Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[HTG]

As far as posting tweets is concerned, from my point of view, it is sharing information. I don't see everything that goes on in social media, and the algorithm will tend to show me what it thinks I want to see. I welcome news from everywhere because I'm not there.

The issue is that it’s not information that gets shared in many cases. It’s disinformation. And this is harmful and can actually be somewhat dangerous in certain cases. That’s the issue. Just take a look at the discussion after the hospital was hit. That was a pure disaster, because even experienced posters who are usually more reliable fell for disinformation and shared it.
There’s absolutely no value in a lot of tweets shared here. And in some cases it is as others have said before: people just find tweets agreeing with their opinion, don’t do anything to verify what’s being said and just post it.

 

[Carolina Red]

A Washington Institute poll from July 2023 found that only 57% of Gazans held a “somewhat positive” opinion of Hamas."

Ok, so you should really check behind what those talking heads on TV say before posting it here and using it to claim “so they’re not all that innocent"

Here’s the link:https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...gainst-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

Your TV talking head conveniently skipped over this…
“In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014”

 

[Carolina Red]

@Carolina Red I was right.

Indeed you were!

 

[Giggsyking]

Why are Palestinians dying in the occupied west bank? I thought this is a war against terrorists in Gaza?

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Assuming that almost all voters are still alive doesn't quick match gives around 15% of the current population voting for Hamas in 2006? That's also assuming that everyone voted.

75.9% of the population were minors or not born in 2006.

Something like that. They won with 44% of 76% turnout back then. And it was pointed out that they won due to them promising to fight corruption rather than their anti-Israel stance (which 2/3 of voters wanted them to change anyway). But turns out it's better to cling onto parts of what you have heard on a German political talkshow.

 

[RedDevil@84]

You can of course entitled to your own opinion and believe people aren't responsible for their government.
I think otherwise, probably due to being raised in a nation filled with guilt about what happened during WW2.

So civilians are directly responsible for what their elected govt does and should pay for what the govt does. It is a horrific take.

 

[RexHamilton]

Again you making assumptions I never expressed.
57% aren't murderous psychopaths but support a terror organization that is! So they aren't that innocent. Without the strong support the Hamas terrorist organisation gets within the population they couldn't do what they are doing.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes. As a German I know what I'm talking about.

Christ almighty, comparing Gazans to Nazi supporters.

My point was, 57% of a population don't usually lean towards the terrorist organisation. So ask yourself why those in Gaza might? Living in an open air prison, in an apartheid state, where your voice isn't heard, nevermind matter. Where you're stateless, so you can never leave if you want to return to your home, where your people's land is being encroached up on daily, where you can be shot by a settler who will face no repercussions. Maybe 57% of the population feel that there is no alternative. Maybe 57% of the population tried like their parents and grandparents to find a peaceful, political solution only to find the situation worsen as the decades went on. Maybe 57% of the population see no other way. SO what's your solution? Shell them? Create more orphans who hate the state of Israel and see no alternative but to join the extremists? Will your solution be the same in 10 years time when that 57% is 67%?

 

[Buster15]

This is where you do yourself no favours. That But is quite important.

And questions can be loaded, they are not just neutral because they are questions. We had that with other questions in this thread.

I'm not sure what your point about Crimea is, but whether it was 30 years, 300 years, or 30 months ago, annexation or occupation of people against their will is just wrong,

Mate. It is now perfectly clear that anyone who does not meekly go along with other posters views is not welcome to post in this thread. Which is a shame and tantamount to censorship and Bullying. Repeat. Bullying in what is supposed to be an open forum. You are setting a dangerous precedent here.
But as you tagline says - can't we just be nice (as long as you agree with me that is).

 

[Giggsyking]

Tweet

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Hmmmmmmm.

 

[Red in STL]

That's fecking ominous.

He's been talking to Trump

 

[moses]

Mate. It is now perfectly clear that anyone who does not meekly go along with other posters views is not welcome to post in this thread. Which is a shame and tantamount to censorship and Bullying. Repeat. Bullying in what is supposed to be an open forum. You are setting a dangerous precedent here.
But as you tagline says - can't we just be nice (as long as you agree with me that is).

Wow. That's a ridiculous response to a nothing post.

 

[Carolina Red]

Mate. It is now perfectly clear that anyone who does not meekly go along with other posters views is not welcome to post in this thread.

Have you been threadbanned?

 

[Red in STL]

As far as posting tweets is concerned, from my point of view, it is sharing information. I don't see everything that goes on in social media, and the algorithm will tend to show me what it thinks I want to see. I welcome news from everywhere because I'm not there.

Are you sure you don't mean sharing disinformation?

 

[Real Name]

You think all Germans who died supported Hitler? I argued like you do before and was told the Germans who were against Hitler but didn't do anything against him were add guilty.

