Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Conor]

So this is what pisses me off. It may well be irrational and I’m sure I’ll get a load of insults. I touched on it before and will try to explain.

When something happens, something truly awful, people lurch to social media and use it as their media ammo to back up a point of view. They are so fecking detached from the reality of violence being actual life, and instead fire it from their cannon to backup a politidal viewpoint. When it’s pointed out the horrors don’t suit their viewpoint, they simply move on to the next bit of violence on social media to continue to perpetuate their goals.

The fact that truth barely matters is one thing, it’s the callous disregard for the reality to promote a view and build a truth for themselves. The actual people affected are discarded along the way, mere pawns to get what you want. When I see a picture of a dead guy, it’s a dead guy. He has a family, friends, aspirations, it’s all gone. Those dead babies hit by air strikes, their lives had barely begun. Yet you see people almost gleeful presenting them as an exhibit.

But I feel often in this thread, people are simply consuming suffering for the sake of media engagement to make a point. I realise this is quite a charge, but it often feels that way and is quite sickening. They ignore reality, truth, suffering, all for a goal.

And that goal often seems to sow chaos pain and more suffering.

I would say that you post about deaths and incidents in probably the least empathetic way of nearly anyone in the thread, so while I completely agree with what you're saying, you don't abide by your own suggestions at all

 

[Drizzle]

I'm sure antisemitism is mixed in with the legitimate criticism of Israel. But it shouldn't be used as a distraction from this legitimate criticism. Which seems to happen a lot.

I agree.

But you also know it works the other way round too. Push back on obvious antisemitic-inspired criticism of Israel (and you acknowledge it happens) and you'll get 'playing the antisemitism card again, yawn'.

Another example. People go round spitting hate on 'zionists', when they don't even know what zionism is. A significant proportion of British jews would identify as zionist, even though they disagree with actions of the Israeli government. So people saying 'zionists are scum' is going to be experienced as virulent antisemitism to them. Whether it was meant or not.

 

[Halftrack]

Biggest sticking point with regards to the hospital bombing is the fact that the Israeli felt the need to release that fake recording, and also they're denial of there being a crater, despite there being a crater in the very pictures they used.

 

[Halftrack]

But I feel often in this thread, people are simply consuming suffering for the sake of media engagement to make a point. I realise this is quite a charge, but it often feels that way and is quite sickening. They ignore reality, truth, suffering, all for a goal.

It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

 

[11101]

Perhaps @11101 was alluding to that but in the context of their posts it appeared as if they were labelling general criticism and opposition of Israel as anti-semitic which is just untrue and unhelpful. There will be people who are anti-Israel who are anti-semitic and people who are anti-Palestine that are islamophobic since they will link Hamas and Palestine as one, but that should not be a one fits all label which is posed when legitimate criticism is put to Israel.

It is what I was alluding to. Israel is deserving of a lot of criticism and not all that criticism is anti-semitic in nature, however this last week has shown an underlying tone to much of it that really shouldn't be there. The chanting, the student posters, the violence against Jews and vandalism of Jewish areas, and yes the general tone of comment from a lot of people. I hadn't realised just how close to the surface a general dislike of all things Jewish was in some people. And yes, some of them are in this thread.

 

[Conor]

@Halftrack Glad I wasn't the only person mind boggled by this

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.

Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.

This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.

Yes, Palestine.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree.

But you also know it works the other way round too. Push back on obvious antisemitic-inspired criticism of Israel (and you acknowledge it happens) and you'll get 'playing the antisemitism card again, yawn'.

Another example. People go round spitting hate on 'zionists', when they don't even know what zionism is. A significant proportion of British jews would identify as zionist, even though they disagree with actions of the Israeli government. So people saying 'zionists are scum' is going to be experienced as virulent antisemitism to them. Whether it was meant or not.

That’s interesting. I always thought Zionist was short hand for aggressive Israeli nationalism? I’m terrible at geopolitics though. Actually I’m also separately terrible at geography and politics. Zionist has another meaning?

 

[SilentWitness]

It is what I was alluding to. Israel is deserving of a lot of criticism and not all that criticism is anti-semitic in nature, however this last week has shown an underlying tone to much of it that really shouldn't be there. The chanting, the student posters, the violence against Jews and vandalism of Jewish areas, and yes the general tone of comment from a lot of people. I hadn't realised just how close to the surface a general dislike of all things Jewish was in some people. And yes, some of them are in this thread.

That's quite a strong claim to suggest that people in this thread are anti-semitic and have strong general dislike of all things Jewish.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Biggest sticking point with regards to the hospital bombing is the fact that the Israeli felt the need to release that fake recording, and also they're denial of there being a crater, despite there being a crater in the very pictures they used.

