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gaffs

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I don't think anyone here is disputing that the last month was a major inflection point that will ultimately lead to the demise of the attackers.
I believe that it will lead to a new generation of terrorists and an even greater threat to Israel.

12,000+ Palestinians killed so far. The vast majority innocents and half children. It will only lead to further hatred towards Israel for generations to come.
 

Il Prete Rosso

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The appropriate response would be to condemn the Hamas attacks and acknowledge that the overall existence and practices of Hamas in Gaza has brought all of the death and destruction we are seeing in Gaza today. The Israelis should likewise also be condemned for their "shoot first, think later" approach of bombing the hell out of Gaza, as opposed to a traditional counterinsurgency. They should also be condemned for the appalling behavior of settlers killing and intimidating Palestinians in the WB. Both sides should be apportioned responsibility for their actions, which is a good starting point from which to proceed.
Nothing happens in a vacuum and there's always context to every bad situation. You can't say "it's appropriate to condemn the Hamas attacks" after the 7th of October but NOT ask about Israel's brutality and occupation. Life is life and it seems like over the past few weeks that one group of people deserves empathy AFTER another group gets it. The dissonance has been astounding on the internet and in the media and it's why trust has been difficult to come by on either side.
 

Halftrack

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I'm still curious whether you consider cutting water and power, blowing up water reserve tanks, bakeries, fishing boats and ambulances, and bombing hospitals, aid stations and refugee camps, while denying critical aid, self-defense.
 
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A pause? Great.
It's just the logical first step. It makes it easier to agree to peace or permanent ceasefire later, and is much more difficult to reject. It also hopefully makes it slightly harder to continue fighting with the same intensity after the pause if both parties get something they want from it, like civilians back.

Agree with your point though, but at this stage I suppose it's mostly about identifying what can actually be done, however small, and use it to build on.
 

Raoul

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Lots of people have been getting sacked in the US for pro Palestinian views or for taking down posters. There's a twitter account that's been posting details on lots of people everyday, asking for people to call their employers and get them sacked. And it's been working. Also the NYT, guardian etc have been waking people for having pro Palestinian views. https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites

A mask is actually a big help - notice how they only post people without a mask. With a mask on its far harder to match someone to their online profile. Not a foolproof protection but much better than being unmasked.
I realize that, however in this case, its easy to identify any of them because there are a small number of staffers in Congress, and most of these guys probably work for Democrats so that automatically narrows things down even further. If a site like StopAntiSemitism or anyone else wanted to identify them they could, in which case why even bother with the masks.
 

groovyalbert

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Lots of people have been getting sacked in the US for pro Palestinian views or for taking down posters. There's a twitter account that's been posting details on lots of people everyday, asking for people to call their employers and get them sacked. And it's been working. Also the NYT, guardian etc have been waking people for having pro Palestinian views. https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites

A mask is actually a big help - notice how they only post people without a mask. With a mask on its far harder to match someone to their online profile. Not a foolproof protection but much better than being unmasked.
They're not getting sacked for their Pro-Palestinian views. They're getting sacked when they end up diving into a deluge of antisemitism and hate-speech. And ripping down posters of missing people does not make you Pro-Palestinian. That points at something far darker.
 

Bebe

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Nothing happens in a vacuum and there's always context to every bad situation. You can't say "it's appropriate to condemn the Hamas attacks" after the 7th of October but NOT ask about Israel's brutality and occupation. Life is life and it seems like over the past few weeks that one group of people deserves empathy AFTER another group gets it. The dissonance has been astounding on the internet and in the media and it's why trust has been difficult to come by on either side.
While I share your view generally, the poster you're responding to said that Israel should be condemned for its settler violence and expulsion of Palestinians in the West Bank. He has not ignored Israel's brutal occupation.

That being said, if blame is apportioned in a fair and reasonable manner to both sides for crimes committed, Israel would be unequivocally condemned as a terrorist state and would have to give up vast swathes of territory acquired since 1967, move thousands of settlers back to territory that is legally Israeli, forfeit all nuclear armament about a thousand other things that have a snowball's chance in hell of happening. Anything approaching fairness would be a disaster for Israel.
 

Bebe

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They're not getting sacked for their Pro-Palestinian views. They're getting sacked when they end up diving into a deluge of antisemitism and hate-speech. And ripping down posters of missing people does not make you Pro-Palestinian. That points at something far darker.
No, they're getting sacked for saying anything other than "Israel is justified in blowing up Palestinians", which is the mandated view in most of the western world.
 

Halftrack

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They're not getting sacked for their Pro-Palestinian views. They're getting sacked when they end up diving into a deluge of antisemitism and hate-speech. And ripping down posters of missing people does not make you Pro-Palestinian. That points at something far darker.
Why are you lying?
 

groovyalbert

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No, they're getting sacked for saying anything other than "Israel is justified in blowing up Palestinians", which is the mandated view in most of the western world.
Nope, no they're not.

Otherwise millions of people would be losing their jobs. You may not be able to distinguish between their hatred and Pro-Palestinian messages, but there is a difference.
 

nickm

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I'm still curious whether you consider cutting water and power, blowing up water reserve tanks, bakeries, fishing boats and ambulances, and bombing hospitals, aid stations and refugee camps, while denying critical aid, self-defense.
Under certain circumstances, yes, it is. And international law can allow for it. Whether these circumstances apply in all cases at the moment, I don't know - they probably don't. But I will accept they do in some
 

Bebe

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Nope, no they're not.

