Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Twisted_Woody]

I hear that photos of beheaded Israeli officers and little kids filmed inside cages with laughter by Hamas men in the background are doing the rounds on TikTok and Facebook.
Maybe Gaza will get flattened after all... this is a humiliation never seen before here.

Speaking from what I'm currently seeing and feeling around me, the Israeli public is utterly, utterly deflated, and the consensus is that "we're not doing anything at all".

My best friend is over there, in one of the elite units of the IDF. could easily been him beheaded. might happen to him, who knows.

logically, thinking about it with sense, I really really get the sentiment that most of you seem to hold. The oppression and occupation are batshit crazy, and Israel should have seen it coming / shouldn't be surprised it has finally happened to them.

killings of Palestinians indeed have been normalized (is that the right term?) throughout the years.

I can tell you firsthand that when there's yet another small, tiny mention of it in the news I, and many others, would be like "oh ffs, not again", but then you move on. especially if you live far away from confrontation zones. It's just something that happens since you were born. You hope that nobody you personally know will be affected by the 'conflict'.

I'm not even talking about those who are happy when Palestinians die, or refuse to use the term (Palestinian) because "there's no such nation/folk". These types of people used to never be in the Parliament or have a tiny representation in it. Now they run the government.


so this is me speaking as logically as I can.

But on an emotional level I'm so angry, so helpless. I'm mad at myself for keep being active in this thread. A part of me wants to hate most of you for your stances even though I bet you're good people, and I would hold the same views had I been a European.

I think the crux of it all is that Hammas, finally, has managed to make the average Israeli citizen feel what the people in Gaza/West Bank feel daily. The sheer helplessness. The uncontrollable anger that you're not sure who to direct it at. The fear of being slaughtered later during the week.

They obviously have it much much worse, they live in a cage. but they made us, me at least, taste the essence of their existence.

It's unbelievable. nothing can prepare you for such feelings.

I avoid participating in this thread for a number of reasons but I wanted to make an exception for your post. Very powerfully written, nuanced, representative of multiple viewpoints - kudos to you for keeping a clear head to articulate such thoughts at such a difficult time. Maybe there is hope for a better future for everyone in your region of the world.

Stay safe.

 

[owlo]

But again, what is the purpose? Are the USA really going to start an actual naval bombardment or Southern Lebanon, even if they do start launching missiles?

Likely the easiest way to get ancillary assets into theater without causing hysteria, a support asset as opposed to an offensive asset.

 

[nimic]

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We can talk about tensions and hopelessness and apartheid all we want (and we should talk a lot about those things), but a lot of this is nothing more than one big terrorist attack.

We should also talk about the state-terror reaction that has already lead to dozens of killed children and will lead to many more.

 

[calodo2003]

We can talk about tensions and hopelessness and apartheid all we want (and we should talk a lot about those things), but a lot of this is nothing more than one big terrorist attack.

We should also talk about the state-terror reaction that has already lead to dozens of killed children and will lead to many more.

Yep.

 

[Raoul]

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Now being reported as "at least 260".

 

[africanspur]

agh, was he israeli with duel nationality?

Doubt it. Any Jewish person can go to Israel and set up a life there if they wish. There are organisations which pay for young Jews from around the world to go and spend summers there for instance at least, go to camp etc etc. Some people do this, join the IDF for a couple of years and then go back to their normal lives in the West.

I know a couple of British Jews who went to camp in Israel when they turned 18, then joined the IDF, got involved in subjecting a people they have literally no contact with generally as part of their daily life, came back essentially extreme and slotted right into some boring office jobs like accounting etc. Surreal.

So yeah, bit strange to me that he in particular is being referenced to as 'British man', as if he wasn't a literal combatant in a war zone.

 

[africanspur]

I hear that photos of beheaded Israeli officers and little kids filmed inside cages with laughter by Hamas men in the background are doing the rounds on TikTok and Facebook.
Maybe Gaza will get flattened after all... this is a humiliation never seen before here.

