Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Giggsyking]

There is that.

Here's the full quote...

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from 12:00, His stance is much more better than any other republican, and most of the democrats.

 

[flameinthesun]

I think if the objective was peace for Israel and Israelis, they could get halfway there by working with the PA and having an agreed solution for the WB specifically. The optics would all be in Israel's favour as well if they were seen to be working well with the PA, and not Hamas, don't you think?

The reason I don't believe a two state solution, or even a peaceful one for Palestinians has ever been on the cards for Israel is because of their conduct in the WB.

Agree with you on Bibi but I don't think things would change if he wasn't on the scene either although he's undoubtedly made a difficult situation 10x worse.

Your first paragraph is absolutely correct. Any discussion saying that if Hamas wasn't in Gaza that Israel would pursue a 2 state solution falls flat when you point to the West Bank. If you want to see how Israel would treat a Gaza without Hamas, you literally have an example in the West Bank. Those arguing in favour of Israel know this though, which makes any argument regarding Israel pursuing a true 2 state solution disingenuous.

 

[Kaos]

from 12:00, His stance is much more better than any other republican, and most of the democrats.

Are you sure you're quoting the right bit? All I'm hearing is the same usual GOP Mortal Kombat esque bravado of 'FINISH THEM!' without any real input into the broader situation.

 

[Giggsyking]

It is a wise assumption that is grounded in truth given that Hamas leadership continue to deny Israel's very right to exist. So not only would they never be allowed to be in charge of a nation neighboring Israel, but even if such a delusionally far fetched scenario were to somehow happen, they would by definition not do so peacefully. All of which is of course a moot point given they are about to go out of business.

They same can be said about the Palestinian's trust in an Israeli state when their leaders show maps of their land being stolen and the indigenous people of the land exterminated.

Not that they can, but hypothetically speaking, do the the Palestinians have the right to remove the Israeli state and insure that a government in the state next door is nothing like the past terrorists governments in the past 7 decades ?

Or this only work one side?

 

[Giggsyking]

Are you sure you're quoting the right bit? All I'm hearing is the same usual GOP Mortal Kombat esque bravado of 'FINISH THEM!' without any real input into the broader situation.

The argument was if Trump was any better, listening to those above, makes Trumps comment looks more balanced.

 

[Raoul]

They same can be said about the Palestinian's trust in an Israeli state when their leaders show maps of their land being stolen and the indigenous people of the land exterminated.

Not that they can, but hypothetically speaking, do the the Palestinians have the right to remove the Israeli state and insure that a government in the state next door is nothing like the past terrorists governments in the past 7 decades ?

Or this only work one side?

Point taken, but as mentioned above, this isn't an equal relationship. The power rests solely with the Israeli side, so any movement towards negotiations has to be built atop assurances they couldn't be attacked by a future Palestinian state. This is why Hamas being involved in any of this was never going to result in anything other than their own demise.

 

[Kaos]

The argument was if Trump was any better, listening to those above, makes Trumps comment looks more balanced.

Ah fair, I misunderstood.

 

[Raoul]

The argument was if Trump was any better, listening to those above, makes Trumps comment looks more balanced.

This could also be applied to Democrats. Biden's policy is probably not very far off from what the R candidates are saying. He just doesn't talk about it as bombastically as they do.

 

[Giggsyking]

Point taken, but as mentioned above, this isn't an equal relationship. The power rests solely with the Israeli side, so any movement towards negotiations has to be built atop assurances they couldn't be attacked by a future Palestinian state. This is why Hamas being involved in any of this was never going to result in anything other than their own demise.

Things should not be left to the Israelis and the Palestinians alone to solve it. In the past 2 decades there have not been enough international effort to solve the conflict. The US has the biggest responsibility to take a step backward from the blind support of Israel and act more in line with the interest of both the Palestinian and Israeli people and try to reach a just solution to the conflict.

If we say it starts with excluding Hamas and people like Netanyahu. And if Hamas is out of the picture say by next year, do you think anything will change in the lives of the Palestinians in Gaza or the WB? I really doubt that.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'm not really sure why we're taking it as a given that Hamas is dead. It's probably going to happen, but it hasn't actually happened yet.

 

[MDFC Manager]

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Misfiring Hamas bullets

 

[JPRouve]

If we take a step back from the current terror attack and the reaction from Israel. It's important to acknowledge two things Hamas, palestinian religious extremists, the israeli far right and religious zionists are core obstacles for peace and they all prevent the existence of a peace process whether it is a single state or two state solution. They all need to be ostracized.

Now I believe that several things should happen and that the peace process should be started without any actual agreement between Israel and whoever currently represent Palestine simply because at this point in time neither can or should trust the other, both should demonstrate good faith for a long time before seating around the table and negotiate a final solution.

On the Israel front, in theory it shouldn't be too difficult. They need to apply normal moral and legal principles when it comes to israelis that commit crimes, if an israeli commit a crime against a palestinian he can't get away easily by just rushing to the closest checkpoint into Israel. If Israel is a democracy and a place where righteouness is valued then there is no obstable to the end of this apartheid. Their occupation should be benevolent instead of being oppressive.

On the Palestinian side elections needs to be organized whether Abbas wants it or not and Hamas should be banned forever, ideally a third party(the UN) would organize those elections and maybe a system of guardianship from an international organization should be implemented because from what I understand the reason Hamas would have any chance to be elected is due to the known and obvious high level of corruption within Fatah, that issue was a big topic in the mid 2000s and as far as I know nothing has changed or at least the image of Fatah and by extention the PA is still tainted.

