Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[VorZakone]

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This may be true but good to know this Twitter account has been unreliable in the past.

 

[calodo2003]

This may be true but good to know this Twitter account has been unreliable in the past.

K

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Of course, neither does the contradictory nature of the launch site in Gaza. But given the severity of the consequence of the world believing it was them, I could understand why they naively tried to manufacture evidence to further their claim. For me, I don’t want to jump to conclusions. Better to wait until more information comes out, if it ever does.

All the technology in this world and they can't figure it out yet? Is it that difficult or is it just a massive cover-up?

 

[owlo]

Does it matter if the specific strike was targeted at the hospital or not?

Every single Palestinian life and every single Israeli life lost is directly as a result of actions Hamas and the Israeli government have taken over decades. And both should be held responsible for every single drop of blood lost regardless of “intent” of a particular attack.

The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.

 

[owlo]

All the technology in this world and they can't figure it out yet? Is it that difficult or is it just a massive cover-up?

It’s figured out to a large degree of confidence. Certainty no, but as of this morning it was pretty much mystery solved. Not sure why anybody still thinks it was an air strike.

 

[The Corinthian]

The lack of physical evidence, particularly shrapnel is significant imo. Quite often, the tell tale sign it was one of the other was the fragments of the weapon used and when it's Israel at fault, it's quickly put online.

Well the Gazans said they have the warhead that proves it was Israel, although at the time of typing this they haven't presented it. Let's see what transpires.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Surprised we don't have a "*****" word filter on here yet.

That’s the kind of thing a **** would say

 

[owlo]

The audio that Israel presented sounds fabricated though, which is a pretty telling sign that someone isn't being transparent with the truth (for me anyways).

Best not to use anything that the IDF or Gaza give you at this point if you’re actually wanting truthful output.

 

[The Corinthian]

The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.

50 civilians? It's 471 civilians that were killed. You play loose with the facts too much for my liking. A bit like Israel to be honest.

Gaza health ministry spokesman says Israeli ‘massacre’ at Gaza hospital killed 471

 

[owlo]

Well the Gazans said they have the warhead that proves it was Israel, although at the time of typing this they haven't presented it. Let's see what transpires.

They’ve also said there’s 400+ dead and barred the site to international journalists.

50 civilians? It's 471 civilians that were killed. You play loose with the facts too much for my liking. A bit like Israel to be honest.

As I said, don’t trust anything coming out of the IDF or Gaza. It wasn’t 471 deaths.

 

[The Corinthian]

Best not to use anything that the IDF or Gaza give you at this point if you’re actually wanting truthful output.

It's Channel 4's analysis of the situation. The audio seems to be fabricated.

 

[Raven]

The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.

They've got form for bombing hospitals, indeed bombing the exact same hospital in the week leading up to this atrocity. Why on earth would you believe they're above something like this, given all of the evidence to the contrary?

 

[owlo]

It's Channel 4's analysis of the situation. The audio seems to be fabricated.

Which is why you don’t use it for analysing. The source was the IDF.

Doesnt change the overwhelmingly probable fact that the strike on the hospital was a terrorist rocket breaking up, and it killed 50ish who were seeking shelter on the grassy patch 10 metres or so away.

 

[VorZakone]

They've got form for bombing hospitals, indeed bombing the exact same hospital in the week leading up to this atrocity. Why on earth would you believe they're above something like this, given all of the evidence to the contrary?

Where can I read about the previous bombing?

 

[The Corinthian]

They’ve also said there’s 400+ dead and barred the site to international journalists.

Eh? Are you intentionally chatting bollocks? Most of the journalists there already work for international news organisations.

Reporting at Gaza City’s al-Shifa Hospital, BBC Arabic reporter Adnan Elbursh and his team discovered their own neighbors, relatives and friends among those injured and killed.

Over the years, NPR has relied on Anas Baba to be its eyes and ears within Gaza. This past week was no exception.

“I was forced to leave my job … to go to my family in order to evacuate them,” he told NPR over a scratchy phone line last week, only to find that other neighborhoods were just as dangerous. “… Where am I going to hide them? Is there any safe place in Gaza?”

 

[4bars]

Which is why you don’t use it for analysing. The source was the IDF.

Doesnt change the overwhelmingly probable fact that the strike on the hospital was a terrorist rocket breaking up, and it killed 50ish who were seeking shelter on the grassy patch 10 metres or so away.

Did you post the source of 50 people before? I didn't see it skimming the thread too much if you did

 

[Superden]

The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.

I think the several hundred dead matter more.

 

[The Corinthian]

Which is why you don’t use it for analysing. The source was the IDF.

Doesnt change the overwhelmingly probable fact that the strike on the hospital was a terrorist rocket breaking up, and it killed 50ish who were seeking shelter on the grassy patch 10 metres or so away.

The irony. You're literally basing that on what the IDF have presented you.

 

[The Corinthian]

It wasn’t 471 deaths.

Based on what?

 

[owlo]

They've got form for bombing hospitals, indeed bombing the exact same hospital in the week leading up to this atrocity. Why on earth would you believe they're above something like this, given all of the evidence to the contrary?

You want to check twitter or bellingcat for that. I’ve consistently said I’m not a damage analysis expert or whatever, so my words are worthless on it. That said there’s been some reliable sources posted, and anybody who has been bombed knows that’s not an impact crater consistent with it. All the evidence points towards what the expert I posted last night said ; fire damage from rope plant after a rocket breakup.

 

[owlo]

The irony. You're literally basing that on what the IDF have presented you.