Speaking from what I'm currently seeing and feeling around me, the Israeli public is utterly, utterly deflated, and the consensus is that "we're not doing anything at all".

My best friend is over there, in one of the elite units of the IDF. could easily been him beheaded. might happen to him, who knows.

logically, thinking about it with sense, I really really get the sentiment that most of you seem to hold. The oppression and occupation are batshit crazy, and Israel should have seen it coming / shouldn't be surprised it has finally happened to them.

killings of Palestinians indeed have been normalized (is that the right term?) throughout the years.

I can tell you firsthand that when there's yet another small, tiny mention of it in the news I, and many others, would be like "oh ffs, not again", but then you move on. especially if you live far away from confrontation zones. It's just something that happens since you were born. You hope that nobody you personally know will be affected by the 'conflict'.

I'm not even talking about those who are happy when Palestinians die, or refuse to use the term (Palestinian) because "there's no such nation/folk". These types of people used to never be in the Parliament or have a tiny representation in it. Now they run the government.


so this is me speaking as logically as I can.

But on an emotional level I'm so angry, so helpless. I'm mad at myself for keep being active in this thread. A part of me wants to hate most of you for your stances even though I bet you're good people, and I would hold the same views had I been a European.

I think the crux of it all is that Hammas, finally, has managed to make the average Israeli citizen feel what the people in Gaza/West Bank feel daily. The sheer helplessness. The uncontrollable anger that you're not sure who to direct it at. The fear of being slaughtered later during the week.

They obviously have it much much worse, they live in a cage. but they made us, me at least, taste the essence of their existence.

It's unbelievable. nothing can prepare you for such feelings.

Living it in real life and yet have more understanding than some of the keyboard warriors on here.

As I said earlier, I hope you and your family keep safe.

 

[calodo2003]

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That’s over three times more than the Charlie Hebdo / Bataclan mass murders.

 

[owlo]

We can talk about tensions and hopelessness and apartheid all we want (and we should talk a lot about those things), but a lot of this is nothing more than one big terrorist attack.

We should also talk about the state-terror reaction that has already lead to dozens of killed children and will lead to many more.

Yep.

Strongly disagree in your categorisation of “state-terror reaction.”

This reaction is the entirely expected and logical outcome.

 

[calodo2003]

Strongly disagree in your categorisation of “state-terror reaction.”

This reaction is the entirely expected and logical outcome.

This is simply a terror attack writ large in which the terrorists knew ahead of time what the reaction by Israel would be.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I avoid participating in this thread for a number of reasons but I wanted to make an exception for your post. Very powerfully written, nuanced, representative of multiple viewpoints - kudos to you for keeping a clear head to articulate such thoughts at such a difficult time. Maybe there is hope for a better future for everyone in your region of the world.

Stay safe.

cheers mate, and also @Superden and @SilentWitness for replying earlier.

I'm having panic attacks and have been contemplating suicide if I'm honest,
but I know this side of me from way before the last two days and I'll overcome it.

I shall mention that I have friends and family members with whom I keep in close contact, no need to worry.

Feels nice to be able to write it here.

Caf community really is special.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Gaza is essentially a concentration camp, and there is no chance that Israel will accept giving East Jerusalem. I guess a possible two-state solution on current borders with Jerusalem being part of Israel might be acceptable for Israel but not for Palestinians.

So, I think the plan died with Rabin.

I do not see any chance of this conflict ending soon. Two-state solution is dead, neither Egypt nor Jordan want to do anything with a three-state solution, so Palestinians won’t have a real place of their own. Which in turn is gonna radicalize them even more and create even more jihadist terrorists. Which in turn is gonna make Israeli have even less empathy for them, and the likes of hard right politicians like Netanyahu are gonna become even more mainstream.

I do not think what happened is gonna be repeated soon. Israel is gonna destroy Gaza and make their sponsors pay a high price. I also think Israel will be better prepared for the next round whenever it happens.

