Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[groovyalbert]

A lot of people on that twitter got sacked for removing posters. How is that a sackable offence? What business do posters of Israelis have in the US or the UK? If they gave one crap about the hostages, they'd be asking for a ceasefire, because a lot of the hostages are dying and will die to Israel's bombing, something Israeli ministers have acknowledged and thus the families are protesting against. But this is just a cheap PR trick to detract from the slaughter going on - and that is how many people removing the posters see it as. Is that a sackable offense now?

And yeah there's loads on that twitter who've been sacked only for taking down posters.

Also Jasmine Hughes, an award winning New York Times writer, had to resign after signing a letter protesting Israel's assault on Gaza and calling it a genocide. The guardian has also asked people.

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There clearly is a very sustained and concentrated effort to punish anyone doing anything that's seen anti-Israel. By the same token is there any pushback for LeBron etc supporting Israel, whole they've killed 4000 kids so far? Imagine these people getting sacked were supporting Hamas, and not simply asking for a ceasefire?

The truth is there are many think tanks, lobby groups, NGO's and 'bipartison groups' like the antisemitism one I posted that are actively pushing back against pro Palestinian views. Combined with the financial power and the media influence in the US the pro-Israel and Zionist supporters have, it's a dangerous place for public figures to show support for Palestine.

I mean you literally had multiple random people in New York calling for Gaza to be wiped out a few weeks ago, I wonder if they've suffered any pushback? Somehow I doubt it. That's the power of organisation - you can make concentrated efforts to punish those you wish to. It's why America's support for Israel is so strong - the amount of lobbying power pro-Zionists have is insane. People aren't aware at just how widespread and strong the Zionists are in the US. There's so many lobby groups, think tanks and other groups, many of them which have hundred million+ in funding per year.

The most egregious to me is how few people are aware of the power groups like AIPAC hold, when a lot of the information on their tactics is in the public domain.

There are a lot more that just Israeli's being held captive, so if those posters are of British and US citizens then it would make perfect sense. And I struggle to see why anyone would be compelled to rip them down. Surely the only conclusions that could lead someone down that route is that they think it's fake news, they don't like seeing the reality of the situation, or they are glad the kidnappings took place.

Like I said earlier, why aren't they highlighting the Palestinians in Israeli cells? It's just a bit of an idiotic move to rip them down. And I don't see how doing that does anything to support the Pro-Palestinian movement.

 

[The Corinthian]

Well, the first evidence on the feed is of a doctor in London posting "Die Juden sind unsere Unglück" - the Jews are our misfortune - on Facebook. On Oct 10th. 3 days after the Oct 7 attack. He's apparently lost his job. I'd argue that justified and incredibly antisemitic.

The next one on the feed documents a former Apple employee equating Zionism to Nazism. Given the historical context, yeah - I'd be open to interpret that as being antisemitic.

And the next one where someone apparently was fired from their job was an instant from having taken down a poster, but whilst the cousin of the person kidnapped films and asks what she's doing. It's a pretty hateful move and demonstrates zero value for the lives in question.

And to the quote you mentioned, I think that to impart all blame on Israel for what is going on in this particular instance is simplistic and inaccurate, although not in itself antisemitic.

I was referring to the links I had posted not the Twitter handle. But I take it that when you said ‘Referencing more the posts where people have gone on to lose their jobs.’ You were referring to the Twitter handle and not the links, so I think we’re talking cross purposes here.

 

[The Corinthian]

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HonestReporting (also Honest Reporting or honestreporting.com) is a non-governmental organization that "monitors the media for bias against Israel" and has been described by several news outlets as a "pro-Israel media watchdog group".[1][2][3] The organization is a United States 501(c)3 registered charity headquartered in New York City, with its editorial staff based in Jerusalem.


The American Journalism Review described the organisation as a "pro-Israeli pressure group".[28]

After being criticized by HonestReporting for articles published by The Independent, author Robert Fiskwrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail.[29]

Following a 2004 article published in the British Medical Journal which criticised Israel for a high level of Palestinian civilian casualties and claimed that the pattern of injuries suggested routine targeting of children in situations of minimal or no threat, the journal received over 500 responses to its website and nearly 1,000 sent directly to its editor. In an analysis of the responses published in the journal, Karl Sabbagh concluded that the correspondence was orchestrated by Honest Reporting and aimed at silencing legitimate criticism of Israel. In his analysis Sabbagh pointed to evidence that the correspondents had not read the article. Sabbagh also documented a significant proportion of offensive, abusive and racist insults among the correspondence. An editorial by the BMJ referred to the campaign as bullying and said that the best way to counter such behaviour was to expose it to public scrutiny.[30][31] Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times, responded that Sabbagh's piece was "anti-Israel propaganda" that did not meet even "basic academic standards" of scientific analysis.[32]

We’re in Memri territory here, pal.