They very clearly refer to the absence the large, deep crater that their bombs cause. With images to show what they mean. If that’s your ‘gotcha’ it’s pretty weak.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

It's an immediate shut down in so many circles.

A lot of anti-israel Jewish commentators have said the same thing, it can be weaponised to quell criticism.

 

[JagUTD]

It's somewhat odd to dismiss claims of antisemitism at a time when numerous governments are reporting significant increases in antisemitism on the back of what's happening.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

That's quite a strong claim to suggest that people in this thread are anti-semitic and have strong general dislike of all things Jewish.

Yeah, it's an odd assertion that kinda ignores the fact Mosques are ramping up security as well.

 

[moses]

A lot of anti-israel Jewish commentators have said the same thing, it can be weaponised to quell criticism.

Ah it's well known to anyone who has any level of interest. And in fairness it works, so why wouldn't they use it? It's up to others to make the distinction clear.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

It's somewhat odd to dismiss claims of antisemitism at a time when numerous governments are reporting significant increases in antisemitism on the back of what's happening.

They're also reporting increases in Islamophobia but this is usually ignored by, well, everyone as not an actual issue.

 

[moses]

It's somewhat odd to dismiss claims of antisemitism at a time when numerous governments are reporting significant increases in antisemitism on the back of what's happening.

Nobody is dismissing anti semitism. Jusy sayimg criticism of Israel is pretty legitimate considering their actions.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Here's 3 Osint evaluations of that damage. These accounts are often cited in broadsheets so I guess they're at least somewhat legit.

Spoiler: Nathan Ruser

Thread:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/nathan-ruser

Setting aside the validity of the claims, it's good to take a look at these people.

ASPI is a think tank established by the Australian government, which recieves hefty funding from the United States Defense and State departments, and from weapons manufacturing companies. They are constantly rattling for conflict with China. They have been criticized by various former political figures in Australia as being "the propaganda arm of the CIA and the U.S. government" and pushing a "one-sided, pro-American view of the world." They have worked with Twitter to ban hundreds of thousands of accounts for "spreading narratives favorable to the Communist Party of China," narratives such as "praising China's response to covid."

You can take the analysis as seriously as you want, but it's important to understand how what is and isn't 'legit' gets mediated.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Yeah, it's an odd assertion that kinda ignores the fact Mosques are ramping up security as well.

True, I mean a kid was stabbed 26 times for being Muslim but yea let's only focus on the increase in anti-semetism because who cares about Muslims being attacked.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Ah it's well known to anyone who has any level of interest. And in fairness it works, so why wouldn't they use it? It's up to others to make the distinction clear.

Yeah, like "Israel gets a soft ride from the international community on its egregious behaviour in the West Bank" ≠ "Israel and the Jews are part of the global order which controls the media and governments"

 

[Drizzle]

I would absolutely zero issues with Israel if they simply feck off from the occupied territories and return to the 1967 borders

We differ on most things on this issue, but I'll agree with you on this.

One thing I'd add is that this must be done while protecting Israel's security, otherwise it'll never happen.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

True, I mean a kid was stabbed 26 times for being Muslim but yea let's only focus on the increase in anti-semetism because who cares about Muslims being attacked.

Yeah, this is always glossed over, because Islamophobia isn't a thing apparently nor is it meant to be a concern.

 

[moses]

Yeah, like "Israel gets a soft ride from the international community on its egregious behaviour in the West Bank" ≠ "Israel and the Jews are part of the global order which controls the media and governments"

Exactly. It'd be just tedious if it wasn't so debilitating for actual discussion.

 

[Beachryan]

Counter question: is there any single country more protected relative to it's crimes than Israel? I can't think of any.

I can think of plenty nation states that have done far, far worse than Israel. Pol pots Cambodia? Yemen? The uighur genocide in China. The rubble that was once Syria. Sadams treatment of the Kurds. Hell everyone's treatment of the Kurds. That's just off the top of my head.

Israel is doing awful, lamentable things right now, but it's hardly unique in that.

 

[Drizzle]

That’s interesting. I always thought Zionist was short hand for aggressive Israeli nationalism? I’m terrible at geopolitics though. Actually I’m also separately terrible at geography and politics. Zionist has another meaning?

Well this was covered in some great posts earlier in the thread. And I'm not a historical expert.

From my perspective it is Israeli nationalism, but that's experienced by most as the basic right to have a Jewish state. Now how that's achieved in the real world, with Palestinians as neighbours on the same piece of land, is a matter of debate.

But you can be zionist and believe that the Palestinians must have a free and viable state.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Exactly. It'd be just tedious if it wasn't so debilitating for actual discussion.

Trouble I find is that all tropes and stereotypes always have to have a tiny amount of truth to them to be effective, hence why David Icke's we are run by lizard people isn't mainstream.