I find the idea that the plan died with Rabin to be hugely depressing, and maybe my unwillingness to accept it is because I’m clinging to false hope. I hope not but I can accept that things don’t look good.right now.

 

[nimic]

Strongly disagree in your categorisation of “state-terror reaction.”

This reaction is the entirely expected and logical outcome.

It's entirely expected and it might even be logical, but that doesn't make it not state terror IMO. The vast majority of killed and wounded in Gaza are going to be civilians, like always.

 

[owlo]

This is simply a terror attack writ large in which the terrorists knew ahead of time what the reaction by Israel would be.

Yes.

So we don’t need to discuss the “state-terror reaction that has already lead to dozens of killed children and will lead to many more.”

This is simply the consequence of the terrorists. People in Israels shock will turn to rage; the reaction has barely begun. Its not state terror.

 

[langster]

cheers mate, and also @Superden and @SilentWitness for replying earlier.

I'm having panic attacks and have been contemplating suicide if I'm honest,
but I know this side of me from way before the last two days and I'll overcome it.

I shall mention that I have friends and family members with whom I keep in close contact, no need to worry.

Feels nice to be able to write it here.

Caf community really is special.

I hope you feel better soon. Please always remember there are people to talk to, especially here. Sometimes talking with a complete stranger can be just the remedy you need.I know from personal experience how hard it is to deal with, but nothing is worth taking your life over. I wish you all the best.

 

[owlo]

It's entirely expected and it might even be logical, but that doesn't make it not state terror IMO. The vast majority of killed and wounded in Gaza are going to be civilians, like always.

What is there to discuss? That something shit is happening as a consequence of their actions? We know it’s shit and unfair, it doesn’t need discourse because there’s nothing to be discussed. It’s not like Israel have a choice. And sure, call it state terror if terrifying and terrible actions by a state are terroristic to you.

we can all agree
A) it’s horrible and wrong
b) innocents will lose lives and livelihoods
c) it will be a huge overreaction
d) the consequences are baked in. There is no alternative

 

[MDFC Manager]

I avoid participating in this thread for a number of reasons but I wanted to make an exception for your post. Very powerfully written, nuanced, representative of multiple viewpoints - kudos to you for keeping a clear head to articulate such thoughts at such a difficult time. Maybe there is hope for a better future for everyone in your region of the world.

Stay safe.

100% agreed. @ScholesyTheWise take care mate

 

[nimic]

I hope you feel better soon. Please always remember there are people to talk to, especially here. Sometimes talking with a complete stranger can be just the remedy you need.I know from personal experience how hard it is to deal with, but nothing is worth taking your life over. I wish you all the best.

Very much seconded. Your contributions are making an impact on me at least, @ScholesyTheWise.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Yes.

So we don’t need to discuss the “state-terror reaction that has already lead to dozens of killed children and will lead to many more.”

This is simply the consequence of the terrorists. People in Israels shock will turn to rage; the reaction has barely begun. Its not state terror.

Could you define what constitutes state terror for you? It looks like it to me, but I accept it’s quite a vague term.

 

[owlo]

Could you define what constitutes state terror for you? It looks like it to me, but I accept it’s quite a vague term.

One requirement is that it’s outside conflict. Israel have quite literally declared war.

(state terror is usually underhand tactics aimed at internal subversion or sponsoring others to kill/do dirty stuff for you). Definition varies but there’s loads of articles online I’m sure.

 

[langster]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

 

[calodo2003]

Very much seconded. Your contributions are making an impact on me at least, @ScholesyTheWise.

+1

 

[VorZakone]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

Main focus seems to be Gaza, yeah.

 

[calodo2003]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

There were brief skirmishes in the north with a couple Hezbollah missiles were fired into Israel followed by some counter-battery fire from the IDF.

Not certain about the West Bank.

 

[Revan]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

Hamas does not have any control in the West Bank to organize anything similar.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

Yes, for the time being, there's nothing. There have been some violent protests in East Jerusalem but they've been 'contained' (this is the term we use in Hebrew, I guess you'll get my drift) by police forces.