So what's your logic exactly, they deserved to die?

Also how many people in Isreal support the government who is at fault for encouraing settlers in West Bank to do whatever they want whenever they want to Palestinians there. Among many, other things.

 

[Gavinb33]

I will freely admit my knowledge on this issue is far from as extensive as some of the posters on this forum this is clear, i keep seeing people posting about the need for a 2 state solution but isnt that impossible from both sides in reality from what i have read which is again mostly all in recent weeks it suggests that the Arabs/Palestinians have always rejected Israel occupying the land it does and the need to reclaim that land by armed struggle or other means and then you have Israel obviously wanting to defend itself and its land from this and then themselves land grabbing in the west bank in a pretty abhorrent way, do not the actions and desires of both sides lead to believe that a 2 state is not even remotely viable from either side?

 

[Andy_Cole]

Again you making assumptions I never expressed.
57% aren't murderous psychopaths but support a terror organization that is! So they aren't that innocent. Without the strong support the Hamas terrorist organisation gets within the population they couldn't do what they are doing.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes. As a German I know what I'm talking about.

So you support Israel, a murderous regime.

 

[VorZakone]

I will freely admit my knowledge on this issue is far from as extensive as some of the posters on this forum this is clear, i keep seeing people posting about the need for a 2 state solution but isnt that impossible from both sides in reality from what i have read which is again mostly all in recent weeks it suggests that the Arabs/Palestinians have always rejected Israel occupying the land it does and the need to reclaim that land by armed struggle or other means and then you have Israel obviously wanting to defend itself and its land from this and then themselves land grabbing in the west bank in a pretty abhorrent way, do not the actions and desires of both sides lead to believe that a 2 state is not even remotely viable from either side?

Not necessarily. Fatah recognizes Israel but as far as I can tell wants to go back to 1967 borders. Not sure about Hamas' stance here (people keep debating about what their charter really implies).

But the illegal settlements have made it much harder to find a solution.

 

[Badunk]

I am sorry you feel that way.
But just to pick you up on what you have just said.
Because that is very significant.
Someone pro one side who reflect this in their posts, riles other posters.

The title of this thread is:
Israel - Palestine discussion.
The important word being Discussion.
Not that you can only post if you agree with one side.
That is censorship.

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or you just don't get it: I have no problem with your support for Israel (although I disagree with you). The problem is that you say things which are, in my view, provocative or partisan, but when challenged on them you act victimised. Just as you are doing here.

I don't care what you post. I don't want you censored. I'd just like you to have the strengths of your convictions. Because you clearly have them.

Are you sure you don't mean sharing disinformation?

Depends. I'm a history graduate. All sources are welcome and it's up to me to filter through them.

I totally understand the opposite point of view. I'm just giving mine.

 

[Real Name]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

 

[Sky1981]

I will freely admit my knowledge on this issue is far from as extensive as some of the posters on this forum this is clear, i keep seeing people posting about the need for a 2 state solution but isnt that impossible from both sides in reality from what i have read which is again mostly all in recent weeks it suggests that the Arabs/Palestinians have always rejected Israel occupying the land it does and the need to reclaim that land by armed struggle or other means and then you have Israel obviously wanting to defend itself and its land from this and then themselves land grabbing in the west bank in a pretty abhorrent way, do not the actions and desires of both sides lead to believe that a 2 state is not even remotely viable from either side?

It's not viable because the 2 parties don't want that.

1. Israel don't want to give back those lands
2. Palestine don't want to be admitting to cede or whatever their motives is I honestly don't know.

There are practical and workable solutions if they so wishes.

1. DMZ zone manned by UN peacekeepers for a certain amount of years until situation cool down, say 25 years
2. Cooperation in weeding out terrorist and non government action either by Hamas or by Settlers or whoever. Fair and judicial
3. At least open up peace talks and pretend to try solution.

It's easy enough for anyone to lit a keg, I have no doubt that there are times when Hamas and Mossad indirectly "slept" with each other and play the tango

Hamas is the best lightning Rod to Israel, like it or hate it.

 

[Raoul]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

I think what you're saying is both sides have different ROE. One side deliberately and pre-mediatively targets civilians for maximum political effect (as displayed 12 days ago), whereas the other targets infrastructure and militants where civilians reside, which means the latter end up dying, or getting injured/displaced. Although obviously different, the net result winds up being comparable. The Israelis could learn a thing or two from the Ukrainians in this regard, who are going out of their way to deliberately avoid civilian casualties (admittedly their own citizens) and only target Russian military and occasional infrastructure (Kerch bridge and a few targets inside Russia).

 

[Raoul]

Tweet

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Hmmmmmmm.

