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[moses]

The cancelled peace talks? Which were apparently called off because of the "Israeli hospital strike, that killed hundreds"

Did the internet do that?

I'm sure without the internet the US president and all other leaders would have heard about an explosion in a hospital?

All the internet did was put us idiots in the loop.

 

[moses]

It's extremely naive to suggest that's all it is.

It is not. They are two very seperate things.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Did the internet do that?

I'm sure without the internet the US president and all other leaders would have heard about an explosion in a hospital?

"The internet" has become the fundamental basis of public perception, which I'm sure influenced the decision. Politicians care desperately about how they are perceived by the public, after all.

And public perception is often at variance with the facts, as understood by experts. Seems to happen more and more often since the advent of social media.

 

[Superden]

Where in my post did I write it has been confirmed?


Yeah the have lied, they all lie and if it comes out, it's excused with crucial state interests.
But still I see an huge difference between Western democracies and dictatorships like Russia and China. Islamic terror organisations like ISIS, Al Qeida or Hamas are then on even another level.

Your in for a real shock when reality bites.
Western democracies are still looking for the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq...

 

[moses]

"The internet" has become the fundamental basis of public perception, which I'm sure influenced the decision.

And public perception is often at variance with the facts, as understood by experts. Seems to happen more and more often since the advent of social media.

In that instance it was too quick in my opinion. It would have had the same effect by phone.

Public perception hasn't even wobbled the dial on Palestine since the dawn of the internet.

 

[B. Munich]

That's true, but what's the material effect of that on Palestine?

That's an effect on media mostly.

It has a tremendous effect on other nations, especially Islamic countries.

The more time passes the more questions about the hospital incident arise.

Examples?
There isn't a deep crater like usually after a bombing or am Israel missile impact.
The walls of the hospital are still standing. How can there be 500+ deaths.
The pictures show the parking lot with destroyed cars but I don't see hundreds of deaths laying around.

I'm not saying who is behind this crime but a lot of things don't add up.

 

[Superden]

It has a tremendous effect on other nations, especially Islamic countries.

The more time passes the more questions about the hospital incident arise.

Examples?
There isn't a deep crater like usually after a bombing or am Israel missile impact.
The walls of the hospital are still standing. How can there be 500+ deaths.
The pictures show the parking lot with destroyed cars but I don't see hundreds of deaths laying around.

I'm not saying who is behind this crime but a lot of things don't add up.

Most people in islamic countries aren't basing their feelings about justice for Palestinians based one event. For a lot of people I know the focus on the hospital is almost like a distraction from the constant oppression and carnage being visited on the Palestinians on a daily basis for a long time.

 

[B. Munich]

Your in for a real shock when reality bites.
Western democracies are still looking for the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq...

Why would I be? We all know that the Bush administration lied about the weapon of mass destruction.

Still I see an huge difference between democracies and dictatorships like Russia North Korea or China.
In Western countries such lies are at least investigated and come to light. In Russia investigating journalists are imprisoned or even killed.

There isn't a perfect country but if I had to choose between living in the US, Russia or China it's a quick and easy decision.

 

[Superden]

It has a tremendous effect on other nations, especially Islamic countries.

The more time passes the more questions about the hospital incident arise.

Examples?
There isn't a deep crater like usually after a bombing or am Israel missile impact.
The walls of the hospital are still standing. How can there be 500+ deaths.
The pictures show the parking lot with destroyed cars but I don't see hundreds of deaths laying around.

I'm not saying who is behind this crime but a lot of things don't add up.

Why not mention the channel 4 news piece that showed the intercepted phone conversation proving it was IslamicJihad as being most certainly fake?

 

[Champ]

It has a tremendous effect on other nations, especially Islamic countries.

The more time passes the more questions about the hospital incident arise.

Examples?
There isn't a deep crater like usually after a bombing or am Israel missile impact.
The walls of the hospital are still standing. How can there be 500+ deaths.
The pictures show the parking lot with destroyed cars but I don't see hundreds of deaths laying around.