And in a northern little village next to the (huge) border we share with Lebanon,
there was a heavy suspicion of Hezbollah fighters crossing the border.
fire was shot, and a couple of wounded... turned out it was IDF soldiers mistakenly thought to be enemy forces.

There have already been quite a few instances of... when IDF shoots at its own soldiers, again not sure what the term in English actually is.

 

[The Corinthian]

In fairness, while I disagree with a lot of their viewpoints, I think this is a little unfair.

They're not coming at this from a perspective of what they think is morally right but what may just end up being the best thing for them with regards to their actual day to day living.

I guess the similar recent parallel (obviously not exactly the same) is NK and Armenia/Azerbaijan. Is it fair what's happened there? No. Is it moral? No. Will anyone ultimately do anything about it? No. What did most of the ethnic Armenians end up doing? Ultimately they've left (whether by coercion or not, I don't know enough to say) because they've deemed their lives to be better if they leave, rather than continuing a fight they've likely calculated they cannot win.

Of course, a major difference is that they have a 'homeland' they can go to still etc etc.

One thing @2cents mentioned before which really resonated and I think is true is that the Palestinians (as a collective, obviously there are always different viewpoints) don't see themselves as a few million Palestinians against a few million Israelis, with no out. I think part of it is that they see themselves as a collective, whether as an Arab collective or Muslim, that will eventually come to help in some way, whenever that may be.

Now that may have been true in the past.....but is increasingly not. In fact, its further away than it probably has been at any point since the conflict began. So the ultimate question becomes....what is their out? To a decent and dignified life?

That is a question that I sadly no longer have a viable and realistic answer for.

I appreciate your posts in this thread, and am glad there's someone capable of providing a voice for the Palestinians who is much more articulate and level headed than myself.

I find this notion that the Palestinians should leave a real slap in the face. I've been to the region a few times, and I've met with Palestinians in Jordan who's family had to flee during the Nakba and they have no hope in hell of ever returning. There is no repercussion for Israel. They land grab and annex and build illegal settlements and no one gives a shit. So if the Palestinians leave what difference does it make? They'd rather stay and die fighting. I know I would if I was in their position.

It's truly a hopeless situation if you're Palestinian. Abandoned by the Arab states, abandoned by virtue signalling Western states. They have no one. They don't have an army, they don't have a naval force. What's the point of leaving? Is someone going to hold Israel to account if they do?

I don't think the Armenia/Azerbaijan is analogous to this either. It's not a nice situation, but the people there aren't under military occupation, and they have autonomous rule of that region despite it being in Azerbaijan. And if they were to flee, there is still an Armenia where they can go on the border. There is no Palestine for Gazans to go if they leave Gaza.

 

[owlo]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

Basically. Some minor fracases. General strike in protest of Gaza situation. Some arrests for flag waving. Kid murdered by IDF in East Jerusalem apparently (unconfirmed).

and who knows..

 

[The Corinthian]

Never said I do, but one thing remains certain: the attacks on Ukraine and Israel are the symptoms of something bigger. Any wrong course of actions from the West will embolden the rotten lot on the other side to do even more.

Why are you conflating Ukraine with Israel? Ukraine is a totally separate conflict that has very little bearing on Palestine - Israel other than political spiel from certain heads of state.

 

[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

Why are you conflating Ukraine with Israel? Ukraine is a totally separate conflict that has very little bearing on Palestine - Israel other than political spiel from certain heads of state.

Agreed. I don't find the comparisons meaningful. The context for the 2 conflicts is just far too different.

 

[NicolaSacco]

One requirement is that it’s outside conflict. Israel have quite literally declared war.

(state terror is usually underhand tactics aimed at internal subversion or sponsoring others to kill/do dirty stuff for you). Definition varies but there’s loads of articles online I’m sure.

