Excellent link, thanks.Some analysis of Nasrallah and Khamenei from an Israeli perspective:
'Khamenei is not in a hurry to destroy Israel; he has a broader vision'
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10...ry-to-destroy-israel-he-has-a-broader-vision/
Yeah I think you're right. Can't be doing with this to be honest. I don't mind those that argue in good faith and there's a lot of good people here, but there's also too many bullies that just pile in in their wake, and some of them are getting full mask off these days.The argument is near pointless here. There's a fundamental disconnect between how you feel (attacked, wanting to feel safe, wanting to discuss how Israel can defend itself without killing/war) and how the majority of posters on this thread feel. (if you want to be safe and not feel attacked, dont support israel. condemn their existence. dont be a zionist. its your own fault for supporting a regime oppressing Palestinians. Israel don't have a right to defend itself because it created this mess and it's their own fault, if they want to feel safe they should give land to Palestinians)
The posting of the ridiculous Meah Shearim videos and their popularity confirm this. They want to pit it was "against evil zionists, not jews. look what israel does to jews who disagree" completely disregarding the facts that heavy handed policing in this instance is normal and you'd be suprised if it wasn't. They literally celebrate Hamas and the death of Israelis there whilst taking social security and hating everyone. And not just that, the constant gaslighting of Jews with logic like "Well, we like Jews who aren't Zionists" - as in, you have no agency, we'll be anti semitic if you don't follow our view.
You probably just need to disengage from the discussion as there's nothing to be had from it. They fundamentally do not believe in Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state. And they believe that everything that happens bad, is a consequence of bad Israeli action. (I mean hell, Israeli civilians aren't real civilians because they are Zionists and caused the problems. Palestinians are real civilians because they are oppressed and had no choice but to cause problems. A civilian is not a civilian. A civcas is an automatic warcrime)
If you point out something as simple as, if Hamas put fighters in a hospital or an HQ under one and Israel bomb it, it's essentially a legitimate target, and Hamas committed the warcrime. Then you get chaos.
To be fair, I laughed out loud when I read this. Thank you.He has no interest in any kind of balanced discussion. He's constantly in the exaggeration, hyperbole and disingenuous conflations
It's far from a universally held view that he is the 'anointed one.' The problem (or benefit) is that the other option is somewhat of a dumbass, so would be more likely controlled (by the IRGC etc). Mojtaba is also deeply unpopular within Iran, he got control of the Militia beating in peoples heads in the latest protests; his father is a Shiite ideologue not emperor wannabe, and he may feel it safer/more prudent to back Raisi.Excellent link, thanks.
I also believe that Hamas expected that Hezbollah would join much sooner, but I also think that the US stopping Israel to blindly throw themselves in what absolutely looked like a trap might have changed the situation. It's the 'wait and see' attitude at the moment where anything is still possible.
Didn't know about Khamaenei's son and his place in the succession. Now that's someone who would make me worry.
You're probably right that not many opinions are getting exchanged here. A lot of people are too entrenched in their position for any meaningful discussion to take place. Still, if nothing else, I've read some stuff on here that have at least made me consider my own position more critically instead of reacting emotionally (though I still do that too often).Fair enough. And I don't think many people's opinions are getting changed in discussions like this to be fair! It's good to vent sometimes.
And of course Israel deserves a lot of criticism and anger. I just think it's too extreme and bordering on hate and the consequences of that lack of restraint will be faced in many ways, in the region and around the world.
You seem to think everyone just hates Israel by default, which is just a load of shite for the majority of people. The reason people dislike the Israeli government is because of what they are doing and have done for years.Ah OK. A few things.
1) So you want Israel held to higher standards. I'm not getting that vibe from the protests. Hundreds of thousands of people gutted that Israel didn't live up to their lofty expectations? Maybe some. Some just want the killing to stop. Some hate Israel and want it destroyed. This whole thing is about way more than high expectations.
2) Israel may be a western oriented country, but it doesn't have the luxury of being in Europe. Even our precious western democracies would act differently if they were literally surrounded by a dozen or more states wanting them dead. That doesn't excuse their actions, but I'm just pointing out that their environment is very very different and expecting them to enact some sort of schengen passport scheme is unrealistic.
3) your reference to the holocaust is pathetic and I won't engage with it. No other country gets the holocaust thrown in its face, as if actually going through it wasn't enough. Just deal with what's happening now please on its own terms.
4) there's an implicit bias in what you're saying that other countries are automatically held to lower standards. Yes thousands may die in <insert whataboutery reference here> but that's to be expected really I guess, even if there's more actual deaths involved. Are you more interested in the victims if the perpetrators are your favourite villains?
You're most welcome.To be fair, I laughed out loud when I read this. Thank you.
