Assuming you’re referring to 1929, while it could be categorized as the first country-wide outbreak of Arab-Jewish violence under the British mandate, it is not accurate to describe it as the ‘origins’ of the conflict between them. The British commission appointed to investigate the violence of that year concluded that it was ultimately produced by Arab reaction to the Zionist settlement program, which had been underway for several decades by that point.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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This is just not gonna happen. Islam is very exclusive: My way or highway. Most of Muslim-majority countries, even secular ones like Turkey, have a strong influence of Islam and consequently the people from other religions are second-tier citizens (see Turkish Greeks in Turkey), and other religions get humiliated in constant basis (see the conversion of Aya Sofia, probably the most important Eastern Orthodox cathedral to a mosque despite being other thousands of mosques in Istanbul). There are some small meaningless exceptions like Albanian and Kosovo where Islam plays no role in government, but those are exceptions.
On the other hand, Judaism after the scare of Holocaust is not much better and Israel was defined always as a country of Jews. Essentially, a country, where Jews from all over the world can take shelter and be safe.
So when you have these two forces, having a Belgium scenario (or even a North Macedonia one) is just impossible to happen. Or at least impossible, until religions won’t play a big role in the world.
I know that's why I describe the key issues as immovable. That's literally the point I'm making.
I don't delight in Palestinian deaths. I don't condone IDF actions in Gaza either.
my point is that you will not see placards at these rallies advocating for a 2 state solution. All I see are calls for intifada/jihad. Nothing condemning Hamas. It is for a 1 state solution just for Palestinians.
It's about the eradication of the Jews. "From river to the sea" is advocating the cleansing of Jews
300k people marched in London yesterday. How many marched for the Uigher Muslims? 1million sat in concentration camps in China. They didn't march. No one cares. Because it's not the Jews.
they can't stand the fact that the Jews should have a Jewish homeland in the Arab world. A country smaller than Wales.
this is what it comes down to. And yes, it is about race.
No.
He agreed with the part that said the West are the terrorists, not ISIS. If you want to close it off as wumming then fine, whatever. But let’s not pretend that isn’t what he did.
Either way, end of.
What absolute nonsense. I was there yesterday - with a couple of colleagues from work (not that it should matter but British born non Muslims mind you). The chants were : we want a cease fire, stop the genocide, starmer shame on you, sunak shame on you, free free Palestine, end the blockade now etc. The speakers which included prominent human rights activists, a couple of politicians, Jewish voices for peace, some UK based Palestinians, and a handful of organizations whose name I didn’t catch.
All the speakers spoke to the right to dignity and life, the various war crimes being committed by Israel right now, they denounced the actions of Hamas and also called out people like you who equivocate Palestine with Hamas. You are gleefully rubbing your hands at babies being bombed. Introspect and think of what went wrong with you
It was about 100k according to the Guardian.
So basically you think anyone concerned about the escalating humanitarian crisis in Palestine is an antisemite because they aren't marching for the Uighers too? You've been reading the Telegraph comment section too much.
Human history would say otherwise.
Straight from the Guardian, which we certainly can see a more reputable source than Twitter. While not as vile and horrific as what the Hamas did on 7/10, what the settlers do in the West Bank can absolutely be defined as terrorism. It is also encouraged by a state claming to share the western values and supported by an army supposed to be the most moral in the world.
"As the world watches Gaza, the violence against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank has skyrocketed. Days before the 7 October attack, armed Israeli settlers, reportedly from the settlement of Esh Kodesh, stormed the Palestinian village of Qusra, which stands south-west of the city of Nablus. Settlers fired at residents who had gathered, unarmed, to protect their village. That night, under the cover of darkness, settlers returned to destroy cars and electricity lines.
In the following days, settlers cut off the road leading to the village, only to return on 11 October with Israeli occupation forces in tow. Israeli settlers opened fire at residents and rather than hold them back, as Israeli forces claim to do, they joined in. Four Palestinians were killed that day, with settlers killing three and soldiers killing one.