Doesn't mean it's incumbent across the entire group or can be used a predictive tool, not should be the basis for any worthwhile worldview.

 

[JagUTD]

They're also reporting increases in Islamophobia but this is usually ignored by, well, everyone as not an actual issue.

I've seen and it's also a noteworthy effect of the ongoing war but I think if you look at the sheer level of threat Jews are facing now, to the extent someone posted a link from Germany yesterday where the Mayor warned Jews to hide anything that could identify them as Jewish, it invokes visions of a dark period in human history because it's not something that happens now. Yet it is happening.

 

[Simbo]

1000 people have been verified to have been sheltering in the courtyard where the main damage took place.

That's how 500 deaths happened I'd imagine.

Damn Internet sleuths.

Verified how?

 

[11101]

That's quite a strong claim to suggest that people in this thread are anti-semitic and have strong general dislike of all things Jewish.

We had people saying the Hamas attack was deserved and a virtual Twitter bot spamming everything Israel has ever done wrong. I don't it's that far off the mark.

 

[hasanejaz88]

We differ on most things on this issue, but I'll agree with you on this.

One thing I'd add is that this must be done while protecting Israel's security, otherwise it'll never happen.

Israel tactics of dealing with Palestinans isn't indicitive of them wanting peace. Kicking people from their homes, destroying their land, controlling everything that comes in and out of a territory to the point that period living there are miserable, and lastly murdering whole families in bombs all the while expecting peace from them is asinine.

 

[VivaObertan]

Wow. They must be seriously on edge. That’s mad.

Yeah it was shocking to come from Manchester with certain expectations of Berlin (like you said, freedom, liberty etc.) and witness numerous occasions of Riot Police throwing their weight around to nullify any single voice in support of Palestine.

Just found a couple of photos I took, there were other instances too that I didn't capture. It actually reminded me that a couple of people had their phones confiscated for recording the police, which was totally unexpected. These photos were taken underneath the Fernsehturm and above the subway closest to Brandenberg gate.

In the photo with the stairs, there were close to 25 of those vans on-site, each filled with 4+ police.
In the photo with the tower, there were maybe 6-7 vans behind us.

 

[berbatrick]

Weird comparison. I was not aware the native Americans started the war.

It's even weirder that Zionists made this comparison then!

“The Iron Wall” by Vladimir Ze’ev Jabotisnky (November 4, 1923)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot

The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.

And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or ( as some people will remind us ) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands; but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad.

This is equally true of the Arabs. Our Peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine , in return for cultural and economic advantages. I repudiate this conception of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are five hundred years behind us, they have neither our endurance nor our determination; but they are just as good psychologists as we are, and their minds have been sharpened like ours by centuries of fine-spun logomachy. We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. They feel at least the same instinctive jealous love of Palestine, as the old Aztecs felt for ancient Mexico, and the Sioux for their rolling Prairies.

That is where the explicit comparisons to Native Americans end, and where the more general remarks about colonisation continue:

Spoiler

To imagine, as our Arabophiles do, that they will voluntarily consent to the realisation of Zionism, in return for the moral and material conveniences which the Jewish colonist brings with him, is a childish notion, which has at bottom a kind of contempt for the Arab people; it means that they despise the Arab race, which they regard as a corrupt mob that can be bought and sold, and are willing to give up their fatherland for a good railway system.

That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel."

Colonisation carries its own explanation, the only possible explanation, unalterable and as clear as daylight to every ordinary Jew and every ordinary Arab.
Colonisation can have only one aim, and Palestine Arabs cannot accept this aim. It lies in the very nature of things, and in this particular regard nature cannot be changed.

We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism.

Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else pive population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.

In this matter there is no difference between our "militarists" and our "vegetarians". Except that the first prefer that the iron wall should consist of Jewish soldiers, and the others are content that they should be British.

We all demand that there should be an iron wall. Yet we keep spoiling our own case, by talking about "agreement" which means telling the Mandatory Government that the important thing is not the iron wall, but discussions. Empty rhetoric of this kind is dangerous. And that is why itis not only a pleasure but a duty to discredit it and to demonstrate that it is both fantastic and dishonest.

And here, from Herzl, is the more "vegetarian" attitude that Jabotinsky was referring to within the spoilered quote, about the Iron Wall keeping the Arabs out being built by British rather than Jewish soldiers:

If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.

Side note, It is really remarkable that 120 years after these texts were written, the leader of Europe and the leader of Israel are defending the civilisation from barbarism!

Spoiler

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I've seen and it's also a noteworthy effect of the ongoing war but I think if you look at the sheer level of threat Jews are facing now, to the extent someone posted a link from Germany yesterday where the Mayor warned Jews to hide anything that could identify them as Jewish, it invokes visions of a dark period in human history because it's not something that happens now. Yet it is happening.