I'm not saying who is behind this crime but a lot of things don't add up.

1000 people have been verified to have been sheltering in the courtyard where the main damage took place.

That's how 500 deaths happened I'd imagine.

Damn Internet sleuths.

 

[B. Munich]

Most people in islamic countries aren't basing their feelings about justice for Palestinians based one event. For a lot of people I know the focus on the hospital is almost like a distraction from the constant oppression and carnage being visited on the Palestinians on a daily basis for a long time.

This conflict is going for 75 years since the English gave the Jews land to settle. If anybody is to blame for here, it's the British.

The Palestinians started the first war in 1947/48 and lost. Since then Israel has been attached several times (e.g.1967, 1973) and the Arab countries always lost. If you lose a war, you will have to pay for it, especially if you started it.
Being German I know what I'm talking about here.

 

[VorZakone]

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[adexkola]

All very true. In this thread, on social media, and amongst some people I know personally, many are gleefully outraged that Israel could do something so horrible. Forget the injured and the dead, its just more points to score for them. Now the hospital incident looks more like a failed rocket than anything else the same people are either silent, or doubling down on their original accusations.

To be honest, I had always thought anti-semitism was overblown in the modern world but the last week has shown I was wrong.

"Gleefully outraged" is a crazy term if you think about it (I know you're not thinking)

Linking "gleeful outrage" to anti-Semitism is the cherry on the shit sundae

 

[11101]

"Gleefully outraged" is a crazy term if you think about it (I know you're not thinking)

Linking "gleeful outrage" to anti-Semitism is the cherry on the shit sundae

You should have a look through some of the posts when the news first broke...

 

[B. Munich]

1000 people have been verified to have been sheltering in the courtyard where the main damage took place.

That's how 500 deaths happened I'd imagine.

Damn Internet sleuths.

Really? I don't see any of these 1000 people in the pictures before the strike and I don't see hundreds of deaths after.

However, I saw the killing squads attacking Israel on October 7th and killing hundreds of innocent people.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Pogue Mahone]

"Gleefully outraged" is a crazy term if you think about it (I know you're not thinking)

Linking "gleeful outrage" to anti-Semitism is the cherry on the shit sundae

Gleeful outrage is a very recognisable emotion on this place, that's for sure. Go to a player performance thread when they have a bad game and read the posts from people who never rated that player.

 

[Drizzle]

It's not anti-semitic to oppose Israel.

Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.

Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.

This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.

 

[berbatrick]

Wonder what the public reaction to that was in the US? Firstly, did it even make the main news there?

no idea, this report was from the wire. it's on the guardian home page near the top, but not on NYT.

 

[adexkola]

Most people in islamic countries aren't basing their feelings about justice for Palestinians based one event. For a lot of people I know the focus on the hospital is almost like a distraction from the constant oppression and carnage being visited on the Palestinians on a daily basis for a long time.

It's insane/idiotic to think the furor is simply about this specific hospital, and that once it's plausible that Hamas/Jihad/ISIS did it, critics would go, " oh well, sorry for the confusion Israel, you're free to proceed with your otherwise legal and moral activity"

You should have a look through some of the posts when the news first broke...

Yeah I didn't see any posts on here. The mods are really good at stamping down on such nonsense

And people who are anti-Semitic don't need the excuse of Israel's apartheid to be anti-Semitic, they just go on these very weird unprompted rants about banks and conspiracies and Hollywood

It's a lazy slur, and it's applied specifically on this topic to shut down criticism. There are many Jews in the US who have done nothing but criticize Israel non-stop: are they anti-Semitic too?

 

[Drainy]

This conflict is going for 75 years since the English gave the Jews land to settle. If anybody is to blame for here, it's the British.

The Palestinians started the first war in 1947/48 and lost. Since then Israel has been attached several times (e.g.1967, 1973) and the Arab countries always lost. If you lose a war, you will have to pay for it, especially if you started it.
Being German I know what I'm talking about here.