No, I’m basing that on analysis of the situation from people who actually know what they are talking about and the crater posted by bellingcat.

Based on what?

The evidence on the ground from the damage the bomb did. Again, not my analysis but that of experts, and noted by bellingcat too.

 

[Superden]

I'm sorry if I've got this wrong @owlo But are you trying to say that demonstrators chanting anti semitic slogans is actually much worse than civilians being killed?

 

[The Corinthian]

No, I’m basing that on analysis of the situation from people who actually know what they are talking about and the crater posted by bellingcat.



The evidence on the ground from the damage the bomb did. Again, not my analysis but that of experts, and noted by bellingcat too.

Post your source at least.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

They’ve also said there’s 400+ dead and barred the site to international journalists.


As I said, don’t trust anything coming out of the IDF or Gaza. It wasn’t 471 deaths.

If there are no reliable sources how are you so certain that it wasn't 471 deaths? What's your source? How can the size of the crater tell you how many people died? One death is too many.

 

[owlo]

I'm sorry if I've got this wrong @owlo But are you trying to say that demonstrators chanting anti semitic slogans is actually much worse than civilians being killed?

No. Though it’s a thorny nuanced point you’re not ready to process, so I wont attempt to explain it.

And the anti semitic slogans annd peaceful yet anti semitic aren’t the issue. They are rational responses

 

[Superden]

Also @owlo bellingcat arent saying any more than this..(which kind of undermines you regurgitating IDF info)

In a press conference Wednesday, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Daniel Hagari outlined their analysis of the blast and why they believe it came from inside Gaza. He also stated that “no craters can be identified” at the site.

An image supplied to media along with a press release by the Israel Defense Forces, Bellingcat has appended the location of a possible crater with a yellow square.
One of the images that Hagari held up during the press conference to support the claim that there were no craters at the site shows what appears to be a crater in a location corresponding with the Instagram video. The IDF did not immediately reply to a request for comment.

 

[Superden]

No. Though it’s a thorny nuanced point you’re not ready to process, so I wont attempt to explain it.

And the anti semitic slogans annd peaceful yet anti semitic aren’t the issue. They are rational responses

Right, so you can't make your argument as we won't understand it. That's classic hasbara thinking.

 

[E-mal]

The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.

''50ish'' Way to place value on human lives.

'The frothing hatred against Jews' not that a 6 year old Palestinian kid was stabbed 26 times to death.

It was the terrible reporting claiming that babies were beheaded that fueled the Israeli response.

The circle of violence has to be broken and a diplomatic solution must be sought after

 

[owlo]

Post your source at least.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/

They link to Marc Garlasco, a Military Advisor at PAX for Peace’s Protection of Civilians team, and a war crimes investigator. He says:

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Pretty definitive. He also confirms it was a war crime from hamas/Islamic jihad and that it wasn’t an Israeli missile. https://twitter.com/marcgarlasco

And this is Justin Bronks opinion from before we had the crater or daytime images. He’s posted more since.

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[The Corinthian]

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Again from the Nuseirat camp from the day before - Israelis struck it over 2 days.

Today's strike killed 30, many of them women and kids.

Spoiler: viewer discretion advised - a 1 week year old dead baby that was at Nuseirat camp

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[owlo]

Right, so you can't make your argument as we won't understand it. That's classic hasbara thinking.

What’s hasbara thinking? It’s simply the juvenile approach to discussing war combined with a content cannon of more and more gruesome stuff to feed a political view. “Here have information about beheaded babies or a hospital.have this information NOW. And don’t forget, the other side is evil and non rational, and this is the most important information”

 

[Rampant Red Rodriguez]

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IDF bombed 19 clinics & hospitals in the last 10 days. They target civilians all the time. They aren't "the good guys".

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[Rampant Red Rodriguez]

And israel has frequently bombed the Gaza refugee camps. The very families whose homes were stolen during the nakba and given to the settlers.

 

[sullydnl]

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Of the "expert" opinions I've seen on twitter so far, this is the one I would place the most stock in. Primarily because he is the author of a previous report that found that Israel had violated international humanitarian law in drone strikes on civillians, so I don't believe there's any question of bias at play.

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[Raven]

Where can I read about the previous bombing?

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IDF bombed 19 clinics & hospitals in the last 10 days. They target civilians all the time. They aren't "the good guys".

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[frostbite]

So, it was the Islamic Jihad, another terrorist organization operating out of Gaza, that caused the destruction at the hospital. The Gaza terrorists lied. Is this a surprise to anyone?


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/world/middleeast/islamic-jihad-gaza-hospital-israel.html

 

[4bars]

So, it was the Islamic Jihad, another terrorist organization operating out of Gaza, that caused the destruction at the hospital. The Gaza terrorists lied. Is this a surprise to anyone?


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/world/middleeast/islamic-jihad-gaza-hospital-israel.html

As surprised as Israel state lying

 

[Halftrack]

It’s figured out to a large degree of confidence. Certainty no, but as of this morning it was pretty much mystery solved. Not sure why anybody still thinks it was an air strike.

No.

 

[JagUTD]

As surprised as Israel state lying

Truth is a victim in this conflict. Both sides are capable of the unthinkable as well as exploiting our emotions.

Meanwhile, people die. And how each individual atrocity is painted carries the very real possibility of leading to more deaths.

 

[Wibble]

On national television, to reduce everyone to being in terrorist circles, yes I feel it was reductive, racist and quite outrageous given the scale of the audience.

But you are bound to say that Moses. Being Irish and therefore by definition either a terrorist or at the very least you have an intimate knowledge of paramilitary planning and future attacks.