 

[berbatrick]

I'm referencing the instances of antisemitism on a specific twitter feed. Which, in the cases where people have lost their jobs, appear pretty fecking antisemitic.

Apart from what @marktan said, this one happened in my field:

Michael Eisen, a biology professor at the University of California, Berkeley, was ousted as editor in chief of the scientific journal eLife after reposting a satirical tweet from The Onion headlined: “Dying Gazans Criticized for Not Using Last Words to Condemn Hamas.” In the post he praised the publication for speaking with “more courage, insight and moral clarity than the leaders of every academic institution put together.”

The journal’s board says it removed Eisen because his “approach to leadership, communication and social media has at key times been detrimental” to the publication’s mission. Since losing his job, Eisen says he’s heard from others leery of talking publicly about the conflict for fear something similar might happen to them.

“Whatever robustness there used to be in institutions, they’ve been overwhelmed by these social-media campaigns and mobs of all sides of politics,” he says.

And whatever you may think of people primarily blaming Israel for 10/7, I don't think that can be construed as a direct line to "pretty fecking antisemitic" - that's what got a whole lot of people fired. I believe many have been fired after saying "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

A bunch more here: https://jewishcurrents.org/crisis-at-the-92nd-street-y
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/26/artforum-artists-gaza-ceasefire-martin-eisenberg/

The message is pretty clear - shut up - at least, never speak with your own name.

 

[groovyalbert]

I was referring to the links I had posted not the Twitter handle. But I take it that when you said ‘Referencing more the posts where people have gone on to lose their jobs.’ You were referring to the Twitter handle and not the links, so I think we’re talking cross purposes here.

Perhaps, yeah - sorry, I was referencing a specific anti semitism twitter page that was posted earlier. From the examples on that page where people had lost their jobs it seems pretty justified.

 

[The Corinthian]

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[calodo2003]

HonestReporting (also Honest Reporting or honestreporting.com) is a non-governmental organization that "monitors the media for bias against Israel" and has been described by several news outlets as a "pro-Israel media watchdog group".[1][2][3] The organization is a United States 501(c)3 registered charity headquartered in New York City, with its editorial staff based in Jerusalem.


The American Journalism Review described the organisation as a "pro-Israeli pressure group".[28]

After being criticized by HonestReporting for articles published by The Independent, author Robert Fiskwrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail.[29]

Following a 2004 article published in the British Medical Journal which criticised Israel for a high level of Palestinian civilian casualties and claimed that the pattern of injuries suggested routine targeting of children in situations of minimal or no threat, the journal received over 500 responses to its website and nearly 1,000 sent directly to its editor. In an analysis of the responses published in the journal, Karl Sabbagh concluded that the correspondence was orchestrated by Honest Reporting and aimed at silencing legitimate criticism of Israel. In his analysis Sabbagh pointed to evidence that the correspondents had not read the article. Sabbagh also documented a significant proportion of offensive, abusive and racist insults among the correspondence. An editorial by the BMJ referred to the campaign as bullying and said that the best way to counter such behaviour was to expose it to public scrutiny.[30][31] Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times, responded that Sabbagh's piece was "anti-Israel propaganda" that did not meet even "basic academic standards" of scientific analysis.[32]

We’re in Memri territory here, pal.

There seems to have been stringers embedded with Hamas during the attacks. For which news agencies is rather important & when they knew as well. Sorry for the less than scrupulous messenger, the message is the more important issue imo.

 

[groovyalbert]

Apart from what @marktan said, this one happened in my field:



And whatever you may think of people primarily blaming Israel for 10/7, I don't think that can be construed as a direct line to "pretty fecking antisemitic" - that's what got a whole lot of people fired. I believe many have been fired after saying "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

A bunch more here: https://jewishcurrents.org/crisis-at-the-92nd-street-y
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/26/artforum-artists-gaza-ceasefire-martin-eisenberg/

The message is pretty clear - shut up - at least, never speak with your own name.

I don't disagree with anything here, although I can understand how communities might be fearful of that chant if it's reality was actualised following 7 Oct.

And I don't think blaming Israel for Oct 7 makes you antisemitic, what I think does evidence antisemitism however are the examples of where people have gone on to be fired from their jobs on the specific feed that was shared. I'm not saying there haven't been unjustified dismissals.

