Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[Silva]

Hellboy has achieved the not-inconsiderable feat of making Fearless appear moderate. Well done.

It's pretty astonishing.

 

[Hellboy]

JustAfan, you have an oyster's intellect, give it up already. You give zilch to the debate, go drink some coke and shut the feck up.

 

[berbatrick]

You're shouting into an empty room. He has blocked you.
Still, it's fun to see.

 

[Raoul]

Hellboy has achieved the not-inconsiderable feat of making Fearless appear moderate. Well done.

 

[sun_tzu]

JustAfan, you have an oyster's intellect, give it up already. You give zilch to the debate, go drink some coke and shut the feck up.

Does that add anything to the debate either?

 

[Fearless]

This thread demands a bit of Pat:

 

[Hellboy]

Hellboy has achieved the not-inconsiderable feat of making Fearless appear moderate. Well done.

So backing a group of people who resist and fight for their dignity and their right to live in THEIR land is the same as backing a group of racialist warmongers who practice colonization and ethnic cleansing ?

 

[Silva]

So backing a group of people who resist and fight for their dignity and their right to live in THEIR land is the same as backing a group of racialist warmongers who practice colonization and ethnic cleansing ?

No, that bit's fine and we're with you. But when you start all the bollocks about what the Quran says or when you compare Israel to Nazi's.

 

[sun_tzu]

So backing a group of people who resist and fight for their dignity and their right to live in THEIR land is the same as backing a group of racialist warmongers who practice colonization and ethnic cleansing ?

Not at all - I think people are just pointing out that your doing quite a bad job of it and even people who broadly agree with you are facepalming when they read your posts

 

[berbatrick]

So backing a group of people who resist and fight for their dignity and their right to live in THEIR land is the same as backing a group of racialist warmongers who practice colonization and ethnic cleansing ?

No it isn't.

However, backing a state which commits war crimes is easily in the same league as repeatedly comparing that state to amongst the worst and most widespread examples of human evil that has ever exited.

 

[Silva]

This thread demands a bit of Pat:

What the actual feck, that guy is mental. He must be watching different news channels to me because his summary of them is literally not what happens.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I thought we were in for a quiet day...sighs

 

[Count Orduck]

Is someone actually using the Qu'uran as justification in a political argument? For feck's sake

 

[sun_tzu]

Is someone actually using the Qu'uran as justification in a political argument? For feck's sake

you cant simply dismiss using the bible / qu'uran to back up an argument - its very logical to do so in fact

Spoiler: Proof

 

[Hellboy]

Not at all - I think people are just pointing out that your doing quite a bad job of it and even people who broadly agree with you are facepalming when they read your posts

Well thanks to these facepalmers and their mentors, the Palestinians situation haven't been worse in history.

And like I said and I'll say it again, again and again : Nazis racialism and the "chooseness" of the Zionist political class that have been killing Palestinians for 66 years are highly similar.

 

[Silva]

Only to the extent where anyone killing anyone else is similar. Jews and Palestinians are allowed to have babies together, for a start, which completely undermines the comparison.

 

[Hellboy]

Is someone actually using the Qu'uran as justification in a political argument? For feck's sake

Never said that anywhere. It was a response to Fearless's claim that Jews literally own the Holy Land according to Quran, and well it could not be as far from the truth.

 

[sun_tzu]

Well thanks to these facepalmers and their mentors, the Palestinians situation haven't been worse in history.

And like I said and I'll say it again, again and again : Nazis racialism and the "chooseness" of the Zionist political class that have been killing Palestinians for 66 years are highly similar.

Yep - your doing a terrible job

Spoiler: Godwin - Its the law

https://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

 

[2cents]

Let's try to solve this problem. If you were in charge, what policy steps would you take to once and for all solve the Israeli-Palestinian situation in a manner that is acceptable to both sides ? Be specific and list why each step would work for both parties.

If you don't mind I'll take a stab at this @Raoul. It's not necessarily a path to a settlement but rather a way to potentially break the current stalemate and reframe the terms of the debate. Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

First of all, while external intervention has a role to play, a settlement cannot be imposed by an external power IMO. One of the lessons of the last decade or so is that foreign intervention in this region tends to create more problems than it solves.