It seems entirely counterintuitive to me that Israel’s actions could constitute state terror, but because Netanyahu has said ‘this is a war’, that those precise actions are now no longer state terror. We laugh at Putin for calling something a ‘special military operation’ when reality tells us it’s obviously not. And that’s because we base our analysis on Russia’s actions, not it’s leader’s description of its actions. I can’t see the difference.

 

[2cents]

if they were to flee

Just to let you know as you may not have heard, almost all of them (100,000+) have fled to Armenia.

 

[The Corinthian]

What is there to discuss? That something shit is happening as a consequence of their actions? We know it’s shit and unfair, it doesn’t need discourse because there’s nothing to be discussed. It’s not like Israel have a choice. And sure, call it state terror if terrifying and terrible actions by a state are terroristic to you.

we can all agree
A) it’s horrible and wrong
b) innocents will lose lives and livelihoods
c) it will be a huge overreaction
d) the consequences are baked in. There is no alternative

Is this a serious post? Do you think the conflict started yesterday?

You can't keep a people oppressed, subjugated and strip them of all human and civil rights and expect them to take it lying down. Israel has killed over 200 Palestinians in 2023 before yesterday's events. Why is it not 'something shit is happening as a consequence of Israel's actions'?

 

[Spark]

Am I right in thinking that so far all the attacks came from Gaza and that Israel is currently focusing entirely on the Gaza Strip in retaliation?

So far nothing coming from the West Bank and no Israeli bombing there? And how long will that last?

Yeah, Gaza is Hamas run and operated and West Bank is the (internationally recognised) Palestinian Authority.

Really interesting article in the Times of Israel detailing how Netanyahu’s policy of appeasing Hamas while shunning the PA has directly led to this.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

[langster]

Hamas does not have any control in the West Bank to organize anything similar.

I thought they still have a significant presence in the West Bank? Also isn't the leader of the PNA like 87 years old and apparently in poor health and losing grip on things and disagreeing on many issues, especially the handling of Israel?

 

[The Corinthian]

Just to let you know as you may not have heard, almost all of them (100,000+) have fled to Armenia.

Noted - hadn't been following this conflict this week.

 

[owlo]

It seems entirely counterintuitive to me that Israel’s actions could constitute state terror, but because Netanyahu has said ‘this is a war’, that those precise actions are now no longer state terror. We laugh at Putin for calling something a ‘special military operation’ when reality tells us it’s obviously not. And that’s because we base our analysis on Russia’s actions, not it’s leader’s description of its actions. I can’t see the difference.

Russia are obviously at war yes, not committing state terror. Their entire military industrial complex is setup to support that war.

Their aim is to annex parts of a foreign state. You might find their grinding fires upon fires tactics brutal, but it’s war not terrorism.

 

[langster]

Yes, for the time being, there's nothing. There have been some violent protests in East Jerusalem but they've been 'contained' (this is the term we use in Hebrew, I guess you'll get my drift) by police forces.

And in a northern little village next to the (huge) border we share with Lebanon,
there was a heavy suspicion of Hezbollah fighters crossing the border.
fire was shot, and a couple of wounded... turned out it was IDF soldiers mistakenly thought to be enemy forces.

There have already been quite a few instances of... when IDF shoots at its own soldiers, again not sure what the term in English actually is.

Yeah, Gaza is Hamas run and operated and West Bank is the (internationally recognised) Palestinian Authority.

Really interesting article in the Times of Israel detailing how Netanyahu’s policy of appeasing Hamas while shunning the PA has directly led to this.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Thanks everyone for the replies, especially these two. Much appreciated.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I thought they still have a significant presence in the West Bank? Also isn't the leader of the PNA like 87 years old and apparently in poor health and losing grip on things and disagreeing on many issues, especially the handling of Israel?

The PLO (PNA) is a non-entity, and yes, Abu Mazen is quite old.
There will be many people over on the WB who support Hamas or any other organization that opposes Israel,
but they don't run the show there.