The next day, settlers returned and attacked the funeral for the four killed the day before, opening fire once again, killing a father and his son.
These are not isolated incidents. Since 7 October, settler attacks have risen to an average of eight incidents a day and have led to the displacement of 13 Palestinian communities. The Israeli government’s intention to arm its settlers with an additional 10,000 rifles will undoubtedly make the situation much worse."
"However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities."
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ettlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory
As a bonus, I'll give you the report of the UNOCHA which is a UN humanitarian organization, dated form September 2023, a month before the attacks.
https://www.unocha.org/publications...id-increasing-settler-violence-september-2023
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Works for the majority of countires
again this is where you are wrong. I don't delight over babies dying or any civilian caught up in this mess. On either side. So you are talking complete nonsense.
there were ISIS flags at the demo yesterday. LGBT flags ripped down as well by radicals. There were calls for Jihad too against Jews.
bookmark this message. As soon as Hamas or Hezbollah strike Israel again and when you see a huge loss of Israeli life, you'll see the celebrations on the streets from the same people you marched with. You will see their true colours. If Hamas was ruthlessly bombing Israel, there would be no March in solidarity with Israelis or calls to "end the genocide" or desire for ceasefire.
you chant for a Free Palestine but what does that even look like? Open the border to Gaza and let Hamas in to butcher and rape Israelis? Because that's what would happen.
From the Guardian...
Which examples do you have in mind? (America aside)
I don't get your point. How would human history support the idea that it's not possible beyond politics and political interests?
So you deny that Israeli settlers, with the support of the government and thr IDF, visit violence and terror on Palestinians in the West Bank and steal their homes and lands?
Yeah, but the light and hope won't be turned on two people discussing it on Redcafe, so it's a waste of time in my eyes, I'm afraid.
Just to be clear. You're asking for examples of nations that have multiple religions that have co-existed and still thrived?
I can list them if you want but it would be a long list!
That's the problem with extremists: They just want it more...
I bow to the depth of your counter-argument. You also skipped the part with the UNOCHA. They're lying too?
You're truly not woth engaging.
I shouldn't laugh but
.not denying it. I don't condone it either, whatsoever. Unfortunately Israel put in place these laws that discriminate against Palestinians in the West Bank.Reoccupying land that they say was formerly Jewish owned. I don't agree with it at all.
My point is that the Guardian is about the most anti-Israeli periodical out there.
I mean that the Israeli government has been systematically targeting Palestinians over time.
This isn't just about Hamas, although, of course, Hamas is a terror organization, and targeting them is more than understandable. But Hamas have no control over the West Bank, yet Israelis, armed by Ben-Gvir, are driving Palestinians out of their homes there. I believe they want to eradicate large portions of Palestinians through violence and denial of necessary resources, and that, to me, fills the criteria for genocide.
I also believe the way the Israelis are talking about the Palestinians, as if they are barely human, is a way of making it acceptable to both their own and the international community.
Backed by the US and the West, there is nothing that can or will stop the Israelis. I foresee a drawn-out war where the Palestinians are largely killed off and forced to flee.
Admittedly, I've been privy to some very personal feelings from an individual working in the IDF (claimed, internet relations, so I can't say for sure), and his way of expressing glee over the payback that is ongoing is making my stomach churn with how he combines it with dehumanizing talk about Palestinians in general. On another anecdotal note, I am also am in touch with an Israeli-American who has lost family and friends in the Hamas attacks, and while I would understand him voicing thoughts of bloody revenge towards all Palestinians, he refrains from doing so.
Then debunk it, if you believe it to be false.
And your repeated claims that you abhor the violence visited upon Palestinians by the Israelis ring incredibly hollow when all your effort goes into calling virtually everyone supporting Palestine antisemites.