To my understanding, and correct me if my understanding is wrong, but the context of the British decision to split the land being that the population of Jews was substantial and conflict was anticipated. Including the increase in Zionist terrorism, but also attitudes towards Jews from the people.

They went to the UN for an agreed outcome. They divided the land, and proposed an administrated zone in Jerusalem. The UN resolution passed. The Jews agreed, the Arabs didn't, war broke out and it's been a cycle ever since.

 

[Champ]

Really? I don't see any of these 1000 people in the pictures before the strike and I don't see hundreds of deaths after.

However, I saw the killing squads attacking Israel on October 7th and killing hundreds of innocent people.

Ah, so the Anglican church is lying about this? To what degree would they have anything to gain from lying?

Canon Richard Sewell, the dean of St George's College in Jerusalem, told the BBC that about 1,000 displaced people were sheltering in the courtyard when it was hit,

 

[Buster15]

I don't know why I'm so caught up with this specific thing. Israel have now made countless airstrikes, blown up countless families and children, destroyed thousands of homes, forced over a million to flee and denied the whole Gazan population basic supplies for going on a fortnight. Nontheless for some reason I feel obliged to reassert just why the evidence this was a malfunctioning rocket is so compelling to me.

1. Least compelling. Here's video footage from Netiv Haasara. One of the rocket seems to veer to the left. You can see the divergence best around 7 seconds. All other rockets proceed in a fairly straight line. A short time later an explosion takes place on the other side of a hillock. Unfortunately there is no clock on this footage:

Spoiler

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2. Here's a fixed camera from Netivot. Again this shows what very much looks like the same barrage of rockets as (1) emanating from the Gaza Strip, one of which we witness exploding on the ground (at 18.59):

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3. That explosion looks very much like another angle of the explosion that occurred in the Al Jazeera clip at the same time (again, at 18.59). This time we see the rocket malfunction, change direction and fall apart. The explosion at the hospital appears to take place some moments later right below its last position:

Spoiler

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4. That explosion looks very much like the first angle that came to light:

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Taken all together I feel these clips tell quite the compelling story. We see a bunch of missiles being fired around the time of the explosion. We potentially see a missile diverge from the pack. We certainly see a missile malfunction and fall apart in mid air. We then see an explosion on the ground below it moments later. I find it bizarre for the channel 4 reporter to maintain that there is no evidence to suggest a link between a missile that clearly malfunctioned, changed direction and fell apart and the explosion that occurred right below it seconds later. It's just inexplicable that someone could say that with a straight face.

Then, the next day instead of the expected destroyed hospital and rubble we are shown what is actually a fairly localised blast area with huge fire damage but little in the way of actual destruction.

Here's 3 Osint evaluations of that damage. These accounts are often cited in broadsheets so I guess they're at least somewhat legit. There are many more accounts saying the same thing:

Spoiler: Justin_Br0nk

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https://rusi.org/people/bronk

Spoiler: Nathan Ruser

Thread:

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https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/nathan-ruser

Spoiler: OAlexanderDk

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No idea, dude has a substack and is cited by broadsheets

All in all we see a very coherent picture. From the night before we witness rockets being fired from Gaza around the time of the explosion. We witness a missile malfunctioning and disintegrating at precisely the moment and in precisely the vicinity that the hospital was struck. We witness the explosion and huge fireball. The next day we have pictures straight from the site. Cited experts all seem to claim that the scene they're witnessing would be unusual for regular Israeli munitions but somewhat in keeping with a malfunctioning rocket igniting its unused propellant. This fits in very neatly with the story our eyes told us happened the night before.

It's not conclusive, but (to me at least) it is very, very persuasive.

I must comend you on this post which I have read with interest and not that much knowledge of your previous posts. So I am not sure of your position regarding Palestine or Israel which was important.