 

[Frosty]

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Does this mean that news agencies knew about the upcoming attack, and did nothing? And does this also mean that CNN knew what was happening, but Mossad didn't?

 

[Raoul]

3:00 onwards.

These guys could never go back to a Hamas run Gaza after spilling the beans like this.

 

[Sky1981]

Western free speech

It's only free if you're burning Qur'an or making jokes about religion

 

[Pintu]

3:00 onwards.

These guys could never go back to a Hamas run Gaza after spilling the beans like this.

There will never be a Hamas run Gaza again… So he mightjust be fine if Israel releases him one day, but why would they if he was involved in the massacre of last month ?

But the credibility of these testimonies is inexistent… Only totalitarian regimes uses these stunts.

The israeli propaganda machine is sinking to ridiculous lows under this unbelievably incompetent far right government. We’ve seen Israel fabricate lies before (the first Qana massacre, Lebanon 96) but they used to be good and to work hard on it and make a convincing case...

 

[Pintu]

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The “only democracy…”

 

[JagUTD]

These settlers are fecking cnuts.

But, I'm so glad that we're finding out in our colleges/uni's/workplaces that who supports apartheid, racism, theft, and mass murder.

Think that's one thing everyone here can agree on.

Second part not so much. Most people support the civilian populations of Israel or Palestine, hopefully both if you're a half decent person. Just because people try to understand why something is happening, or make sense of the madness doesn't mean they support it, just as I don't think anyone supports those who may turn to terror in revenge, they just understand why some take that path.

 

[JagUTD]

This thread is reasonably fascinating if nothing else. As time goes on, it is largely descending into virtue signaling imo. Who can out-hate Israel the most, with the most provocative Tweet, latest clip of a radical statement from someone Jewish and so forth. I mean, if that brings you joy, I guess who am I to judge.

The last two pages basically read: not only were Hamas justified on October 7th, if anything we should be shocked that Israel and the world are even that upset about it. If you just read certain posters' comments recently, you'd think that Hamas was doing the world a favour on October 7th, by bringing the much-deserved attention to the Gazan situation, as well as demonstrating that Israel is not all powerful. Well done Hamas, good job all around.

I guess I'm now in the minority, but all I see now are people self-satisfied and none contributing towards any kind of solution or longer-term strategy. October 7th was the f*ck you Israel deserved. And if that has single-handedly ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, ensured there will now no longer be a two-state solution in our lifetimes well that's just too bad. And Israel's fault.

It's geuninely incredible to me. And some of these views were shared on October 7th and 8th, before Israel had done a single act of retribution.

I just find it agonisingly sad. Listening to the dehumanisation and appalling conditions of the Gazans. How both the west and the Arab world abandoned them to Israel's whims. How the far-right of Israel basically just sought to ignore them in their prison city, hoping the problem would just go away via death. Despite that, I have to believe the answer was never an attack like October 7th. Cutting off kids fingers and making the parents watch. Slowly pulling out eyeballs. Deliberately targeting and slowly killing kids at a music festival.

As per the book, violence is a language Israel understands. By all means, attack military targets. Hell, take hostages - that actually worked well for getting concessiosn in the past for Hamas.

If you honestly believe that indescriminately, deliberately and painfully murdering civilains is the answer to the Gazan question, then you can't be that upset about Israel's actions now imo. Because if you believe those acts have purpose, well then bombing an entire building to kill strategic targets is morally similar, if not superior. At least you can point towards the bombing of a building having a military goal. And if you're up in arms about the horrific things settlers have done to Palestinian citizens, well why are you laissez-faire about what Hamas did to Isreali civilians?

Anyway, I shall take my leave now, and hope that somewhere in the real corridors of power some smart people have ideas of how to move the situation forward. Because all I see is that October 7th made it far, far worse.

There's a trend towards everything Israeli or those who support them, even those who don't condemn them are the enemy now. Likely due to the sense of hopelessness as you say.

 

[That_Bloke]

Think that's one thing everyone here can agree on.

Second part not so much. Most people support the civilian populations of Israel or Palestine, hopefully both if you're a half decent person. Just because people try to understand why something is happening, or make sense of the madness doesn't mean they support it, just as I don't think anyone supports those who may turn to terror in revenge, they just understand why some take that path.

Excellent post.

 

[JagUTD]

Western free speech

It's only free if you're burning Qur'an or making jokes about religion

I mean, that's kind of what it is. You can include other religious texts though as well as flags and the rest.

Equally you're absolutely free to disagree with it and even protest against it.

 

[JagUTD]

Excellent post.

I think everyone needs to remember that civilians on both sides have suffered and that it's natural for some to express fear, anger and even hate in the moment.