Didn't you get the memo? All the gazans voted for hamas 16 years ago making all gazans hamas members.Zionist cnuts have killed just over 9,000 people.
How many of them are confirmed Hamas fighters?
It was not an analogy. It was the reality of of how Alexander decided to do the place while not losing his soldiers. Chances are that any other army will do the same.Not sure if this is the best analogy since Hamas have their own food/water/fuel supplies underground. Not to mention shelter in an underground city. Obviously, its the civilians on the surface who will bear the brunt of everything during a siege.
Yeah if only they weren't hoarding all that diesel for rockets they could light up the entire Strip.Shhhh. fuel shmuel it's all the same.
Even the children that were not even born back then.Didn't you get the memo? All the gazans voted for hamas 16 years ago making all gazans hamas members.
Both alternatives don't feel me with confidence.It's far from a universally held view that he is the 'anointed one.' The problem (or benefit) is that the other option is somewhat of a dumbass, so would be more likely controlled (by the IRGC etc). Mojtaba is also deeply unpopular within Iran, he got control of the Militia beating in peoples heads in the latest protests; his father is a Shiite ideologue not emperor wannabe, and he may feel it safer/more prudent to back Raisi.
Yeah, it's pretty accurate.Is the translation of that tweet reliable? I mean the words of the minister.
Well, part of the madness of Israeli politics is that there are over 30 ministers right now, to satisfy the needs of all coalition parties and members. This guy - who represents the racist right wing - is the minister of Heritage. What does that mean, you ask? Well, I've no idea.I keep hearing that these fascist nutters are on the fringes of Israeli society, yet all these quotes I'm reading seem to be coming from ministers?
They became that way beause Netanyahu, in a total irresponsible manner, sold his soul to the racist right in order to survive politically, and to hell with the consequences. In the past he wouln't get anywhere near those people.They are part of the majority and mainstream.
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That's true. In the past similar ideologies and discourses were easily criticized and banned, as the banning of Kach illustrates. But the people behind it have always existed and acted on it, they were just not openly supported by people at the top of the political pyramid. An illustration of that is that support for Baruch Goldstein was allegedly used as an argument to ban these movements in the early 90s and yet nearly 30 years later you have ministers openly supporting that legacy. Israel(and Palestine) slowly but surely went backwards and it is that slow burn that is so dangerous for both sides, extremists are totally aware of it while the rest of the population arab and jewish are kind of oblivious.They became that way beause Netanyahu, in a total irresponsible manner, sold his soul to the racist right in order to survive politically, and to hell with the consequences. In the past he wouln't get anywhere near those people.
Yea, he should be long dead. I'm rather invested in Iran emotionally, my family moved from there to Britain [and then Israel] just before the revolution (my Gran having arrived from Poland in 1942 as a small child and having stayed there with an Iranian family taking care of her as opposed to emigrating to Palestine), and it's a place that someday I would love to 'return' to, having heard all the stories it feels like it should be close to my heart.Both alternatives don't feel me with confidence.
Also didn't realize that Khamenei was in place since 1989.
Tanks are useless on their own for that very reason. Particularly in urban areas, which is what they're about to head into.Crazy clip from Gaza. Apparently released by Hamas… He just walks towards the tank and put an explosive on it...
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To be fair, that post you're quoting could easily be phrased as a "full mask off" moment too. More so than the vast majority i've read in here. It's full of accusations i've not seen from anyone posting regularly, like not seeing any Israeli civilians as such and not believing in any right for Israel as a state to exist. That last sentence is just trying to be slick without actually outright saying bombing hospitals (and by the same logic the refugee camps/safe areas) is all fine and legitimate if there's any Hamas presence at all.Yeah I think you're right. Can't be doing with this to be honest. I don't mind those that argue in good faith and there's a lot of good people here, but there's also too many bullies that just pile in in their wake, and some of them are getting full mask off these days.
Don't misquote me to say something completely different in my name. Thanks.To be fair, that post you're quoting could easily be phrased as a "full mask off" moment too. More so than the vast majority i've read in here. It's full of accusations i've not seen from anyone posting regularly, like not seeing any Israeli civilians as such and not believing in any right for Israel as a state to exist. That last sentence is just trying to be slick without actually outright saying bombing hospitals (and by the same logic the refugee camps/safe areas) is all fine and legitimate if there's any Hamas presence at all.
No, it's not fine. It's a barbaric doctrine to resort straight to bombing such places (which should only be involved as an absolute last resort in any conflict) into oblivion just because there might be a basement/bunker HQ under it, or some fighters hiding there. If they are intent on sending in boots on the ground, its well within their military capabilities to neutralise and isolate those issues without casually wiping out masses of civilians. It's the Hamas fighters that are mobile in the wider city and tunnels that are going to be their main problem.