I have tended to watch Chanel 4 news rather than BBC or Sky.
And like you, I didn't quite understand the reporting of the hospital situation.

But I did listen to Radio 5Live this morning and there was an Army explosives guy going through the type of evidence needed to make a conclusive assessment.
He listed 7 things including the colour of the blast and soil samples.

He was obviously guarded on what he thought, but did offer, when pressed, that simply based on what he had seen so far, it did not seem to point to a typical IDF weapon. Especially the size of crater and lack of ballistic damage.
He was also of the view that we are not likely to be given access to the site for further forensic assessment.

So. Make of that what you will. But I and many have said before, those minds which have already been made up will be closed and not receptive to this type of information.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.

Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.

This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.

I'm sure antisemitism is mixed in with the legitimate criticism of Israel. But it shouldn't be used as a distraction from this legitimate criticism. Which seems to happen a lot.

 

[berbatrick]

The Palestinians started the first war in 1947/48 and lost. Since then Israel has been attached several times (e.g.1967, 1973) and the Arab countries always lost. If you lose a war, you will have to pay for it, especially if you started it.
Being German I know what I'm talking about here.

As would any native american!

 

[SilentWitness]

Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.

Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.

This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.

Perhaps @11101 was alluding to that but in the context of their posts it appeared as if they were labelling general criticism and opposition of Israel as anti-semitic which is just untrue and unhelpful. There will be people who are anti-Israel who are anti-semitic and people who are anti-Palestine that are islamophobic since they will link Hamas and Palestine as one, but that should not be a one fits all label which is posed when legitimate criticism is put to Israel.

 

[B. Munich]

To my understanding, and correct me if my understanding is wrong, but the context of the British decision to split the land being that the population of Jews was substantial and conflict was anticipated. Including the increase in Zionist terrorism, but also attitudes towards Jews from the people.

They went to the UN for an agreed outcome. They divided the land, and proposed an administrated zone in Jerusalem. The UN resolution passed. The Jews agreed, the Arabs didn't, war broke out and it's been a cycle ever since.

Yeah that's my understanding too.

 

[B. Munich]

Ah, so the Anglican church is lying about this? To what degree would they have anything to gain from lying?

Canon Richard Sewell, the dean of St George's College in Jerusalem, told the BBC that about 1,000 displaced people were sheltering in the courtyard when it was hit,

Nobody questioned that there were many people looking for shelter in the hospital.
What I'm questioning are the claims of Hamas that over 500 are dead and thousands insured.

Where are the dead people on the parking lot? Where are pictures of thousands of injured people.

If Israel had bombed the hospital, no more walls would stand. Just look at the videos a few before when the bombed huge buildings in Gaza.
The hospital is still standing. Only impact area shown is the parking place without any significant crater.

 

[adexkola]

Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.

Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.

This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.

It's not a coincidence, there is a correlation. Solution is simple: simultaneously tackle anti-Semitism and Apartheid. You don't ignore the latter so that incidents of the former occur less.

Counter question: is there any single country more protected relative to it's crimes than Israel? I can't think of any.

On the bolded, you're reaching massively. When Israel is being criticized, you assess the validity of the criticism. You don't ask, "yeah but do they mutter "fecking Jews" at breakfast" because it's irrelevant. If they say something or something that is anti-Semitic, then call them out.

 

[B. Munich]

As would any native american!

Weird comparison. I was not aware the native Americans started the war.

 

[The Corinthian]

State Department official resigns, citing ‘destructive’ decisions in Israel-Hamas war
The official, who worked in the division overseeing the transfer of arms to allies, said the administration’s decisions contributed to his having to make an unbearable moral compromise.

“In my 11 years I have made more moral compromises than I can recall, each heavily, but each with my promise to myself in mind, and intact,” the official, Josh Paul, wrote in a post explaining his decision. “I am leaving today because I believe that in our current course with regards to the continued — indeed, expanded and expedited — provision of lethal arms to Israel — I have reached the end of that bargain.”