Secondly, the Israelis are not going to be the ones to alter the status quo, since it suits their interests and, despite the plight of places like Sderot, the majority of Israeli Jews are able to live a life in which 'the conflict' is not an everyday reality but rather an irritation which breaks out into something more serious every now and again. A place like Tel Aviv exists in a bubble ('The Bubble' is an Israeli nickname for the city) whereby the reality of the situation only a few km's away can feel like it's playing out in a different continent.

Israel is in a position of military power from which no state ever really concedes anything. It's not exceptional in this respect, and it would be unprecedented for them to withdraw from as strategically important a territory as the West Bank or Golan Heights, especially with the examples of the withdrawals from South Lebanon and Gaza fresh in mind (you can add Sinai to that as well now that the security situation there has deteriorated since 2011).

What this means is that the onus is on the Palestinians to change things on the ground. This might not be morally fair, but it's the reality. Can they do it? Since the late 1960s, they have tried through a combination of hijackings, military operations, suicide attacks, rockets, etc, accompanied by an international propaganda campaign which has succeeded in keeping the world's focus on their plight and winning international sentiment to the cause. The campaign, however, has also drawn the world's condemnation, especially when Israeli civilians have been targeted, and it has not been successful in winning any meaningful concessions from the Israelis. In many ways, it has only served to harden the Israeli stance - Israeli Jews are never more united than when they are under attack.

What is required then is a way for the Palestinians to play upon the divisions within Israeli society the way the Israelis have successful done with their own internal divisions. They need to somehow make Israeli Jews face the choice of what kind of country they want Israel to be. The way to do it is to launch a mass civil rights campaign, a movement which would include Arab citizens of Israel, West Bank Arabs, Gazan Arabs, and the Palestinian diaspora. The campaign would call on Israel to grant the Palestinians Israeli citizenship and accept them as equal citizens within the boundaries of mandate Palestine. The campaign would have to remain peaceful, even in the face of the inevitable Israeli crackdown which would likely produce deaths. This is not because I agree with non-violence as a principle, but simply because violence has not worked so far (I'm aware that Palestinians protest non-violently every day, but the principle has yet to take root among any significant Palestinian political movement).

Repression of such a movement would likely bring an unprecedented type of international pressure to bear on Israel to decide one way or the other whether or not they want to keep the West Bank, particularly if the campaign remained peaceful in the face of deaths. The idea of granting the Palestinians Israeli citizenship would probably find some support among marginal types on both the Israeli far-left and far-right. But probably a vast majority of Israelis would favour withdrawal if it came down to a choice.

For the Palestinians, the benefits would be potentially enormous. Not only would they likely eventually win an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, the type of leadership that would emerge from such a movement would probably be far more representative and liberal than those who currently claim to represent the Palestinians.

There are many obstacles to anything like this happening. Obviously the Israeli leadership would attempt to derail it, playing on the divisions between West bankers and Gazans, etc. An even bigger problem would be that both Fatah and Hamas would be viciously opposed to the movement, correctly seeing it as a threat to their own stranglehold over Palestinian politics.

Perhaps a bigger question is whether Palestinian society is currently capable of generating such a movement. There would be many internal and external pressures against it, as the movement would have to involve some kind of 'normalisation' of relations with the Israeli public, something most advocates of the Palestinian cause are opposed to. Furthermore, current trends in the wider Arab and Islamic world don't seem particularly conducive to the successful creation of a civil rights movement.

However, there are some signs that something like this could emerge in the coming years. The 'March to the Borders' campaign of 2011 may well turn out to be a forerunner of the type of protests envisioned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israeli_border_demonstration). The BDS movement may have it within itself to move in this direction - one of its problems until now has been its lack of clear, unambiguous goals.

None of this is a guarantee of anything really. But as long as Palestinian politics are dominated by the likes of Fatah and Hamas, the status quo will remain the most attractive option for Israeli Jews and the international powers that count.

 

[Hellboy]

Yes the goldwin point precisely and the fact that holocaust is the crime of crimes and all that.

