I'd really hope there's a baseline moral view that's shared at least when it comes to the safety of children. I completely understand and empathise that those closer to the situation may find there's challenged though.Is there a singular moralistic view?
This is why talking about legality only gets you so far."The Jabalya strike, because it was a planned attack, shows that Israel must have a tolerance for civilian casualties which is orders of magnitude greater than that that was used by, say, the U.S. Air Force in the war against ISIS", said Mark Lattimer, executive director of the Ceasefire Centre for Civilian Rights.
Another U.S. administration official told The Post the Israeli calculus about acceptable levels of civilian casualties was clearly different than that of the United States, but insisted there was a robust process in place to assess each strike. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk about sensitive conversations.
The United States provides the Israeli army with military and intelligence support, and is therefore required by the Geneva Conventions to ensure that bombing raids in Gaza do not breach international law.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/05/israel-strike-targets-gaza-civilians-hamas/
I think their level is 'who fecking cares?'.You can take this info with a massive grain of salt, but this is from an article by the Washington Post, published a few days ago:
This is why talking about legality only gets you so far.
Its an interesting point to explore.You can take this info with a massive grain of salt, but this is from an article by the Washington Post, published a few days ago:
This is why talking about legality only gets you so far.
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My gut says maybe not, but I am trying not to rely on that. Ultimately I don't know how bloody an urban war should / should not be, especially one where the enemy infrastructure is buried under civilian facilities.In your view is Israel conducting its operation with the view to minimalise civilian casualties and the scale of human suffering?
Because if you accept Israel has the right to defend itself, then certain things follow. It's not putting on a Blair act to try to think this stuff through for yourself. What is really offensive and obfuscatory is the use of words like genocide, which is designed to end discussion.It feels a bit distasteful and offensive for some to try and obfuscate the ongoing deaths of children behind legal frameworks. It's bad enough when politicians do it in their diplomatic role, I can't think of any good reason for individuals to pull out the Blair act.
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Certain things being what exactly? You keep claiming to be thinking things through but you've seemingly yet to put any thoughts forward other than saying you don't know or slurring others.Because if you accept Israel has the right to defend itself, then certain things follow. It's not putting on a Blair act to try to think this stuff through for yourself. What is really offensive and obfuscatory is the use of words like genocide, which is designed to end discussion.
I suspect a lot of the people commenting on this, don't at heart really believe Israel has a right to defend itself - maybe because they think the state of Israel itself lacks legitimacy, or because they brought it on themselves, or whatever. If so, just come out and say it.
And I think some do think Israel has that right, but don't really know what the right level of response is. That is more the camp I am in.
And then you have people who don't want to think about it and are just reacting instinctively to the latest images. Fine, I guess.
With all due to respect, this tells me your knowledge of this conflict is extremely lacking if this is the conclusion you've come to.In the meantime, more conflicts break out in Africa, the Darfur region of Sudan. Ukraine has almost been forgotten by the media, maybe as there's no religeous element to it. At least we've had a week without some nutter gunning down innocent citizens in the USA. All conflicts are bad and taking sides doesn't help. I watched a BBC correspondent rinsed by an International Law attorney when she insisted that Israel were breaking International Law on wars. They weren't although I find it hard to imagine some tank commander checking his book of International Law before he shells a building. Only from what I've seen on TV and read a little, Hamas is Palestine. They control everything, they levy a tax on any aid that arrives including monetary aid. The brave souls are hiding behind the civilians and that is why so many innocents are being killed. This is the end game for Israel after years of guerrilla attacks. Thomas Sowell wrote 'There are no solutions, only trade offs' and he is correct.
The way you present it Israel has no choice but to accept defeat as it cannot engage in attacking and eliminating an enemy that's hiding behind children. An enemy that will wait for the next opportunity to strike, then run back and again hide behind children. Clearly this isn't sustainable.Certain things being what exactly? You keep claiming to be thinking things through but you've seemingly yet to put any thoughts forward other than saying you don't know or slurring others.
Self-defence is a given and no one has argued against that. Enjoy that strawman if it pleases you or makes you feel superior.
It's quite simple, define your own parameters for when it's reasonable to kill children? Because that's the starting point for judging a reasonable response here, it has to be because it's the biggest cost in this conflict.
If your answer is anything short of Israeli soldiers lives being worth more than a kid in Gaza then how can you not be outraged at the methods they're using?
