histories (inc. the Baruch and Kimmerling book), but I'm not really aware of a work which specifically deals with it as it relates to the formation of the Palestinians as a distinct people* - you could try Weldon C. Matthews - Confronting Empire: Arab Nationalists and Popular politics in Mandate Palestine, although it has a specific focus on one particular Palestinian faction.

All of the good studies of the Palestinians emphasize the multi-layered nature of their identity (Arab, Islamic, geographical, etc.), and the ways in which, like all forms of modern nationalism, they have drawn on a semi-mythical past and collective memory to 'construct' themselves as a distinct people. The bad studies tend either to dismiss the idea that they constitute a distinct people at all (a common Zionist approach), or attempt to legitimize the idea of a continuous pre-biblical, Canaanite identity (a common Palestinian nationalist approach) - the one in order to reject the notion of Palestinian national rights in the land altogether, the other to negate the significance of the millennia-old Jewish connection to the land; in other words, both approaches are heavily informed by contemporary political claims and calculations.

* (Edit): a quick google throws this up: Ted Swedenburg - Memories of Revolt: The 1936-1939 Rebellion and the Palestinian National Past. I can't say anything about it though.

 

[Raoul]

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[Mozza]

Every time Fatah and Hamas reach a reconciliation Israel blows it up, quite literally by bombing some Palestinians in Gaza

 

[SwansonsTache]

Every time Fatah and Hamas reach a reconciliation Israel blows it up, quite literally by bombing some Palestinians in Gaza

Was this in response to the story pasted by @Raoul above? If so, how can you blame Israel for the epidemic corruption of the Palestinian leadership? One can start to wonder if they really are interested in solving the issue at hand, or rather to keep reaping in the aid from the West.

Atleast they've removed the part about "absolute destruction of the Israeli state" in their official policy. I guess we all have to start somewhere. Next they could try not having jihad glorification and beheading as the children cartoons of choice on Palestinian TV. There are plenty of examples of this on YouTube.

Listen, I am no fan of israel, I always try to avoid them when I go travelling since I've met so many cnuts from there. But this whole white washing of Palestine leadership is just as ridiculous as the glorification the press and the Democrats suddenly decided to do regarding McCain and Bush, simply because they are not the Orange one.

 

[Mozza]

Was this in response to the story pasted by @Raoul above? If so, how can you blame Israel for the epidemic corruption of the Palestinian leadership? One can start to wonder if they really are interested in solving the issue at hand, or rather to keep reaping in the aid from the West.

Atleast they've removed the part about "absolute destruction of the Israeli state" in their official policy. I guess we all have to start somewhere. Next they could try not having jihad glorification and beheading as the children cartoons of choice on Palestinian TV. There are plenty of examples of this on YouTube.

Listen, I am no fan of israel, I always try to avoid them when I go travelling since I've met so many cnuts from there. But this whole white washing of Palestine leadership is just as ridiculous as the glorification the press and the Democrats suddenly decided to do regarding McCain and Bush, simply because they are not the Orange one.

Where did I white wash the Palestinian leadership?

 

[SwansonsTache]

Where did I white wash the Palestinian leadership?

If you read above you see that I specifically mention the press, and also as far as the US goes, the Democrats.

However, when your immediate response to a critical article about PA and Hamas is that it is because of Israel bombing them, then you have to wonder. It is not like Hamas and PA are the masters of conflict solving and dialogue, and the only thing that has kept an agreement from happening is Israel allegedly timing their bombing to disrupt the great diplomacy of the Palestine organizations. Also do the suicide attacks and mortar launches stop from the Palestinian side during these agreements?

An agreement won't be reached because of the idiotic settlements the Israeli insist on and their heavy handed approach. Likewise on the other side there is no true intention or interest of the top brass to ever come to an agreement, they've already monetized the perennial victim role to perfection, why stop now?

As far as who the territory really belongs to? If we follow the rule of conquest and then defending said conquest then it belongs to Israel. If we move back a few thousand years it all becomes a discussion about who of his 12 sons Abraham gave it to etc, but quite frankly I have no interest in glorified fairytales.

 

[Mozza]

If you read above you see that I specifically mention the press, and also as far as the US goes, the Democrats.

However, when your immediate response to a critical article about PA and Hamas is that it is because of Israel bombing them, then you have to wonder. It is not like Hamas and PA are the masters of conflict solving and dialogue, and the only thing that has kept an agreement from happening is Israel allegedly timing their bombing to disrupt the great diplomacy of the Palestine organizations. Also do the suicide attacks and mortar launches stop from the Palestinian side during these agreements?

An agreement won't be reached because of the idiotic settlements the Israeli insist on and their heavy handed approach. Likewise on the other side there is no true intention or interest of the top brass to ever come to an agreement, they've already monetized the perennial victim role to perfection, why stop now?

As far as who the territory really belongs to? If we follow the rule of conquest and then defending said conquest then it belongs to Israel. If we move back a few thousand years it all becomes a discussion about who of his 12 sons Abraham gave it to etc, but quite frankly I have no interest in glorified fairytales.

Seeing as Fatah tried to destroy Hamas after the latter won an election makes reconciliation is a delicate process. The last thing Israel wants is a unified Palestinian voice, so blowing apart any deal is in its interest. When was the last time there was a suicide attack? Morter fire is largely used when Israel has made life intolerable in the Gaza strip. That's why the number rises and falls and there are various peace deals brokered between upswings

Why do you pretend not to be a fan of Israel?

 

[SwansonsTache]

Why do you pretend not to be a fan of Israel?

Because I truly am not. Only positive I can find about them is the relatively fit birds they have. But seeing as even the females are indoctrinated in the IDF for three years, one best stay clear of them.