 

[Sky1981]

I mean, that's kind of what it is. You can include other religious texts though as well as flags and the rest.

Equally you're absolutely free to disagree with it and even protest against it.

Except it's not, Try mocking the Tanakh. You'd be cancelled pretty fast and probably any event of burning the Tanakh live would be stopped under the anti semitism law.

Let's not pretend the west is a fair arbiter in all this, they're not.

 

[JagUTD]

Except it's not, Try mocking the Tanakh. You'd be cancelled pretty fast and probably any event of burning the Tanakh live would be stopped under the anti semitism law.

Let's not pretend the west is a fair arbiter in all this, they're not.

Of course you are correct. I was just stating the theory of free speech. We all know that in practice it doesn't work like that at all.

You're just as likely to be arrested and cancelled in the UK for burning the Qur'an though. Largely because it's often done to incite hatred.

Often though, those most vocal about something they value being desecrated are quite happy to desecrate something they don't value. Somewhat ironic tbh.

 

[The United]

Of course you are correct. I was just stating the theory of free speech. We all know that in practice it doesn't work like that at all.

You're just as likely to be arrested and cancelled in the UK for burning the Qur'an though. Largely because it's often done to incite hatred.

Often though, those most vocal about something they value being desecrated are quite happy to desecrate something they don't value. Somewhat ironic tbh.

Not much point engaging him because he will absolutely miss the point deliberately. He is always having snide comments about 'western freedom and democracy'.

Bet he would like to stay under Xi or maybe he already is.

 

[africanspur]

Not much point engaging him because he will absolutely miss the point deliberately. He is always having snide comments about 'western freedom and democracy'.

Bet he would like to stay under Xi or maybe he already is.

I mean....he's Indonesian so he's neither under Xi, nor does he live under the west.

 

[africanspur]

What's antisemitic about pulling down posters on public property? I went on the twitter feed and 3 of the top 5 tweets are about posters being pulled down.

I have to say....it's not anti semitic and you shouldn't lose your job over it but it's an incredibly cnuty thing to do.

The person doing it isn't a good person and I really wonder what exactly is going through their minds? And what they think they're doing?

 

[That_Bloke]

What's antisemitic about pulling down posters on public property? I went on the twitter feed and 3 of the top 5 tweets are about posters being pulled down.

It's not antisemitic but a braindead and heartless thing to do.

 

[The United]

I mean....he's Indonesian so he's neither under Xi, nor does he live under the west.

Doesn't mean he doesn't want to live under Xi. You just have to look at his history of posting.

 

[africanspur]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-two-by-israel-huwara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

‘We can’t even cross the city’: the Palestinian town split in two by Israel

Residents of Huwara, in the West Bank, cannot cross the main street without permission and must detour for miles to reach other neighbourhoods

While all eyes are on Gaza, let's not forget about the West Bank, where thankfully Palestinians are living high quality, dignified lives because of a lack of Hamas.

A particularly peaceful comment by a government minister:

Earlier this year, Smotrich went even further still, speaking at a financial conference. “I think the village of Huwara needs to be wiped out. I think the state of Israel should do it,” he said.

Can't wait to be accused of virtue signalling or have someone patronisingly tell me that yes the USA should criticise this, while providing no reason why they don't and ignoring the fact that Israel continues to receive unconditional support.

 

[Halftrack]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-two-by-israel-huwara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

‘We can’t even cross the city’: the Palestinian town split in two by Israel

Residents of Huwara, in the West Bank, cannot cross the main street without permission and must detour for miles to reach other neighbourhoods

While all eyes are on Gaza, let's not forget about the West Bank, where thankfully Palestinians are living high quality, dignified lives because of a lack of Hamas.

A particularly peaceful comment by a government minister:



Can't wait to be accused of virtue signalling or have someone patronisingly tell me that yes the USA should criticise this, while providing no reason why they don't and ignoring the fact that Israel continues to receive unconditional support.

Wow, justifying October 7th much?

 

[Real Name]

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The “only democracy…”

Parallels with Nazi Germany are striking.

 

[The Corinthian]

I have to say....it's not anti semitic and you shouldn't lose your job over it but it's an incredibly cnuty thing to do.

The person doing it isn't a good person and I really wonder what exactly is going through their minds? And what they think they're doing?

It's not antisemitic but a braindead and heartless thing to do.

I agree with you both. Unnecessarily provocative yes, but it’s not antisemitic.

 

[nickm]

That's not an answer, that's just you waffling to avoid giving one.