 

[holyland red]

If you don't mind I'll take a stab at this @Raoul. It's not necessarily a path to a settlement but rather a way to potentially break the current stalemate and reframe the terms of the debate. Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

First of all, while external intervention has a role to play, a settlement cannot be imposed by an external power IMO. One of the lessons of the last decade or so is that foreign intervention in this region tends to create more problems than it solves.

Secondly, the Israelis are not going to be the ones to alter the status quo, since it suits their interests and, despite the plight of places like Sderot, the majority of Israeli Jews are able to live a life in which 'the conflict' is not an everyday reality but rather an irritation which breaks out into something more serious every now and again. A place like Tel Aviv exists in a bubble ('The Bubble' is an Israeli nickname for the city) whereby the reality of the situation only a few km's away can feel like it's playing out in a different continent.

Israel is in a position of military power from which no state ever really concedes anything. It's not exceptional in this respect, and it would be unprecedented for them to withdraw from as strategically important a territory as the West Bank or Golan Heights, especially with the examples of the withdrawals from South Lebanon and Gaza fresh in mind (you can add Sinai to that as well now that the security situation there has deteriorated since 2011).

What this means is that the onus is on the Palestinians to change things on the ground. This might not be morally fair, but it's the reality. Can they do it? Since the late 1960s, they have tried through a combination of hijackings, military operations, suicide attacks, rockets, etc, accompanied by an international propaganda campaign which has succeeded in keeping the world's focus on their plight and winning international sentiment to the cause. The campaign, however, has also drawn the world's condemnation, especially when Israeli civilians have been targeted, and it has not been successful in winning any meaningful concessions from the Israelis. In many ways, it has only served to harden the Israeli stance - Israeli Jews are never more united than when they are under attack.

What is required then is a way for the Palestinians to play upon the divisions within Israeli society the way the Israelis have successful done with their own internal divisions. They need to somehow make Israeli Jews face the choice of what kind of country they want Israel to be. The way to do it is to launch a mass civil rights campaign, a movement which would include Arab citizens of Israel, West Bank Arabs, Gazan Arabs, and the Palestinian diaspora. The campaign would call on Israel to grant the Palestinians Israeli citizenship and accept them as equal citizens within the boundaries of mandate Palestine. The campaign would have to remain peaceful, even in the face of the inevitable Israeli crackdown which would likely produce deaths. This is not because I agree with non-violence as a principle, but simply because violence has not worked so far (I'm aware that Palestinians protest non-violently every day, but the principle has yet to take root among any significant Palestinian political movement).

Repression of such a movement would likely bring an unprecedented type of international pressure to bear on Israel to decide one way or the other whether or not they want to keep the West Bank, particularly if the campaign remained peaceful in the face of deaths. The idea of granting the Palestinians Israeli citizenship would probably find some support among marginal types on both the Israeli far-left and far-right. But probably a vast majority of Israelis would favour withdrawal if it came down to a choice.

For the Palestinians, the benefits would be potentially enormous. Not only would they likely eventually win an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, the type of leadership that would emerge from such a movement would probably be far more representative and liberal than those who currently claim to represent the Palestinians.

There are many obstacles to anything like this happening. Obviously the Israeli leadership would attempt to derail it, playing on the divisions between West bankers and Gazans, etc. An even bigger problem would be that both Fatah and Hamas would be viciously opposed to the movement, correctly seeing it as a threat to their own stranglehold over Palestinian politics.

Perhaps a bigger question is whether Palestinian society is currently capable of generating such a movement. There would be many internal and external pressures against it, as the movement would have to involve some kind of 'normalisation' of relations with the Israeli public, something most advocates of the Palestinian cause are opposed to. Furthermore, current trends in the wider Arab and Islamic world don't seem particularly conducive to the successful creation of a civil rights movement.

However, there are some signs that something like this could emerge in the coming years. The 'March to the Borders' campaign of 2011 may well turn out to be a forerunner of the type of protests envisioned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israeli_border_demonstration). The BDS movement may have it within itself to move in this direction - one of its problems until now has been its lack of clear, unambiguous goals.