You keep bringing up the Uyghurs. What's happening to to them in China is a tragedy, and definitely a genocide. The difference is that we literally can't do anything about it, and our leaders can't do anything about it. With the Palestinians there's at least a slight (very slight, even) chance we can. Our governments support Israel in its quest to cleanse the land of Palestinians, and if we can push them to withhold that support, maybe it would give Israel pause.
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.
Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
No, I'll take you back to JPRouve's claim that..."Outside of politics and political interests there is no reason to support the idea that palestinians and israelis can't live peacefully and religiously in a single state as a single nation where the entire nation thrives." Now whilst I welcome the sentiment behind the claim you have to actually examine the statement. Essentially he's saying that there's no reason, outside of politics and political interests, why two ethno-national groups (i.e. two nations) can't live peacefully and thrive as one nation in a single state. So that's what I'm asking for examples of I suppose.
As I mentioned above I welcome/applaud the sentiment behind what you're saying but...you're kind of describing an abstract state of being there, or in terms of an actual place; heaven or some earthly utopia.There will always be politics and political interests in human affairs because that's just a part of human existence. There will always be those who are motivated by power, greed and self-interest and there will always be those who will campaign or fight to correct inequalities (whether real or perceived). And often motivations of the former underpin the passions of the latter.
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Your digging a deeper and deeper hole with your failure to condemn atrocities
I still don't understand how this relates to the point I made or to human history. There is no abstraction in what I said, I didn't suggest that politics or political interests should be removed, I stated that it's the only reason against the existence of a peaceful single state in Israel-Palestine.
You are imagining things that haven't been stated.
You are missing the point here - would suggest you take a break.
I believe Israel is trying to reach its goals through genocide, and I am far from alone in that.
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Remember when pro-Israel folk used to push back against comparisons to Apartheid, and gave up once it was too obvious?
And it might well half in the next few years if there is mass starvation, dehydration and displacement. Along with every other crisis that comes with those things.
Not saying it will, but the IDF rhetoric so far suggests it might.
Indeed but that's extremist internet discourse for you. Pretty ironic too it has to be said given the chants of "Palestine will be free", one should look up the context of that particularly in Arabic, it dates back to the 1948 rejection and subsequent war - quite literally meaning free of the existence of Israel and the jews.
Canada doesn't think it was an Israeli airstrike.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-israel-gaza-hospital-1.7004384
Dying for "performing jihad"
I think you will find that i have condemned it. The IDF have at times acted deplorably. I do not agree with collective punishment. Their actions have no doubt exacerbated the issues with the Palestinians in recent years.
Any loss of civilian life, on either side is a tragedy.I mourn for the plight of innocent Palestinians and the deaths of innocents. As I mourn the deaths of Israelis who have been killed in this episode.
I don't however lay the blame solely at the feet of Israel for what is going on. This is a complex conflict and both sides are at fault. No one more so than Hamas.
Exactly. "From River to the Sea" is genocidal. That is what they mean when they sing it.
I don't condone the actions of the ultra Orthodox Jewish settlers in West Bank at all. They are a problem Israel has to address quickly to have any chances for a peaceful solution. They are totally counterproductive and make any peace talks more difficult (if not impossible).
Online I found that 30 Israelis and 197 Palestinians have died until October 7th in the West Bank which is a powder keg ready to explode.
That's why everybody was surprised the attack came out of Gaza which actually has been pretty quiet.
October 7th attacks are one a complete different level though. The recording of the atrocities and publishing them in social media is a wicked plan to create more hate (on both sides) and torpedoe any peace initiatives.
Unfortunately, Hamas seems to have achieved their goals.
They derailed the ongoing peace process between Israel and other Arabic states.
They ignited new, strong hatred amongst Muslims towards Israel who is responding to the attacks.
Even moderate Arabic countries are under pressure and cancelled meetings with western politicians to discuss possible actions to prevent this conflict to get out of control.
Hamas doesn't want peace. Hamas wants chaos and war.