And you should... I mean that train (if it ever existed - we do not know) has passed long time ago.....
Do you really think Israel is trying to reach a mutual agreement with the Palestinians? I really question that. ....
And you should... I mean that train (if it ever existed - we do not know) has passed long time ago.....
Do you really think Israel is trying to reach a mutual agreement with the Palestinians? I really question that. ....
There are more Palestinians alive today than any other time in history.That's not what it is at all. It is the gradual erasure of one group of people off the map. The infinitely more powerful, oppressive party is doing whatever it wants and the weaker party resorts to desperate acts. I understand why you don't fancy taking on the analogy though.
I would guess that the poster means terrority rather than population.There are more Palestinians alive today than any other time in history.
Hardly erasure.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population
How dare these virulently anti-Semitic *checks notes* ex-Israeli ambassadors to South Africa single out the world's only Jewish state for censure... No, no, no, no, no. This is simply unacceptable.
Some more detail on what was said.
Terrible people. And they probably take the knee as well. Dreadful.How dare these virulently anti-Semitic *checks notes* ex-Israeli ambassadors to South Africa single out the world's only Jewish state for censure... No, no, no, no, no. This is simply unacceptable.
Why would Edward Said have suffered from “European cultural guilt”? He referenced the status of minorities in the Middle East, not WW2 Europe. When Israeli Jews consider their potential fate as a minority against an Arab Muslim majority, they for sure may have WW2 in mind; however more pertinently they have the examples of the fate of numerous ethnic and religious minorities in the modern Middle East and further afield in mind, and particularly the record of regimes and movements who have embraced Arab nationalism and/or Islamism as their guiding principles. From Iran to the Sudan; from the massacre of the Iraqi Assyrians in 1933 to the attacks on Yezidis in 2014; that record is absolutely abysmal, and includes episodes where Jews themselves have been targeted. If you’re making the argument for a pluralistic shared state to Israeli Jews, the burden is on you to explain why the Palestinians will prove exceptional in this regard. Or why a state which genuinely attempts to achieve a representative balance between the two groups will prove more successful than the glowing examples of post-1990 Lebanon and post-2003 Iraq. Dismissing these concerns and harking back to a pre-modern history where Jews got by largely by keeping their heads down and acknowledging their subjugation at the hands of others just isn’t going to cut it with the people you’re trying to convince.The Corinthian said:On your secondary point - it's again this mindset, and I suppose we can call it a European cultural guilt, that whatever happened in WW2 to Jews will automatically happen to them in the Middle East. It's not the case and never has been. Applying that mindset to the Arab demographic, who had nothing to do with what happened to Jews in WW2, is unfair. Will everything be rosy from day 1? I doubt it, but I don't think that goal (peaceful coexistence) is unachievable either. If you remove a Zionist mindset from society, then why wouldn't it be achievable? This narrative that has been built over the last 70 years of Jews fearing Arab aggression is directly linked and because of the Zionist agenda and it's creation of Israel. Jews were living in Palestine pre-1948, Jews had been living there (relatively peacefully) for a long time! Why has that history suddenly fallen by the wayside?
Arab nationalism and Islamism are broad trends which came into existence and appealed across the Middle East and beyond independently of Israel and Zionism, and there’s no reason based on the history or current politics of the wider region to believe that the Palestinians would abandon them once Zionism is out of the picture. Hamas for example was founded as the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, and it traces its lineage back to the founding of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the late 1920s. In this it shares a lineage and world view with several other regional movements, though its rise was of course facilitated in part by Israeli policies. The same applies to Fatah in terms of Arab nationalism. It is these broader lineages and ideologies which go a long way to explaining why none of the Palestinian factions have as yet been able to come up with a vision for Palestine as inclusive as the ANC’s great Freedom Charter. They may evolve in that direction in the future, but right now hard evidence is lacking.The Corinthian said:How much of this has risen due to the issues with the creation of Israel and the way in which it was done? Arab nationalism was emboldened by the way Israel was created. Hamas was created due to the Israel working with the PLO. My point is, all of these issues we've seen aren't appearing in a vacuum. There's a link and a cause. Hamas and the PLO only exist because Israel was created in a way that was grossly unfair to the people already there. Genuine coexistence is an achievable goal, but there needs to be some 'rightings' of the wrongs in the past.
Christ, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem and Yesh Din are now "extremist factions"A dispute over land would be the appropriate term to use in negotiations, because that's exactly what's at the fundamental heart of the conflict. Terms like terrorist, apartheid, and similar words play well among extremist factions on both sides seeking to create moral leverage that their side is the correct one, but are generally not helpful (and frankly pointless) among people seeking to come to a mutual agreement.
You are not misunderstanding. That was his point.I'm getting progressively more confused by your point here.
Your point seems to have be that it is possible to ethnically cleanse a population without a violence response from the group being cleansed. Or am I misunderstanding?
I think you seem to be confusing ethnic cleansing with genocide. It's a common error. There is no doubt that large areas of Palestine have been cleansed of Arabs. Those Arabs were either expelled from Israel, or they have been concentrated into tiny ghettos/bantustans.There are more Palestinians alive today than any other time in history.
And we're not including Jordanians or Israeli Arabs who may self-indentify as such.
Hardly 'erasure'.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population
But who expelled them?I think you seem to be confusing ethnic cleansing with genocide. It's a common error. There is no doubt that large areas of Palestine have been cleansed of Arabs. Those Arabs were either expelled from Israel, or they have been concentrated into tiny ghettos/bantustans.
Israel doesn't want carefully drawn borders, it's always planned to take over the territory. Ben Gurion quotes say as much.Personally i dont think its pure gamemanship. There have been several wars to anhililate Israel which all have failed and made things much worse for the Palestinians. Knowing that the israelis arent going to bugger off its far more expedient to insist that Israel has a right to exist with carefully drawn borders and that its not just prelude to more war if that terrority is conceded. This is all with the fact in mind that hamas has a vastly inferior bargaining position.