None of this is a guarantee of anything really. But as long as Palestinian politics are dominated by the likes of Fatah and Hamas, the status quo will remain the most attractive option for Israeli Jews and the international powers that count.

With all due respect, the vast majority of Israelis would favour a withdrawal only if this is part of an agreed end to the conflict based on two nation states.

Oh, and the BDS movement has been pretty clear about its goals. I mean its leaders rather than Western youth joining it as if it was a youth movement.

 

[JustAFan]

Spoiler

If you don't mind I'll take a stab at this @Raoul. It's not necessarily a path to a settlement but rather a way to potentially break the current stalemate and reframe the terms of the debate. Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

First of all, while external intervention has a role to play, a settlement cannot be imposed by an external power IMO. One of the lessons of the last decade or so is that foreign intervention in this region tends to create more problems than it solves.

Secondly, the Israelis are not going to be the ones to alter the status quo, since it suits their interests and, despite the plight of places like Sderot, the majority of Israeli Jews are able to live a life in which 'the conflict' is not an everyday reality but rather an irritation which breaks out into something more serious every now and again. A place like Tel Aviv exists in a bubble ('The Bubble' is an Israeli nickname for the city) whereby the reality of the situation only a few km's away can feel like it's playing out in a different continent.

Israel is in a position of military power from which no state ever really concedes anything. It's not exceptional in this respect, and it would be unprecedented for them to withdraw from as strategically important a territory as the West Bank or Golan Heights, especially with the examples of the withdrawals from South Lebanon and Gaza fresh in mind (you can add Sinai to that as well now that the security situation there has deteriorated since 2011).

What this means is that the onus is on the Palestinians to change things on the ground. This might not be morally fair, but it's the reality. Can they do it? Since the late 1960s, they have tried through a combination of hijackings, military operations, suicide attacks, rockets, etc, accompanied by an international propaganda campaign which has succeeded in keeping the world's focus on their plight and winning international sentiment to the cause. The campaign, however, has also drawn the world's condemnation, especially when Israeli civilians have been targeted, and it has not been successful in winning any meaningful concessions from the Israelis. In many ways, it has only served to harden the Israeli stance - Israeli Jews are never more united than when they are under attack.

What is required then is a way for the Palestinians to play upon the divisions within Israeli society the way the Israelis have successful done with their own internal divisions. They need to somehow make Israeli Jews face the choice of what kind of country they want Israel to be. The way to do it is to launch a mass civil rights campaign, a movement which would include Arab citizens of Israel, West Bank Arabs, Gazan Arabs, and the Palestinian diaspora. The campaign would call on Israel to grant the Palestinians Israeli citizenship and accept them as equal citizens within the boundaries of mandate Palestine. The campaign would have to remain peaceful, even in the face of the inevitable Israeli crackdown which would likely produce deaths. This is not because I agree with non-violence as a principle, but simply because violence has not worked so far (I'm aware that Palestinians protest non-violently every day, but the principle has yet to take root among any significant Palestinian political movement).

Repression of such a movement would likely bring an unprecedented type of international pressure to bear on Israel to decide one way or the other whether or not they want to keep the West Bank, particularly if the campaign remained peaceful in the face of deaths. The idea of granting the Palestinians Israeli citizenship would probably find some support among marginal types on both the Israeli far-left and far-right. But probably a vast majority of Israelis would favour withdrawal if it came down to a choice.

For the Palestinians, the benefits would be potentially enormous. Not only would they likely eventually win an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, the type of leadership that would emerge from such a movement would probably be far more representative and liberal than those who currently claim to represent the Palestinians.

There are many obstacles to anything like this happening. Obviously the Israeli leadership would attempt to derail it, playing on the divisions between West bankers and Gazans, etc. An even bigger problem would be that both Fatah and Hamas would be viciously opposed to the movement, correctly seeing it as a threat to their own stranglehold over Palestinian politics.

Perhaps a bigger question is whether Palestinian society is currently capable of generating such a movement. There would be many internal and external pressures against it, as the movement would have to involve some kind of 'normalisation' of relations with the Israeli public, something most advocates of the Palestinian cause are opposed to. Furthermore, current trends in the wider Arab and Islamic world don't seem particularly conducive to the successful creation of a civil rights movement.