This was never going to happen given Hamas will never accept the actual existence of Israel, as suggested by one of its founders only a couple of years ago.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.

Sounds like a quote from 1937.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

This is true if you believe the world started on October 1st.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

This was never going to happen given Hamas will never accept the actual existence of Israel, as suggested by one of its founders only a couple of years ago.

Just asking but is it;

"We won't accept Israel in its current, apartheid incarnation and want to destroy it so Jews and Muslims can live together"

Or is it more

"We want to blow up all Jewish people.in the region and turn Israel back into a Muslim country without any Jews?"

 

[jackal&hyde]

I usually like to say "I think" and avoid the "I believe" because I think, reason has to be more important then feelings.

This might be the last time I post on this thread because I find reason plays no role here, only emotion and identity politics, only the bias confirmation of thought; going so far as treating the words of a criminal and terrorist group as worthy or more, the same as those of democracies.

Any and all half reasonable people that at least want to pretend like they care about truth, or what is most likely, would not go full force in to believing a regime that is known for two things: suppressing democracy in the land (a nice way of saying killing your own population) and dehumanizing the enemy. In the last few days we have another great quality for the criminal and terrorist HAMAS, they will kill their own people (by error) and instead of saying sorry, they will use that as a stick to create more fake news and more emotion in the hearts of those that are easily manipulated and have more feelings then they have the ability to count.

I will post what I think is the best "just f-ing think" type of video that I've seen.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Looks like Israel hired Theresa May's 'Go home' vans to put its propaganda war into overdrive in London.

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Using hostages children to further your message and drum up sympathy is pretty bleak

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Let me explain the reason for my post.

I grew up as a German in Luxemburg, Belgium, Netherlands and France in the 70's. In every country I was frequently confronted with the our past. Whatever I replied, I got to hear Germans are guilty because we supported an evil regime. Without the huge support within the population Hitler and all the atrocities weren't possible.
In a nutshell, WW2 and all the suffering was the fault of the German population.

Wrong or right, this time shaped me and therefore if you willingly support terrorists you aren't innocent.

Thanks for sharing. I personally thought to myself that you were overcompensating as a German due to historical context. Weird to see my assumptions confirmed tbh.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

The effect of social media and how the media in the west can shape the average (in some cases below average as it seems in this thread) thinker's thoughts with selective journalism.
Add that to the casual racism (from a minority) against arabs and muslims in general and you're good to go.

For example:

Israel bombed a JOURNALIST team in Lebanon a week ago. The entire goddamn team had "PRESS" written on their shields.
A friend of a friend (JOURNALIST at Reuters) was blown into 2, head and torso in one part and legs in another).
Another female journalist has lost 1 leg and is set to lose the other.

How was the news greeted? "Oh a young journalist has lost his life, shame. Anyway, getting to the topic at hand...".

Brutal

 

[Wibble]

Without having time to catch-up on all the posts here, is the consensus now that the hospital blast is likely to have been accidental friendly-fire from a Palestinian rocket?

Islamic Jihad most likely. Never 100% certain of course.

 

[nimic]

So they aren't that innocent.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes.

Absolutely wild way to talk about innocent people being bombed to death.

 

[Smores]

I usually like to say "I think" and avoid the "I believe" because I think, reason has to be more important then feelings.

This might be the last time I post on this thread because I find reason plays no role here, only emotion and identity politics, only the bias confirmation of thought; going so far as treating the words of a criminal and terrorist group as worthy or more, the same as those of democracies.

Any and all half reasonable people that at least want to pretend like they care about truth, or what is most likely, would not go full force in to believing a regime that is known for two things: suppressing democracy in the land (a nice way of saying killing your own population) and dehumanizing the enemy. In the last few days we have another great quality for the criminal and terrorist HAMAS, they will kill their own people (by error) and instead of saying sorry, they will use that as a stick to create more fake news and more emotion in the hearts of those that are easily manipulated and have more feelings then they have the ability to count.

I will post what I think is the best "just f-ing think" type of video that I've seen.

This thread would go a lot smoother if people stopped being so self-important. Are you lot unable to just give your thoughts without this self congratulation and judgment of others?

You can pretend your opinion is more accurate because you're just so damn reasoned and logical but its bollocks.

It's very frustrating seeing people act this way over a subject where innocent children are dying because of the actions of both sides. Grow up.

 

[Raoul]

Just asking but is it;

"We won't accept Israel in its current, apartheid incarnation and want to destroy it so Jews and Muslims can live together"

Or is it more

"We want to blow up all Jewish people.in the region and turn Israel back into a Muslim country without any Jews?"

Killing Jews is literally in the Hamas charter.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".

It would therefore not be an exaggeration to say that Hamas exists to kill Israelis, because it is literally written into their founding document, the tenets of which were acted out once again as recently as 7 Oct.