I think at this point you're probably right.Israel doesn't want carefully drawn borders, it's always planned to take over the territory. Ben Gurion quotes say as much.
Well, in Abbas' particular case, he is saying they fled in fear for their lives (assuming that the approaching IDF would massacre them) and Israel of course prevented them from returning so I'm going to be controversial here and deduce that these 2 facts amount to expulsion. (But of course, one man's experience probably doesn't provide the whole picture. There is a quote by Benny Morris to the effect that, in general and in most cases throughout the war, Arabs were expelled or fled approaching soldiers)But who expelled them?
Yeah... the solution Israel is aiming for is a one state, with no citizenship rights for the palestinians. At this moment it seems like Israel is happy to put them in their camps and to guard all movements heavily.I think at this point you're probably right.
This is not an after thought.Yeah... the solution Israel is aiming for is a one state, with no citizenship rights for the palestinians. At this moment it seems like Israel is happy to put them in their camps and to guard all movements heavily.
There will be a push to extend the settlements as far as possible - and they are probably auming for the whole of Jerusalem. Long term they might even go for al aqsa.
How can you spend your entire time in this thread defending Israel and then write this? Do you hate Arabs as well or what's going on?Yeah... the solution Israel is aiming for is a one state, with no citizenship rights for the palestinians. At this moment it seems like Israel is happy to put them in their camps and to guard all movements heavily.
There will be a push to extend the settlements as far as possible - and they are probably auming for the whole of Jerusalem. Long term they might even go for al aqsa.
Perhaps the incredibly comprehensive and well researched information posted in this thread have changed his views?How can you spend your entire time in this thread defending Israel and then write this? Do you hate Arabs as well or what's going on?
I hope so because to me it looks like he's happy with what Israel are doing.Perhaps the incredibly comprehensive and well researched information posted in this thread have changed his views?
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Yeah, it's an about-face but surely that's the point of debate. Shouldn't be criticised for it.Perhaps the incredibly comprehensive and well researched information posted in this thread have changed his views?
Ah, I thought they were free via a Twitter link. I had no issues accessing.Paywalled unfortunately
It must be geographically paywalled as a selling point for areas with heavy Jewish populations (like the US).Ah, I thought they were free via a Twitter link. I had no issues accessing.
https://forward.com/news/470948/naftali-bennett-israels-next-pm-profile/It must be geographically paywalled as a selling point for areas with heavy Jewish populations (like the US).
Thanks. Pretty good read. He comes off seeming more like Olmert and Barak than Shamir, Sharon, or Bibi.
Funny how 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab though. Perhaps they didn't get the Arab Legions's orders to leave.Well, in Abbas' particular case, he is saying they fled in fear for their lives (assuming that the approaching IDF would massacre them) and Israel of course prevented them from returning so I'm going to be controversial here and deduce that these 2 facts amount to expulsion. (But of course, one man's experience probably doesn't provide the whole picture. There is a quote by Benny Morris to the effect that, in general and in most cases throughout the war, Arabs were expelled or fled approaching soldiers)
He won't last five minutes. He knows that come next election he's finished given his support base has abandoned him, as he did them. So this is only option left to remain in politics.Thanks. Pretty good read. He comes off seeming more like Olmert and Barak than Shamir, Sharon, or Bibi.
I think they would have liked to take Al Aqsa, more openly because they kind of have in reality, but know it's not in their best interests to. Certainly for the foreseeable future.Yeah... the solution Israel is aiming for is a one state, with no citizenship rights for the palestinians. At this moment it seems like Israel is happy to put them in their camps and to guard all movements heavily.
There will be a push to extend the settlements as far as possible - and they are probably auming for the whole of Jerusalem. Long term they might even go for al aqsa.
Here are the first few pages from the conclusion of Morris’ Revisited:There is a quote by Benny Morris to the effect that, in general and in most cases throughout the war, Arabs were expelled or fled approaching soldiers
Thanks. Very interesting.Here are the first few pages from the conclusion of Morris’ Revisited:
Few got any such orders, since when you read the actual history of the conflict, such orders did not exist on anything like the scale that you imply.Funny how 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab though. Perhaps they didn't get the Arab Legions's orders to leave.
More who did...
Well, we can argue numbers all we like. The elephant in the room was that this was down to Arab refusal to leave Israel be.Few got any such orders, since when you read the actual history of the conflict, such orders did not exist on anything like the scale that you imply.
Again, according to Benny Morris, he found no evidence of blanket or widespread orders to the Arab population to leave. As early as the 1960s, Ernest Childers and another fellow (name escapes me) reviewed all radio transcripts from the time and not only found no blanket orders to leave by radio, but that there were in fact orders to stay put.
Morris also found that, overwhelmingly, the causes of abandonment were:
Military assault on settlement (215 occurrences)
Influence of nearby town’s fall (59 occurrences)
Expulsion by Jewish forces (53 occurrences)
Fear of being caught up in fighting (48 occurrences)
Whispering campaigns (15 occurrences)
Abandonment on Arab orders (6 occurrences)
Unknown (44)
If I'm reading correctly, I believe Bennett is set for only two years as PM, after which (as per their agreement) Lapid takes over for two years.He won't last five minutes. He knows that come next election he's finished given his support base has abandoned him, as he did them. So this is only option left to remain in politics.
No matter what you think of Netanyahu - he got 59 seats, and Bennett ended up with 6.
Thats what I believe.If I'm reading correctly, I believe Bennett is set for only two years as PM, after which (as per their agreement) Lapid takes over for two years.
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