Been some news reports they might try. Been done for decades with success. (flood, fire, gas) Egypt did it to Hamas in 2016ish. Hostages a concern in a fast flood scenario.What would be the logistics behind flooding Hamas tunnels? Feasible? Non starter?
I thought this would be the first response and what they actually did as the absolute last resort.What would be the logistics behind flooding Hamas tunnels? Feasible? Non starter?
Ahh, gotcha. Thanks.Well, part of the madness of Israeli politics is that there are over 30 ministers right now, to satisfy the needs of all coalition parties and members. This guy - who represents the racist right wing - is the minister of Heritage. What does that mean, you ask? Well, I've no idea.
Is it inevitable? Is it always the case?Its inevitable. You cannot bomb people into accepting occupation. We tried it in Iraq, we tried it for 20 years in Afghanistan (and the USSR did for a decade before that). The taliban are back in control and Iraq is turfing out the US with the same warlord types in charge.
All bombs do is create the next generation of terrorists. Or do people really think a 14 year old that is the only survivor of their family is going to grow up and work on an olive farm?
Those who didn't produce a generation of terrorists are the ones that were put in a position to thrive. Palestinians have little chance of thriving, at least not in Palestine. And if they want to thrive elsewhere, they have to do it as refugees and immigrants.Is it inevitable? Is it always the case?
I'd suggest not. And you can apply it to an individual who was abused all the way up to entire races enslaved.
Most people would not excuse someone who was abused growing up then choosing to abuse others. Many who suffer do not chose to extract the same pain on others.
Some nations who suffered greatly at the hands of others did not infect produce a generation of terrorists. In fact, some chose a better way, they thrived.
Could you? There's an argument to be made for it being the exact opposite, where Israel have gone from being the abused to being the abusers. It's easy to understand how it happened too, just like it's easy to understand why Palestinians are turning militant.You could even apply this way of thinking to Israel itself, or rather to the Jewish population given the centuries of hatred and violence against them.
Yeah I can see the risk but are hostages more at risk from flooding than air strikes? Just seems to me that if it were feasible it would be the most efficient way of targeting Hamas without having to go through civilians. Obviously I'm no strategist though.Been some news reports they might try. Been done for decades with success. (flood, fire, gas) Egypt did it to Hamas in 2016ish. Hostages a concern in a fast flood scenario.
You really do have to pick between "not being in favor of dropping bombs on thousands of children" and "the other option." It's not the kind of thing where "degrees of" works very well.I can take constructive criticism from a lot of posters here. Either you're not reading the posts, not understanding them or choosing to pigeonhole posters into some stupid pro/anti teams.
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There isn't now, but if we are ever to see an end to this cycle, there will have to be eventually.Those who didn't produce a generation of terrorists are the ones that were put in a position to thrive. Palestinians have little chance of thriving, at least not in Palestine. And if they want to thrive elsewhere, they have to do it as refugees and immigrants.
Could you? There's an argument to be made for it being the exact opposite, where Israel have gone from being the abused to being the abusers. It's easy to understand how it happened too, just like it's easy to understand why Palestinians are turning militant.
What do you mean by "lone actors" acting out?I think this shit could start to get really ugly in the UK. I get the sense a lot of people have been holding back hoping Israel eventually stops, but it doesn't seem like they are. Eventually a lot of people will say enough is enough and resort to more violent acts to protest. It's incredible this shit is allowed to go on for more than a month with no one in the world doing anything. fecked up world we live in.
The worst is so many people bending over backwards to explain why Jews are afraid or why this was so bad for Israel - like feck who's the one with hundred dead everyday and 3700 kids dead so far? Whose the one actively dying? Like I care about Israelis too of course and Oct 7 was horrible , but whose the one dying right now every day? Imagine sticking 2m Jews into Gaza and letting them get bombed to shit for 30 days straight with a food and water blockade? Why is it okay when it's Palestinians? I've never known anger on this quite so bad as it is (including myself) and if no government in the world is going to intervene to help you're going to see a lot of lone actors acting out. It's getting way past being ridiculous
Thanks for clarifying. I don't really see what people expect to achieve by such actions though. And depending on the targets of such action, corporate, state, pro Israel or Jews, not only will it achieve nothing, it could have a very damaging effect on those responsible and the wider cause depending on who or what is the victim.I mean anger will boil into people doing more violent shit. Throwing bricks at windows, vandalising, hell even physical attacks against people. There's lot of anger and helplessness there. There's only so long you can expect people to watch a genocide unfolding live and go along with it.
Behind the scenes sure for hostages and some aid may e but publicly the UK USA etc have condoned the current genocide by standing behind 'Israel has a right to defend itself'. They're not going to do shit, this will only end like always when Israel decides it's had its fill. Everything else like 'clearing out Hamas' (impossible) is just an front.
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