The other thing which is very important for peace is that people need to have something to lose and the best thing to put in the balance is a nice, soft and comfortable life. The international community should try to increase the level of life in palestine and probably also in other neighboring countries.

 

[The Corinthian]

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[2cents]

Another Nasrallah speech coming tomorrow after today’s escalation on the Lebanese border - https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-kills-more-hezbollah-fighters-border-lebanon

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Amidst all the shit that's been going on, and trying to avoid watching images and videos as best as I can,
and trying to somehow go on with life and do my job as a social worker and keeping with touch with friends and family...

[imagine for a moment what it's like to meet someone new and kissing them and sleeping with them,
knowing that at the exact same time some kid must have died, a building got demolished, a hostage is somewhere beneath the earh...
How the feck do you go about that? :/]


I browsed Youtube for football related content,
and somehow came across this little video,
that hurt me much more than any other video I saw from the Israeli side...

I don't know, I wanted to share it here. Don't mean it as point scoring.
Doesn't justify nor negate anything that happens in Gaza. just plain sad.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

There is that.

Here's the full quote...

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I am forced to think if Trump was in charge may be so many children wouldn't have been killed. Quite likely not but this is more balanced than Biden for sure.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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When people say cancel culture doesn't exist

 

[Giggsyking]

Another Nasrallah speech coming tomorrow after today’s escalation on the Lebanese border - https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-kills-more-hezbollah-fighters-border-lebanon

The clashes already started. Yesterday Israel bombed a large weapon stash and today Hizbollah attacked with rockets a military base in Israel ( in the video above) Hizbollah said 7 members have been killed by the Israeli attack.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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Just so bleak. The moral vacuum is insane.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[The Corinthian]

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[Iker Quesadillas]

An exchange from October 31st, less than two weeks ago:

What adjective do you use to describe IDF officials who authorize the bombing of hospitals, refugee camps and other civilian infrastructure?

Has anyone authorized the bombing of a hospital?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Things should not be left to the Israelis and the Palestinians alone to solve it. In the past 2 decades there have not been enough international effort to solve the conflict. The US has the biggest responsibility to take a step backward from the blind support of Israel and act more in line with the interest of both the Palestinian and Israeli people and try to reach a just solution to the conflict.

If we say it starts with excluding Hamas and people like Netanyahu. And if Hamas is out of the picture say by next year, do you think anything will change in the lives of the Palestinians in Gaza or the WB? I really doubt that.

The USA are providing 14 billion dollars per year support for Israel. They are key to any peace.

 

[Beachryan]

The USA are providing 14 billion dollars per year support for Israel. They are key to any peace.

That's the recent package being discussed in congress. 2022 was 3bn as far as I can tell.

Israel's GDP is just shy of 500bn.

 

[Frosty]

Israel has revised down the number of people killed during Hamas's 7 October attack to "about 1,200" from the earlier 1,400 figure.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Lior Haiat, said the revised number was because many bodies were not immediately identified after the attack, and "now we think those belong to terrorists... not Israeli casualties".

 

[Frosty]

The number of people killed in Gaza by Israeli military actions since the start of the war on 7 October has risen to 11,078, including 4,506 children, according to the Hamas-run health ministry on Friday. Another 27,490 Palestinians in Gaza have been wounded, it said.

 

[Pintu]

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[2cents]

This is a decent, though lengthy, summary from Adam Shatz of the various elements that have produced the current situation. Well worth the read in full:

Vengeful Pathologies

 

[united_99]

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That’s at least much much more than anyone of the extremely coward and hypocritical leaders of US, Germany or UK have come out with.
They keep telling the same lies “right to defence taking international humanitarian law into account” while Israel keeps bombing civilians, hospitals, mosques, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, medical staff and journalists.

 

[JagUTD]

I really don't like to resort to Piers Morgan, but there's another interviewee one should listen to.

He's a Palestinian doctor who not only lost 25 members of his family since 7/10 but also three daughters and a niece in the 2009 Gaza War, when an Israeli tank shelled his home. Even then, he's still an advocate of peace and reconciliation, and an example of what it means to live as a Palestinian in Gaza.

"Listen to us, don't hear about us".

These are the voices that need to be amplified.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Israel were an apartheid state and against a 2 state solution decades before Hamas was created, Hamas is the least supported group among palestinians and Israel is partially led by religious and zionist extremists who on average kill and injure more palestinians than palestinians kill or injure israeli.

I don't know if it answers your questions but that's the wider context.

What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? 1948? Surely not. 1967?

 

[Halftrack]

What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? 1948? Surely not. 1967?

This is what an insincere question looks like.

 

[Mihajlovic]

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Tons of tweets out there claiming it was Hamas that started shooting at civilians to prevent them from leaving. The same Hamas that’s not allowing civilians to seek shelter in 500km of tunnels.

 

[Mihajlovic]

This is what an insincere question looks like.

What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? It cannot possibly be 1948. Was it after 1967? 1973?

 

[JagUTD]

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Action like this will also be key to ending the wider conflict.

 

[berbatrick]

burn baby burn

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[Halftrack]

What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? It cannot possibly be 1948. Was it after 1967? 1973?

It was all of those.

 

[berbatrick]

The number of people killed in Gaza by Israeli military actions since the start of the war on 7 October has risen to 11,078, including 4,506 children, according to the Hamas-run health ministry on Friday. Another 27,490 Palestinians in Gaza have been wounded, it said.

oooh almost 10x, exciting!

 

[berbatrick]

What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? 1948? Surely not. 1967?

1923