“I cannot work in support of a set of major policy decisions, including rushing more arms to one side of the conflict, that I believe to be shortsighted, destructive, unjust, and contradictory to the very values that we publicly espouse,” he added.

“This Administration’s response — and much of Congress’ as well — is an impulsive reaction built on confirmation bias, political convenience, intellectual bankruptcy, and bureaucratic inertia,” Paul wrote in his statement. “That is to say, it is immensely disappointing, and entirely unsurprising.”

His statement was interesting.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/...uctive-decisions-in-israel-hamas-war-00122380

 

[moses]

I'm sure antisemitism is mixed in with the legitimate criticism of Israel. But it shouldn't be used as a distraction from this legitimate criticism. Which seems to happen a lot.

It's an immediate shut down in so many circles.

 

[adexkola]

Gleeful outrage is a very recognisable emotion on this place, that's for sure. Go to a player performance thread when they have a bad game and read the posts from people who never rated that player.

Those nutters aren't outraged, they're simply happy

And that's sport which is much more inconsequential. It's a really heavy accusation and assumption that many people on this topic are gleeful at the death of innocents on either side.

 

[moses]

Most people in islamic countries aren't basing their feelings about justice for Palestinians based one event. For a lot of people I know the focus on the hospital is almost like a distraction from the constant oppression and carnage being visited on the Palestinians on a daily basis for a long time.

Yep, that's my point. The internet is not the problem here. To the people who matter this is not knee jerk. It's generational.

 

[MDFC Manager]

no idea, this report was from the wire. it's on the guardian home page near the top, but not on NYT.

Thanks!

 

[Drizzle]

Counter question: is there any single country more protected relative to it's crimes than Israel? I can't think of any.

Saudi Arabia and China spring immediately to mind.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.

Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.

This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.

I always hate it when deflection tactics like this are done. The reason Israel has hate spewed on it is because no other country practicing occupation, crimes against humanity and apartheid is as protected in the West as they are. I'm not aware of any other country whose boycott has been made illegal in countries in the West.

Yes there are also bad regimes in the world, but you know what? They have sanctions against them, not the opposite where imposing sanctions against them is illegal.

So yes, there is a reason why Israel gets more attention. They are murdering a group of people whose plight resonates with a lot others, and they are being protected by their white friends who have practiced similar evils around the world.

It's not anti-semetism, it's anti-apartheid, anti-occupation and anti-genocide.

I would absolutely zero issues with Israel if they simply feck off from the occupied territories and return to the 1967 borders (that's ignoring the right to self return, which is a valiant claim from Palestinans as well). Until then, their government is sc*m

 

[Berbaclass]

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[Pogue Mahone]

Those nutters aren't outraged, they're simply happy

And that's sport which is much more inconsequential. It's a really heavy accusation and assumption that many people on this topic are gleeful at the death of innocents on either side.

Oh they’re definitely outraged. The venom in their posts gives it away.

And yeah, it’s a glib comparison. I had to think twice before using it. But seemed the best way to explain what he’s getting at. I think you’re a little naive if you don’t think that people engage in a constant online war about issues like this don’t feel ever so slightly warm and fuzzy when “the enemy” is outed as having committed an atrocity, despite the horrible context.

Another example would be the emotions of right wing culture warriors when a perpetrator of some mass killing turns out to be black/brown.

 

[Buster15]

State Department official resigns, citing ‘destructive’ decisions in Israel-Hamas war
The official, who worked in the division overseeing the transfer of arms to allies, said the administration’s decisions contributed to his having to make an unbearable moral compromise.







His statement was interesting.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/...uctive-decisions-in-israel-hamas-war-00122380

As someone who has taken a great interest in the ongoing and recent events in the Middle East, can I ask you for your thoughts regarding the developments surrounding the tragic hospital situation and on the ensuing information relating to what may have happened.

This is not a trick question. I am genuinely interested in what you make of it.