I'm not sure killing all those children to get to the bad guys makes you the good guy though.The way you present it Israel has no choice but to accept defeat as it cannot engage in attacking and eliminating an enemy that's hiding behind children. An enemy that will wait for the next opportunity to strike, then run back and again hide behind children. Clearly this isn't sustainable.
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One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...With all due to respect, this tells me your knowledge of this conflict is extremely lacking if this is the conclusion you've come to.
This is a truly absurd fantasy.One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
The state of this.One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
Except it is an objectively false statement. Hamas only have jurisdiction in the Gaza strip, not the state of Palestine which he claims.One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
Of course it is. You cannot take a single word I wrote seriously because we all know something like that would never, ever happen. Not even in the most outrageous Gazan fantasy.This is a truly absurd fantasy.
Right-wing trolls like yourself is so predictable now. First post consists of pretending to wanting to be educated on the subject, hiding the true agenda behind seemingly innocent questions from "both sides". Then that is followed up with only questions aimed at one side before the real agenda gets exposed after a couple of more posts.One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
I'm a communist, actually. And my post wasn't to be taken seriously as I've already explained. There's nothing to debunk or not to debunk in it.Right-wing trolls like yourself is so predictable now. First post consists of pretending to wanting to be educated on the subject, hiding the true agenda behind seemingly innocent questions from "both sides". Then that is followed up with only questions aimed at one side before the real agenda gets exposed after a couple of more posts.
Even this post I'm quoting is so easily debunked yet I bet you don't really care for the answers anyway.
It's a stupid scenario with no connection to reality, regardless of who it involves. It's on the same level as people hearing about terrorist attacks and going "well why didn't they all just gang up on the terrorists and take them out?" It's nonsense.Of course it is. You cannot take a single word I wrote seriously because we all know something like that would never, ever happen. Not even in the most outrageous Gazan fantasy.
Sure. Because history teaches us there have never been uprisings and revolutions and no government has ever been overthrown by its own people.It's a stupid scenario with no connection to reality, regardless of who it involves. It's on the same level as people hearing about terrorist attacks and going "well why didn't they all just gang up on the terrorists and take them out?" It's nonsense.
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For a communist you're not very informed about the conditions and events that lead to uprisings and revolutions.Sure. Because history teaches us there have never been uprisings and revolutions and no government has ever been overthrown by its own people.
I think many people here realize that the incredibly repetitive refrain of "Israel has the right to defend itself" is exactly what is meant to end discussion. It's a slogan, not an argument.Because if you accept Israel has the right to defend itself, then certain things follow. It's not putting on a Blair act to try to think this stuff through for yourself. What is really offensive and obfuscatory is the use of words like genocide, which is designed to end discussion.
I suspect a lot of the people commenting on this, don't at heart really believe Israel has a right to defend itself.
That's where we have to be careful, they may well be hiding behind civilians. I'm not claiming to know what's happening on the ground over in Gaza. But that's a line often trotted out to justify the killing of civilians by military powers whether it's true or not. It was an excuse used quite a lot in Northern Ireland by the British Army to justify killing civilians and children. Specifically in instances where it's since been determined it wasn't the case at all and those killings were 'unlawful'.In the meantime, more conflicts break out in Africa, the Darfur region of Sudan. Ukraine has almost been forgotten by the media, maybe as there's no religeous element to it. At least we've had a week without some nutter gunning down innocent citizens in the USA. All conflicts are bad and taking sides doesn't help. I watched a BBC correspondent rinsed by an International Law attorney when she insisted that Israel were breaking International Law on wars. They weren't although I find it hard to imagine some tank commander checking his book of International Law before he shells a building. Only from what I've seen on TV and read a little, Hamas is Palestine. They control everything, they levy a tax on any aid that arrives including monetary aid. The brave souls are hiding behind the civilians and that is why so many innocents are being killed. This is the end game for Israel after years of guerrilla attacks. Thomas Sowell wrote 'There are no solutions, only trade offs' and he is correct.
I believe in the Gazans. I believe they all deeply resent Hamas and do not want to be held hostages any longer. The revolution is only a question of time. All they need is a leader that will mobilize and organize the people around a shared purpose. Hamas' days are numbered.For a communist you're not very informed about the conditions and events that lead to uprisings and revolutions.
I'm genuinely interested to know what someone would get out of trolling on such a serious thread in such a serious time but you do you I guess.I believe in the Gazans. I believe they all deeply resent Hamas and do not want to be held hostages any longer. The revolution is only a question of time. All they need is a leader that will mobilize and organize the people around a shared purpose. Hamas' days are numbered.