I think this is an overreaction tbh and doesn't do anything to help the situation except terrify a population of people and make a news headline.

If you keep seeing everything as a threat and your community keeps telling you that you're under threat then you're anxiety and fear will only heighten.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

All the technology in this world and they can't figure it out yet? Is it that difficult or is it just a massive cover-up?

If I was leaning into my huge cynical side, it's in Israel's best interest to make sure the world believe it was Hamas (even if it was them) because huge swathes of international, tacit support for their actions will start to evaporate.

I'm not saying it was Israel but the optics of this event, it's hugely advantageous for Israel to either prove it was a rogue Hamas munition (which is likely) or muddy the water so much that it cannot be proved they bombed it.

 

[Buster15]

Biggest sticking point with regards to the hospital bombing is the fact that the Israeli felt the need to release that fake recording, and also they're denial of there being a crater, despite there being a crater in the very pictures they used.

Has it been proven as a fake recording?
And in my opinion, while there indeed is a crater, even you should acknowledge that it is pretty small compared to the other bomb craters in Gaza.

 

[Kaos]

I can think of plenty nation states that have done far, far worse than Israel. Pol pots Cambodia? Yemen? The uighur genocide in China. The rubble that was once Syria. Sadams treatment of the Kurds. Hell everyone's treatment of the Kurds. That's just off the top of my head.

Israel is doing awful, lamentable things right now, but it's hardly unique in that.

I think the issue being discussed isn't the scale of the suffering inflicted, but rather how extensively protected and absolved the country is of the crimes they commit. Russia and China don't have the bulk of the 'democratic world' standing hand in hand declaring they stand with them, or that they have every right to defend themselves. Nor is there the same level of doubt as to whether they've committed the crimes they do. When Russia bombs a school or hospital in Ukraine, there isn't any scrutiny of the claim, we just accept they were culpable and what follows is universal condemnation.

Israel on the other hand serves as some peculiar case study, where Western leaders rush to proclamations of support, and rival politicians tripping over one another to prove how much more loyal and supportive they are towards them. There are posters here for instance who suddenly morph into bomb impact experts to try and absolve Israel of bombing a hospital (because the reality of that is so unfathomable), but haven't ever questioned the validity of similar events in Ukraine.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

We had people saying the Hamas attack was deserved and a virtual Twitter bot spamming everything Israel has ever done wrong. I don't it's that far off the mark.

I don't think people it was deserved on here. I think people said "what do you expect given the history of the region"

 

[hasanejaz88]

Has it been proven as a fake recording?
And in my opinion, while there indeed is a crater, even you should acknowledge that it is pretty small compared to the other bomb craters in Gaza.

Given the fact that the audio recording contradicted their own evidence about where the supposed misfired missiles were launched from, not even considering the experts said the accent doesn't match with Gaza, I'm taking it's BS.

 

[The Corinthian]

As someone who has taken a great interest in the ongoing and recent events in the Middle East, can I ask you for your thoughts regarding the developments surrounding the tragic hospital situation and on the ensuing information relating to what may have happened.

This is not a trick question. I am genuinely interested in what you make of it.

I posted about it yesterday. And I posted the C4 analysis of the situation. It’s not clear to me, but I’m inclined to believe that the IDF did it and have muddied the waters and manipulated the situation. I’m not 100% certain they did it, and I’m using their previous pattern of behaviour in my assessment but that’s where I’m at.

 

[NicolaSacco]

If I was leaning into my huge cynical side, it's in Israel's best interest to make sure the world believe it was Hamas (even if it was them) because huge swathes of international, tacit support for their actions will start to evaporate.

I'm not saying it was Israel but the optics of this event, it's hugely advantageous for Israel to either prove it was a rogue Hamas munition (which is likely) or muddy the water so much that it cannot be proved they bombed it.

That’s definitively true, but also works the other way. It would be a major victory for Hamas for that global support to evaporate, so I’d expect them (if it was one of their rockets) to do the same muddying of waters.

 

[do.ob]

Yeah it was shocking to come from Manchester with certain expectations of Berlin (like you said, freedom, liberty etc.) and witness numerous occasions of Riot Police throwing their weight around to nullify any single voice in support of Palestine.

Just found a couple of photos I took, there were other instances too that I didn't capture. It actually reminded me that a couple of people had their phones confiscated for recording the police, which was totally unexpected. These photos were taken underneath the Fernsehturm and above the subway closest to Brandenberg gate.

In the photo with the stairs, there were close to 25 of those vans on-site, each filled with 4+ police.
In the photo with the tower, there were maybe 6-7 vans behind us.

People have been holding illegal demonstrations with attendants in the thousands that turned violent in the end, so knowing that, they are probably taking a proactive stance and stop people, who think their opinion is so special it is above the law, in their tracks.