You really don't have to be a fan of Israel to be critical of the coverage and the process on both sides.

 

[Mozza]

Because I truly am not. Only positive I can find about them is the relatively fit birds they have. But seeing as even the females are indoctrinated in the IDF for three years, one best stay clear of them.

You really don't have to be a fan of Israel to be critical of the coverage and the process on both sides.

You think you are balanced but you're really not

 

[SwansonsTache]

You think you are balanced but you're really not

As a funny sidenote to that it is fascinating to hear how a lot of Arab people, and people in the GCC region especially regard Palestinians, and then the absolute 360 they do once you bring the conflict up. Almost like if there are some religious aspects to the whole thing.

 

[Kaos]

As a funny sidenote to that it is fascinating to hear how a lot of Arab people, and people in the GCC region especially regard Palestinians, and then the absolute 360 they do once you bring the conflict up. Almost like if there are some religious aspects to the whole thing.

Minor point but I think you mean 180

 

[SwansonsTache]

Minor point but I think you mean 180

Feck, you are right. Severely lacking sleep

 

[Chairman Woodie]

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This decision has been met with a mix of condemnation and disappointment from both sides. But I agree with Bahrain's Foreign Minister:

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[Super Hans]

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This decision has been met with a mix of condemnation and disappointment from both sides. But I agree with Bahrain's Foreign Minister:

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It’s quite funny because any distinction between East and West Jerusalem is precisely what Israel does not want.

 

[Fearless]

You think you are balanced but you're really not

What has 'balance' got to do with anything? The fictional Palestinian cause is solely about destroying Israel /Jews - and that's it. End of story.

 

[Kaos]

What has 'balance' got to do with anything? The fictional Palestinian cause is solely about destroying Israel /Jews - and that's it. End of story.

How objective of you.

 

[Fearless]

How objective of you.

There's enough left-leaning feckery on this forum alone to make the uneducated think it's some kind of 50/50 (and I'm being generous here) conflict that requires a 50/50 (and I'm being very generous here) solution. It's far more simple than that, as I've explained. Pretending it's about land is just silly.

 

[Kaos]

There's enough left-leaning feckery on this forum alone to make the uneducated think it's some kind of 50/50 (and I'm being generous here) conflict that requires a 50/50 (and I'm being very generous here) solution. It's far more simple than that, as I've explained. Pretending it's about land is just silly.

Its not about land? So why not pack up the illegal settlements if land is a trivial factor in this conflict?

 

[Buster15]

Its not about land? So why not pack up the illegal settlements if land is a trivial factor in this conflict?

The wars that Israel fought with the Arabs not long after the state of Israel was formed was all about land. You only have to look at the maps to see that.

The original land was quite tiny by comparison and relatively thin. Israel realised that opposition forces could push them into the sea. They also had no high ground and limited water supplies. She also needed a strong barrier between her and Egypt.

Israel now commands a landmass that is significant easier to defend.
Moreover, it is now armed to the teeth with the latest US F35 jets which she has already used in anger; the first country to do so.

 

[Mozza]

What has 'balance' got to do with anything? The fictional Palestinian cause is solely about destroying Israel /Jews - and that's it. End of story.

If Israel can't exist without granting equal rights to the Palestinian people then it has no right to exist.

 

[berbatrick]

Next Likud government will expand Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria, minister vows
Tourism Minister Yariv Levin (Likud) visited Samaria last week and promised that one of the major goals of the next government will be to encourage the fast growth of the Jewish population in the region.

After touring the area with Regional Council Head Yossi Dagan, Levin said that they agreed on the need to build much more quickly.


“This provides a solution not only to the settlers’ needs, but also to the growth that is absolutely required in Judea and Samaria. The goal of a million Jews in Judea and Samaria is not only practical, but a goal that we need to achieve – and in a short time,” he stated.

Strength on the ground will determine the future, he said, so significantly accelerating construction will make it an “irreversible fact that we are here, in our land, in the Land of Israel.”

https://worldisraelnews.com/next-li...mmunities-in-judea-and-samaria-minister-vows/

 

[berbatrick]

Comments section of the article above is a great read, starts off with this all-timer

No need to annex. Just declare that Yehouda and Shomron are and always has been the land of the Jewish nation. The truth will set the invented "Palestinians" free. Just cleanse them out just they cleansed the peaceful Jews out in 1949 with the help of Albion calling itself great.

 

[RedTiger]

Comments section of the article above is a great read, starts off with this all-timer

Much revisionism.

 

[Giggsyking]

Comments section of the article above is a great read, starts off with this all-timer

disgusting comments

 

[2cents]

25 years since the Baruch Goldstein massacre in Hebron:


The footage there includes a brief clip of then-opposition leader Netanyahu condemning the attack unequivocally. Today Netanyahu is attempting to legitimize the successors to the movement which produced the massacre:

"The candidates in question are members of the Otzma Yehudi Party, known in English as Jewish Power. They are the political heirs of the late Meir Kahane. The Jewish Power Party embraces his policy of ethnic cleansing — that is, the expulsion of Palestinians from Israel and the territory it won in defensive wars with Arab states. One of its leaders holds a party every year at the grave of the Jewish terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who murdered 29 Palestinian civilians in 1994."

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-22/netanyahu-s-most-cynical-political-bargain-yet

Otzma candidate refuses 'Baruch Goldstein ultimatum'
Attorney Itamar Ben-Gvir rejects Rabbi Meidan's demand to remove Baruch Goldstein picture from his home.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/259075

 

[Giggsyking]

Netanyahu is the exact definition of a liar.

 

[Amir]

Netanyahu is the exact definition of a liar.

Naa. A liar sometimes tells the truth. Netenyahu doesn't anymore.

 

[Adisa]

Long for the day he goes to prison.