However, there are some signs that something like this could emerge in the coming years. The 'March to the Borders' campaign of 2011 may well turn out to be a forerunner of the type of protests envisioned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israeli_border_demonstration). The BDS movement may have it within itself to move in this direction - one of its problems until now has been its lack of clear, unambiguous goals.

None of this is a guarantee of anything really. But as long as Palestinian politics are dominated by the likes of Fatah and Hamas, the status quo will remain the most attractive option for Israeli Jews and the international powers that count.

Very good 2 cents, a good read. Not sure if it would really work or not, because of the nature of the conflict, but it was a good read.

Even from a position of power the people of Israel need to push for internal change as much as the Palestinian's do. They are going to have to brave enough to take the chance that they can find a way to live either as neighbors with a Palestinian State and/or as equals with Palestinians within the same state.

60+ years of conflict have built up obstacles that both sides are going to have to figure out a way around.

One thing that has struck me over the decades is how little the regional and international powers that have played roles in this conflict actually seem to care about the Palestinian people. Oh they have been and are those willing to use the conflict for their own political gains, willing to continue the conflict but unwilling to back any real solution. At times it has seemed that keeping the Palestinians stateless has been a goal of both sides, the conflict itself being too important politically.

On the day that the Israeli's and the Palestinians do eventually reach some kind of real agreement it will be interesting to see how much the allies of either side are then willing to invest in the solution whether it be a single state or two states. Either solution will require the investment of money to make them work. Who will do so?

 

[2cents]

With all due respect, the vast majority of Israelis would favour a withdrawal only if this is part of an agreed end to the conflict based on two nation states.

Oh, and the BDS movement has been pretty clear about its goals. I mean its leaders rather than Western youth joining it as if it was a youth movement.

Fair enough. This is just a lot of speculation on my part. Impossible to say how such a movement might play out.

I agree that the actual goals (in contrast to the officially stated goals) of the BDS leadership are pretty easy to discern - they want to replace the status quo with an Arab Palestinian state. I believe this is one of the reasons for the movement's limited successes, and why I cannot personally support it (another reason is the leadership's vicious demonization of Israeli society).

 

[sun_tzu]

Either solution will require the investment of money to make them work. Who will do so?

I suspect there will be a reluctance to do so as most people will sadly based on recent history expect any solution to fail - and financially backing the solution would seem to politically tie you in to its success / failure

 

[Nucks]

The conflict needs more people like you to bend over to Israel after 60+ years of colonization and terror until the last Palestinian dies.

If Israel was anything like Nazi Germany, the last Palestinian would have died in 1955 or so. Then they could have invaded Egypt, Syria and any other nearby state with Palestinian populations and cleaned them all out in a couple of years too!

I guess there is something behind the old German efficiency thing! Honestly, the efficiency is literally the ONLY difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. Right?

 

[holyland red]

If Israel was anything like Nazi Germany, the last Palestinian would have died in 1955 or so. Then they could have invaded Egypt, Syria and any other nearby state with Palestinian populations and cleaned them all out in a couple of years too!

I guess there is something behind the old German efficiency thing! Honestly, the efficiency is literally the ONLY difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. Right?

Well, the Jews are the new Nazis alright but their plans have failed because the Palestinians are fighting back... unlike the Jews...hmmm wait. This is getting a bit complicated.

 

[PedroMendez]

.

you are talking about a pipe dream. This conflict has gone on for 60 years. Today the conditions for lasting peace are far worse than in the past, so there is absolutely no reason to believe that a solution is anywhere near or realistic. This conflict needs a fundamental game changer to come to a solution. The most obvious one would be a shift in USA policy, but thats highly unlikely.
So nothing will change until the situation gets unbearable worse for one side, most likely the Palestinians. Considering that the suffering in Gaza is not even remotely enough to shake up both sides, the perspective is dire. I guess 10.000 to 100.000 of Palestinians have to die a miserable death before anyone realizes the madness of this conflict.

