Good post.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Douglas Murray
You should be banned just for quoting him.
Just to add some context to Norman concertation camp remarks, many western politicians who dare to stand against the brutal cancelation of Israel call Gaza a concentration camp or an open air prison.
In fact David Cameron who is good friend of Israel, said once Israel turned Gaza into a Prison Camp.
But Yes, lets quote Murray.
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How is that spot on rebuttal? Douglas Murray could do a word by word rebuttal with Norman, but he’s turned down debating him. He knows his intellect and intellectual capability will get found out by being on the same debate as Norman.
He really is an odious scrote, if it were upto him there would be an expulsion of Muslims in the UK.Douglas Murray
You should be banned just for quoting him.
Just to add some context to Norman concertation camp remarks, many western politicians who dare to stand against the brutal cancelation of Israel call Gaza a concentration camp or an open air prison.
In fact David Cameron who is good friend of Israel, said once Israel turned Gaza into a Prison Camp.
But Yes, lets quote Murray.
I wonder if this is done consciously or is something that just gets into journalists' minds naturally by osmosis. Yesterday in the evening news in portugal the presenter used in the same sentence "israeli children" and "palestinian minors" when talking about the hostage exchange. I doubt anyone is putting any pressure on portuguese journalists who have an almost insignificant audience, so they must absorb this from somewhere.
Ireland.
Hamas lost the right to get the benefit of the doubt on that, on Oct 7th, IMO.
Finkelstein is one of the calmest interviewees I’ve seen, especially given the topic he talks about… lays out specific, factual details to explain his responses.
There’s a quite recent interview with him where he quotes the use of “concentration camp” from people previous to him (tried to find it, can’t at moment). Plenty of people with a much better understanding than us have used it.
And Murray wasn’t a rebuttal. That xxxx Morgan asked him after Finkelstein had gone and Murray (another useless xxxx with a long history of clear bias, some would call racism) piled in based on his decades of knowledge and first hand experiences. Oh wait….
Really? Do you think he'd be doing the raping? Or just the baby killing?
Interested in whether you think the conditions explain that too.
Brilliant post. Like Hillary he's a war monger. A senile one at that.
It's very conscious.
While the world is very much fecked up and "might is right" rules, there are still limits. There's a deliberate intent at dehumanizing the Palestinians and attempt to minimize the sheer destruction and blatant disregard for palestinian lives from a big chunk of the western media and governments. As much as they can get away with. Not because of a particular hate towards Palestinians but because of a real fear of displeasing Israel or pass as antisemitic.
We're in a unique situation where every possible excuse is found and used to justify the wife beater's behavior.
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I think the source for a lot of these stories are Israeli government officials, they use this wording and the media uncritically accepts it.
For example, this tweet got massive numbers:
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The Guardian quickly changed the text so that both sets are referred to as "children."
Do you use language this emotive when describing Israel's actions? Or does that not suit the narrative you'rr trying to help establish, maybe?
He did say when more events came to light he faced a moral quandry. But yes I do give him the benefit of the doubt, not only because he's the child of two concentration camp survivors, but primarily because he's dedicated his life as a scholar on the issue, and has always offered a raw fact-based, meticulous overview of the conflict and has rightly cemented himself as an expert. He's also one of the few who's asked the inconvenient yet poignant question as to why and how this pressure cooker in Gaza exploded, instead of choosing to pile in on the condemnation without exploring the backdrop or context as to how it happened.
Contrast that to someone like Douglas Murray who you've just referenced. The man is nothing but a bigoted hack who's built his entire career on racist soundbites, perpetuating bigoted tropes like the great replacement theory, and the bulk of his arguments over the years essentially condense down to 'Muslims bad, Islam bad'. The fact he's refused to debate Professor Finkelstein on the issue only further signifies that since it appears a fact-based approach to such a debate would severely expose him as being out of his depth outside the comforts of his bigoted, soundbite-ridden echo chambers.
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Do I think if he was born and raised into those conditions that he would view the Israelis as his enemies and want or take out violence on them? Then yes, there is a chance that he would come out like that, the same as there's a chance he'd not and instead end up dying going to pick up some bread.
Regarding your second point, maybe, if the Israeli army can kill children by the thousands, inflict terror onto innocent civilians and they've come from an idyllic country in comparison to Gaza, then of course there will be people capable of doing the same as the Israelli army and settlers.