The term "hiding behind civilians" is simply an umbrella term that lays out what is obvious and logical - that Hamas, as a paramilitary, insurgent organization, use their surrounding environment to their advantage by blending in with the public, because they knew previous Israeli ROE prevented them from going after them there. This includes things like what Hamas operatives are themselves describing below at 3:00.That's where we have to be careful, they may well be hiding behind civilians. I'm not claiming to know what's happening on the ground over in Gaza. But that's a line often trotted out to justify the killing of civilians by military powers whether it's true or not. It was an excuse used quite a lot in Northern Ireland by the British Army to justify killing civilians and children. Specifically in instances where it's since been determined it wasn't the case at all and those killings were 'unlawful'.
It's such an idiotic one too. First and foremost, they did a shitty job of defending themselves on October 7, given the superiority in every sector except moralI think many people here realize that the incredibly repetitive refrain of "Israel has the right to defend itself" is exactly what is meant to end discussion. It's a slogan, not an argument.
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I asked a few days ago about a specific breakdown of the Gazan population, religious extremists suporting Hamas and IJ, non-religous but nationalist supporters vs non-supporters, secular/ Western oriented sympathizers, etc. It's often said Gazans are held hostage by Hamas. What exactly does that mean considering a mass of civilians participated in the 07.10 massacre. Does a Hamas fighter become a regular Gazan civilian when he takes off his uniform? How many regular, ordinary Gazans support Hamas and their ideology? How many civilians were dancing in the streets on 07.10 because they genuinely rejoiced in the murder of Jews vs those who were disgusted by the massacre yet danced anyway out of fear? Does Hamas value the lives of Gazan children? Do regular non-Hamas adult parents value the lives of their children when they teach them to hate and kill the Jews? How many regular folks would participate in committing attrocities given the opportunity? Explain why Hamas is building rockets right next to a school, and how does this fly with the parents, teacher, neighbours? Do they all support Hamas' cause, or are they dead-scared to protest? Are there hundred thousand Gazans that genuinely despise Hamas, or are there only 10,000? Are there a million Gazans who see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace and prosperity? Is a Gazan mother who curses the Jews and hands out candy whenever a Jew is murdered 'innocent'? And what exactly does that mean? Explain to me the complexities of the Gazan population, their ideology, their theology and eschatology, and how it all connects with their goals and aspirations.I'm genuinely interested to know what someone would get out of trolling on such a serious thread in such a serious time but you do you I guess.
That does not sound very credible.What is quite telling about the testimony of the ground level Hamas guys is that they all clearly believe the use of hospitals, ambulances, schools, mosques etc., are great hiding places for weapons, ammo, and rockets, because they genuinely believe the Israelis don't attack those locations.
Right next to a school:That does not sound very credible.
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Recent polling suggests the last confrontation resulted in Hamas coming out with significant public support. So its not entirely surprising that this may have emboldened them to ultimately arrange what has transpired last month.I asked a few days ago about a specific breakdown of the Gazan population, religious extremists suporting Hamas and IJ, non-religous but nationalist supporters vs non-supporters, secular/ Western oriented sympathizers, etc. It's often said Gazans are held hostage by Hamas. What exactly does that mean considering a mass of civilians participated in the 07.10 massacre. Does a Hamas fighter become a regular Gazan civilian when he takes off his uniform? How many regular, ordinary Gazans support Hamas and their ideology? How many civilians were dancing in the streets on 07.10 because they genuinely rejoiced in the murder of Jews vs those who were disgusted by the massacre yet danced anyway out of fear? Does Hamas value the lives of Gazan children? Do regular non-Hamas adult parents value the lives of their children when they teach them to hate and kill the Jews? How many regular folks would participate in committing attrocities given the opportunity? Explain why Hamas is building rockets right next to a school, and how does this fly with the parents, teacher, neighbours? Do they all support Hamas' cause, or are they dead-scared to protest? Are there hundred thousand Gazans that genuinely despise Hamas, or are there only 10,000? Are there a million Gazans who see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace and prosperity? Is a Gazan mother who curses the Jews and hands out candy whenever a Jew is murdered 'innocent'? And what exactly does that mean? Explain to me the complexities of the Gazan population, their ideology, their theology and eschatology, and how it all connects with their goals and aspirations.