I am always baffled when politicians pretend that a solution is just one round of substantial negotiations away..... We had so many of them and every single one was a complete and utter failure. How long do you need to realize that another round in the peace process will change jack-shit?

 

[2cents]

you are talking about a pipe dream...so there is absolutely no reason to believe that a solution is anywhere near or realistic.

I haven't pretended otherwise, or talked in terms of a 'solution'. Personally I don't believe this will happen, I'm just speculating on how it might play out if it did.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I guess it needs both sides to swallow their pride and take the bull by the horns, as what happened with Egypt. The Palestinians agreeing to leave Israel alone if they get their bit of land to live on in peace and the the Israelis agreeing to leave the Palestinians alone on those little bits of land if they are left to live in peace. If they can then co-operate and trade with each other, like normal countries do, then may be there is a chance.

The problem, I suppose, is deciding about the little bit of land.

Also, they hate and mistrust each other, which is a bit of sticking point.

 

[Fearless]

Never said that anywhere. It was a response to Fearless's claim that Jews literally own the Holy Land according to Quran, and well it could not be as far from the truth.

Why you pulling back from this?

You, I and everybody knows that it's nigh on impossible and stupid to separate the religious components from this conflict.

If you - and your co-religionists - seriously believe that the Quran, in any way, influences (or has the last word on the crisis) then it really is the big elephant in the room. And yes, the same applies to my lot.

But to all the 'lets keep religion out of it brigade', that only makes it worse. As nuts as it is.

 

[Revan]

I don't care about your black lists. I read the book without knowing anything about the man, and I thought it was a brilliant read.

The people who do damage to the Palestinian cause are those who drop bombs, those you support and love, not Gilad.



Like it or not, there are a lot of similarities between Nazism & Zionism. Being taken seriously, especially by people like you, is actually very low on a priority list.

Er, no they aren't. In fact I struggle to see any similarity between innocent people dying and Nazi Germany - Israel at all. But then, innocent people die in many conflicts all over the world, in conflicts that aren't like Nazi Germany.

 

[Revan]

Hellboy has achieved the not-inconsiderable feat of making Fearless appear moderate. Well done.

 

[Cheesy]

I guess it needs both sides to swallow their pride and take the bull by the horns, as what happened with Egypt. The Palestinians agreeing to leave Israel alone if they get their bit of land to live on in peace and the the Israelis agreeing to leave the Palestinians alone on those little bits of land if they are left to live in peace. If they can then co-operate and trade with each other, like normal countries do, then may be there is a chance.

The problem, I suppose, is deciding about the little bit of land.

Also, they hate and mistrust each other, which is a bit of sticking point.

Unfortunately, even if they do come to an agreement, it'll probably come back up again. Some of the most extreme members of Hamas will probably continue to try to cause violence, which may lead to more retaliation from Israel where it's the innocent who suffer, which starts up the whole thing again.

 

[Raoul]

All this thread needs is a visit from Herman for some Biblical context.

 

[Revan]

All this thread needs is a visit from Herman for some Biblical context.

We need him to balance the thread, to be fair.

 

[penalty snot]

There's been a devastating misuse of the words "your" and "you're" over the last few pages.

 

[711]

The demographic of the US is inexorably changing, and their automatic support of Israel will be by no means guaranteed in the future.

Israel needs to make friends, and it looks to me that by the time they realise that it may be too late for them. I agree with you on that Dante, I too doubt whether it will end well for them.


I

 

[holyland red]

The concerns for Israel's future raised here are really heart-warming. US demographics, ME demographics and so on, might well make Israel face a harsh reality. I struggle to decide whether this is an objective analysis or plain wishful thinking, because the most concerned folk are those advocating Israel making friends by committing a national suicide.

No one has mentioned changing European demographics and how these could affect Israel's friend-making prospects. Quite fascinating that.

 

[Relevated]

Has there been a 'not in my name' video or an open letter signed by 120 scholars yet, regarding al aqsa?

 

[Fearless]

No one has mentioned changing European demographics and how these could affect Israel's friend-making prospects. Quite fascinating that.

There are 3 million Muslim votes up for grabs in the UK, only 280,000 Jewish ones.

Ed Milliband knows this.