Its sarcasm. I can't take the idea seriously that "conditions" explain the specifics of what happened. Sorry.
And it's not emotive language, it's the actual facts.
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And the link to that “story” was also tweeted by? Drum roll……
https://x.com/douglaskmurray/status/1728009978164793796?s=61&t=ZvGzfV2Qafn11jKrPfufuA
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New York Times: Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed At Historic Rate
Israel has cast the deaths of civilians in the Gaza Strip as a regrettable but unavoidable part of modern conflict, pointing to the heavy human toll from military campaigns the United States itself once waged in Iraq and Syria. But a review of past conflicts and interviews with casualty and weapons experts suggest that Israel’s assault is different. While wartime death tolls will never be exact, experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza shows that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century. People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html
Israel has cast the deaths of civilians in the Gaza Strip as a regrettable but unavoidable part of modern conflict, pointing to the heavy human toll from military campaigns the United States itself once waged in Iraq and Syria. But a review of past conflicts and interviews with casualty and weapons experts suggest that Israel’s assault is different. While wartime death tolls will never be exact, experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza shows that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century. People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html
Douglas Murray is a moron and gets almost nothing right in that segment.
This has apparently been resolved now, thanks to the Egyptians and Qataris leaning on Sinwar.
The reality is that the next few days will be nervy. But, this is unfortunately what can happen while trying to get hostages out of harm way. Be patient, be mature, show resolve and get these people out. 20 people will soon be out, 13 Israelis and 7 foreign nationals. It would be a good outcome, despite the drama earlier today. On the other side, aid will be sent to Gaza, which is also crucial.
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From what I've read, there appear to be no negotiations between both sides to extend the pause in fighting in exchange for more hostages released, so the fighting should resume sometime early next week. Sinwar can't afford to allow too many Israeli hostages to go, otherwise he won't have any leverage to stop them from going after Hamas targets in the south and obliterating the tunnel networks.
What was the point of this negotiated deal then? Breathing room?
Have the second exchanges been completed yet?
Thanks to the lovely Israeli "administrative detention" law, there's a feckton of Palestinians in Israeli jails who can be indefinitely detained without any formal charge, Gitmo style, regardless of their age or how flimsy the charges against them are (throwing stones is enough to get you in a lot of trouble for a very long time). It's one of the strongest symbols of injustice and Apartheid rules applied to the Palestinians.
Getting them out is always a "victory". It might sound silly and counter-productive, especially when you look at the price paid, but when you're confronted to so much injustice while the world's willingly turning a blind eye, you just can't understate how significant it is to get them out. It's impossible for about 99.9% of the posters here to understand the mindset of the colonized and how much every single little victory, no matter how costly, represents for them a little step towards freedom.
Breathing room doesn't play any significant role. Any Hamas member still present in the Gaza strip has already forfeited their life. The moment the massacre was carried out, they already knew that they were on borrowed time. It's all about victims and casualties, the more the better. Because without them, no one, absolutely no one, would ever take a look at the suffering of the Palestinians and think "Ah crap, we might really have to do something about it".
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JOE BIDEN MOVES TO LIFT NEARLY EVERY RESTRICTION ON ISRAEL’S ACCESS TO U.S. WEAPONS STOCKPILE
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/25/biden-israel-weapons-stockpile-arms-gaza/
With the WRSA-I, Biden is looking to lift virtually all the meaningful restrictions on the stockpile and the transfer of its arms to Israel, with plans to remove limitations to obsolete or surplus weapons, waive an annual spending cap on replenishing the stockpile, remove weapon-specific restrictions, and curtail congressional oversight. All of the changes in the Biden budget plan would be permanent, except for lifting the spending cap, which is limited to the 2024 fiscal year.
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/25/biden-israel-weapons-stockpile-arms-gaza/
With the WRSA-I, Biden is looking to lift virtually all the meaningful restrictions on the stockpile and the transfer of its arms to Israel, with plans to remove limitations to obsolete or surplus weapons, waive an annual spending cap on replenishing the stockpile, remove weapon-specific restrictions, and curtail congressional oversight. All of the changes in the Biden budget plan would be permanent, except for lifting the spending cap, which is limited to the 2024 fiscal year.
Trump will be worse though!
Yes! Exactly what the current situation is asking for.