 

[HTG]

I usually like to say "I think" and avoid the "I believe" because I think, reason has to be more important then feelings.

This might be the last time I post on this thread because I find reason plays no role here, only emotion and identity politics, only the bias confirmation of thought; going so far as treating the words of a criminal and terrorist group as worthy or more, the same as those of democracies.

Any and all half reasonable people that at least want to pretend like they care about truth, or what is most likely, would not go full force in to believing a regime that is known for two things: suppressing democracy in the land (a nice way of saying killing your own population) and dehumanizing the enemy. In the last few days we have another great quality for the criminal and terrorist HAMAS, they will kill their own people (by error) and instead of saying sorry, they will use that as a stick to create more fake news and more emotion in the hearts of those that are easily manipulated and have more feelings then they have the ability to count.

I will post what I think is the best "just f-ing think" type of video that I've seen.

I tend to agree with you. This thread isn’t offering information anymore, it’s just a virtual battlefield for some people. The story of the hospital was quite shocking to me. The amount of people who wrote posts completely convinced to be on the right side, abandoning all care in the process, was problematic, to say the least. Even more so when you see that the very same people have learned absolutely nothing from it and just continue the exact same way.
The most annoying thing, however, is how wilfully people misrepresent the opinions of others in the worst possible way. There’s no more margin of error. No benefit of the doubt. Just waiting for any snippet of a post that could be interpreted in a bad way, so you can call someone something horrible.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Killing Jews is literally in the Hamas charter.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

It would therefore not be an exaggeration to say that Hamas exists to kill Israelis, because it is literally written into their founding document, the tenets of which were acted out once again as recently as 7 Oct.

Thanks, was just checking.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Absolutely wild way to talk about innocent people being bombed to death. Insane.

Sounds dangerously close to Osama's "Letter to Americans"

Spoiler: Excerpt

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

This thread would go a lot smoother if people stopped being so self-important. Are you lot unable to just give your thoughts without this self congratulation and judgment of others?

You can pretend your opinion is more accurate because you're just so damn reasoned and logical but its bollocks.

It's very frustrating seeing people act this way over a subject where innocent children are dying because of the actions of both sides. Grow up.

Yeah, never understood some people's need to use large paragraphs to announce their departure from a discussion. And it gets even worse when the reason is because the general consensus doesn't align with their own view.

 

[Buster15]

Have you been threadbanned?

Not to my knowledge. But would not be surprised.

 

[jackal&hyde]

on.

I tend to agree with you. This thread isn’t offering information anymore, it’s just a virtual battlefield for some people. The story of the hospital was quite shocking to me. The amount of people who wrote posts completely convinced to be on the right side, abandoning all care in the process, was problematic, to say the least. Even more so when you see that the very same people have learned absolutely nothing from it and just continue the exact same way.
The most annoying thing, however, is how wilfully people misrepresent the opinions of others in the worst possible way. There’s no more margin of error. No benefit of the doubt. Just waiting for any snippet of a post that could be interpreted in a bad way, so you can call someone something horrible.

I will begin by saying that I am a "leftinst" and the left is IMO the rational point to take in terms of politics, in terms of making the most good for most people.

I think what we are seeing, is the vocal left being taken over by the "it feels" people; by the "do not offend" people. While the original point of the left was reason and in so being, most of the scientist of the World are/ were left, the politics are being highjacked by children.

As a leftist this would not matter except that it does, it does because the more irrational the left is, the more people will and are falling to the extreme right.

Can you even call the right stupid or extreme when the left is in bed with criminal organizations? The left that I know and love are those that check fake news, those that are pro science. I see them not in the last 10 days.

 

[Superden]

I think what you're saying is both sides have different ROE. One side deliberately and pre-mediatively targets civilians for maximum political effect (as displayed 12 days ago), whereas the other targets infrastructure and militants where civilians reside, which means the latter end up dying, or getting injured/displaced. Although obviously different, the net result winds up being comparable. The Israelis could learn a thing or two from the Ukrainians in this regard, who are going out of their way to deliberately avoid civilian casualties (admittedly their own citizens) and only target Russian military and occasional infrastructure (Kerch bridge and a few targets inside Russia).

I think this is a very biased and romanticised take, considering there's plenty of occasions when IDF have attacked and killed civilians when there was no present threat or danger. Just the recent killing of Reuters journalists on the lebanon border as an example. Putting aside all the carnage in Gaza on healthcare units, mosques, churches, shelters, schools etc.
IDF soldiers also get carte blanche when it comes to committing crimes, with their unjustified use of extreme violence against Palestinians. Palestinian children throwing stones are treated far more harshly by the Israeli justice system than IDF soldiers shooting unarmed civilians..