Otherwise millions of people would be losing their jobs. You may not be able to distinguish between their hatred and Pro-Palestinian messages, but there is a difference.
Plenty of people are losing their jobs. I won't say millions, as I have no basis for numbers.

If your first response is a personal attack, I don't feel there's any point in continuing a discussion. Carry on.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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And ripping down posters of missing people does not make you Pro-Palestinian. That points at something far darker.
A display of artwork by Palestinian children at Chelsea and Westminster hospital in London has been removed after a complaint by a pro-Israel organisation, which said it made Jewish patients feel “vulnerable, harassed and victimised”.
 

groovyalbert

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And who got sacked? That has nothing to do what this is about.

Those who are being sacked are not being sacked for legitimate protests. They're getting sacked when hate-speech and antisemitism is evidenced.
 

groovyalbert

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Plenty of people are losing their jobs. I won't say millions, as I have no basis for numbers.

If your first response is a personal attack, I don't feel there's any point in continuing a discussion. Carry on.
Are you honestly saying that none of the videos on the stop antisemitism twitter feed display antisemitism? And that companies - many of whom are public facing and services - aren't right to act?
 

nickm

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That hospital artwork was removed last February, it's not connected to current events. Background here.
 

Halftrack

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You are. You know as well as anyone thay people have been sacked for making pro-Palestinian posts and comments, but that doesn't suit your narrative, so you have to make it out they were doing hate speech.

Was Paul Bristow doing hate speech when calling for a ceasefire? Was David Velasco's open letter antisemitic? Was Jewish man Micharl Eisen doing antisemitism when retweeting an Onion article? Was Maha Dakhil doing nazism when she called what Israel is doing a genocide?

And that's just a handful of examples from the first page of a Google-search. So kinsly feck all the way off with the patently false claim that no one is being fired for supporting Palestine, and even further off with the ridiculous claim that they're doing hate speech.
 

The Corinthian

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I'm referencing the instances of antisemitism on a specific twitter feed. Which, in the cases where people have lost their jobs, appear pretty fecking antisemitic.
What's antisemitic about pulling down posters on public property? I went on the twitter feed and 3 of the top 5 tweets are about posters being pulled down.
 

Halftrack

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Under certain circumstances, yes, it is. And international law can allow for it. Whether these circumstances apply in all cases at the moment, I don't know - they probably don't. But I will accept they do in some
That's not an answer, that's just you waffling to avoid giving one.
 

groovyalbert

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What's antisemitic about pulling down posters on public property? I went on the twitter feed and 3 of the top 5 tweets are about posters being pulled down.
Referencing more the posts where people have gone on to lose their jobs. I can't see a single example there where the person losing their job hasn't said or done something blatantly antisemitic.

Re the poster ripping down - perhaps not antisemitic, more a sign of utter stupidity/inability to acknowledge any degree of suffering that has taken part on the other side. It's dehumanising.

A more intelligent thing to do would to be to start a counter poster campaign documenting the detained Palestinians in Israel.
 

The Corinthian

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Referencing more the posts where people have gone on to lose their jobs. I can't see a single example there where the person losing their job hasn't said or done something blatantly antisemitic.

Re the poster ripping down - perhaps not antisemitic, more a sign of utter stupidity/inability to acknowledge any degree of suffering that has taken part on the other side. It's dehumanising.

A more intelligent thing to do would to be to start a counter poster campaign documenting the detained Palestinians in Israel.
I'm interested to hear which ones are antisemitic in your opinion. Here's what the Harvard students said as an example:

"We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence."

I could go through them one by one, but let's start here.

Edit: That twitter link you showed is basically a doxxing handle - if they're doxxing people for pulling down posters than that's pretty pathetic, and really takes away from real cases of antisemitism.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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I would be more offended about the "ripping posters of missing people" if I believed that the people recording these videos care about the fate of the hostages. They do not give a shit.
 

groovyalbert

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I'm interested to hear which ones are antisemitic in your opinion. Here's what the Harvard students said as an example:

"We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence."

I could go through them one by one, but let's start here.

Edit: That twitter link you showed is basically a doxxing handle - if they're doxxing people for pulling down posters than that's pretty pathetic, and really takes away from real cases of antisemitism.
Well, the first evidence on the feed is of a doctor in London posting "Die Juden sind unsere Unglück" - the Jews are our misfortune - on Facebook. On Oct 10th. 3 days after the Oct 7 attack. He's apparently lost his job. I'd argue that justified and incredibly antisemitic.

The next one on the feed documents a former Apple employee equating Zionism to Nazism. Given the historical context, yeah - I'd be open to interpret that as being antisemitic.

And the next one where someone apparently was fired from their job was an instant from having taken down a poster, but whilst the cousin of the person kidnapped films and asks what she's doing. It's a pretty hateful move and demonstrates zero value for the lives in question.

And to the quote you mentioned, I think that to impart all blame on Israel for what is going on in this particular instance is simplistic and inaccurate, although not in itself antisemitic.