Not at all, it's me saying "it's complicated". Because it is. And it is me saying I am uncertain and doubtful and I am trying to work it out.

Israel CAN legally target hospitals, schools etc under certain specific circumstances. That is the horrific truth. I am prepared to accept that, say, if Hamas has a fcuking base under a hospital, then that can make the hospital a legitimate military target. (Some allege the Al Shifa hospital has exactly that, I dunno if that's true or not.). It's heart breaking, but that's what the law says. And I am prepared to accept that some, maybe even the majority, of Israel's response, could fall into that category if looked at soberly through a legal lens.

Now are ALL Israel's activities in line with international law at the moment? Again I don't know for sure but I suspect not. If not, those acts need to be identified, condemned and the perpetrators brought to justice.

But rather than actually try to work this nightmare out, and maybe think for yourself a bit, instead you can just simplemindedly rant about genocide instead. I guess that sure feels better.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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[Iker Quesadillas]

Not at all, it's me saying "it's complicated". Because it is. And it is me saying I am uncertain and doubtful and I am trying to work it out.

Israel CAN legally target hospitals, schools etc under certain specific circumstances. That is the horrific truth. I am prepared to accept that, say, if Hamas has a fcuking base under a hospital, then that can make the hospital a legitimate military target. (Some allege the Al Shifa hospital has exactly that, I dunno if that's true or not.). It's heart breaking, but that's what the law says. And I am prepared to accept that some, maybe even the majority, of Israel's response, could fall into that category if looked at soberly through a legal lens.

Now are ALL Israel's activities in line with international law at the moment? Again I don't know for sure but I suspect not. If not, those acts need to be identified, condemned and the perpetrators brought to justice.

But rather than actually try to work this nightmare out, and maybe think for yourself a bit, instead you can just simplemindedly rant about genocide instead. I guess that sure feels better.

There are lots of bad and dubious things you can accept "soberly through a legal lens."

 

[Smores]

Not at all, it's me saying "it's complicated". Because it is. And it is me saying I am uncertain and doubtful and I am trying to work it out.

Israel CAN legally target hospitals, schools etc under certain specific circumstances. That is the horrific truth. I am prepared to accept that, say, if Hamas has a fcuking base under a hospital, then that can make the hospital a legitimate military target. (Some allege the Al Shifa hospital has exactly that, I dunno if that's true or not.). It's heart breaking, but that's what the law says. And I am prepared to accept that some, maybe even the majority, of Israel's response, could fall into that category if looked at soberly through a legal lens.

Now are ALL Israel's activities in line with international law at the moment? Again I don't know for sure but I suspect not. If not, those acts need to be identified, condemned and the perpetrators brought to justice.

But rather than actually try to work this nightmare out, and maybe think for yourself a bit, instead you can just simplemindedly rant about genocide instead. I guess that sure feels better.

Is the legal view more important than the moralistic view here?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

But the credibility of these testimonies is inexistent… Only totalitarian regimes uses these stunts.

The israeli propaganda machine is sinking to ridiculous lows under this unbelievably incompetent far right government. We’ve seen Israel fabricate lies before (the first Qana massacre, Lebanon 96) but they used to be good and to work hard on it and make a convincing case...

New head of Hasbara:

 

[do.ob]

Is the legal view more important than the moralistic view here?

Is there a singular moralistic view?

 

[Kaos]

Is there a singular moralistic view?

I mean you'd think not bombing hospitals, bakeries, ambulance convoys and refugee camps would fit under the 'not a heartless cnut' moralistic view.

 

[The Corinthian]

Is there a singular moralistic view?

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I wonder…!

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Is there a singular moralistic view?

No, but each person has their own moral view, which they can communicate.

In this case it does read like the poster doesn't want to communicate theirs, and is redirecting the conversation elsewhere.

 

[nickm]

No, but each person has their own moral view, which they can communicate.

In this case it does read like the poster doesn't want to communicate theirs, and is redirecting the conversation elsewhere.

Not at all. I think like all states Israel has a right to defend itself, and horrible, horrible things happen in war. But there are rules for how wars are fought, so that within these horrible events, some moral distinctions can be made, and those distinctions matter.

I find the bombings horrible, the deaths terrible. Enough of that has been said in this thread, I have nothing to useful to add to it.

 

[Kaos]

Not at all. I think like all states Israel has a right to defend itself, and horrible, horrible things happen in war. But there are rules for how wars are fought, so these distinctions matter.

I find the bombing horrible, the deaths terrible. Enough of that has been said in this thread, I have nothing to useful to add to it.

In your view is Israel conducting its operation with the view to minimalise civilian casualties and the scale of human suffering?