It’s the players, not the manager

R'hllor

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Its not one thing or another, sometimes is combination of both, in our case, those who were building this squad, contract extentsions under them and clown fiesta on training pitch set us back to stone age stuck with bunch of prick players (most of them) that have no hunger and on a fat contracts producing feck all, they living a life while we losing our shit and typing same shit every day on this forum.
 

Telsim

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Ten Hag will fail if the entire squad isn't replaced within two years. The morale is below rock bottom. The ambition and pride are completely nonexistent. Mentality is pitiful. The footballing quality is subpar. A lot of these players are not top table material. This is definitely the worst footballing squad I have seen, and not just at Manchester United. It's beyond saving. It's not something you fix, not the least over 3 months. It's something you replace completely.
 

Ruud89

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Our net spend on transfers under Ole had been the most from all the other PL clubs but yet none of our players would get into City and Liverpool's team.

None of these are Ralf's players and they are deliberately not following his instructions. What is he supposed to do?
 

Dansk

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I'm at the point now where I feel like it must be the fundamental club culture. For almost a decade now, across five different managers and basically three different squads, things have been mostly the same. It doesn't seem realistic that the blame can be tied to either the players or the manager. At this point, of course, the players have been completely soured and lost faith in the whole thing, so I'm not even very surprised that they're being "toxic." If everything was total chaos and non-stop failure at my workplace, I don't think I'd be going to work with enthusiasm and determination. Manchester United F.C. has become a toxic workplace environment, and nobody can thrive under that.

A lot can contribute to this. I've got experience analyzing and untangling TWE (Toxic Workplace Environments), and it's almost never as simple as "the staff are cnuts" or "the boss is incompetent." It'll be something that permeates the whole club. I'll point to such things as the fact that until very recently, regular staff at the club weren't paid a living wage. If you worked as, say, a cook or maintenance worker or whatever at MUFC, it paid less than a job at fecking McDonald's. It was expected that you would see it as a privilege to work for the club and do it for a pittance. And you wouldn't necessarily think that the feelings of the cafeteria staff has much of an impact on player performances, but these are the people they interact with day to day. These are the faces they see when they go to work. They're in that environment, and if the workplace environment is full of people who don't feel very good about it, it affects everything.

Contrast this to reports of City (and probably many other top clubs) who go out of their way to foster positivity at all levels of the club. If you play for a club where everyone loves to be, from the manager and players down to the cafeteria staff and kitmen, there won't be this cloud of negativity surrounding your job. And nobody is immune to the effects such a thing has on the subconscious. These players, who are often very young, are very much affected by the general mood and atmosphere of their workplace. These are young men, often in their early twenties, who are extremely susceptible to emotional influences, for much the same reason that there's a home team advantage because your fans are cheering you on while you play.

We all know that things have been a circus at the club for years. We were the last PL club to start paying a living wage, which I think we started doing just last year. I doubt the everyday workers all greeted the players with smiles and good vibes in the morning. The owners are parasitic businessmen who hijacked the club against its will and installed their Wall Street cronies in positions throughout the hierarchy, and leech money out of the club, money that the players are earning for them. That must surely affect the pride and joy of playing for United.
 

Tango80

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I'm at the point now where I feel like it must be the fundamental club culture. For almost a decade now, across five different managers and basically three different squads, things have been mostly the same. It doesn't seem realistic that the blame can be tied to either the players or the manager. At this point, of course, the players have been completely soured and lost faith in the whole thing, so I'm not even very surprised that they're being "toxic." If everything was total chaos and non-stop failure at my workplace, I don't think I'd be going to work with enthusiasm and determination. Manchester United F.C. has become a toxic workplace environment, and nobody can thrive under that.

A lot can contribute to this. I've got experience analyzing and untangling TWE (Toxic Workplace Environments), and it's almost never as simple as "the staff are cnuts" or "the boss is incompetent." It'll be something that permeates the whole club. I'll point to such things as the fact that until very recently, regular staff at the club weren't paid a living wage. If you worked as, say, a cook or maintenance worker or whatever at MUFC, it paid less than a job at fecking McDonald's. It was expected that you would see it as a privilege to work for the club and do it for a pittance. And you wouldn't necessarily think that the feelings of the cafeteria staff has much of an impact on player performances, but these are the people they interact with day to day. These are the faces they see when they go to work. They're in that environment, and if the workplace environment is full of people who don't feel very good about it, it affects everything.

Contrast this to reports of City (and probably many other top clubs) who go out of their way to foster positivity at all levels of the club. If you play for a club where everyone loves to be, from the manager and players down to the cafeteria staff and kitmen, there won't be this cloud of negativity surrounding your job. And nobody is immune to the effects such a thing has on the subconscious. These players, who are often very young, are very much affected by the general mood and atmosphere of their workplace. These are young men, often in their early twenties, who are extremely susceptible to emotional influences, for much the same reason that there's a home team advantage because your fans are cheering you on while you play.

We all know that things have been a circus at the club for years. We were the last PL club to start paying a living wage, which I think we started doing just last year. I doubt the everyday workers all greeted the players with smiles and good vibes in the morning. The owners are parasitic businessmen who hijacked the club against its will and installed their Wall Street cronies in positions throughout the hierarchy, and leech money out of the club, money that the players are earning for them. That must surely affect the pride and joy of playing for United.
I'm not sure on this. From the limited noise that comes out of the club, we seem to be pretty good looking after staff and players. One example, I think it was the da Silva twins but initially when they came over and we provided them with a place, we filled the cupboards with Brazilian food so they felt at home. There are very good people working at the club, and its unfair to tarnish them. Liverpool are high flying and often seen as the shining beacon on how to run a football club. The same club that initially wouldn't furlough their staff during the pandemic.
 

VidaRed

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Our net spend on transfers under Ole had been the most from all the other PL clubs but yet none of our players would get into City and Liverpool's team.

None of these are Ralf's players and they are deliberately not following his instructions. What is he supposed to do?
Coddle them so they're motivated enough to put in a shift. That worked great with there mate ole.
 

Dansk

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One example, I think it was the da Silva twins but initially when they came over and we provided them with a place, we filled the cupboards with Brazilian food so they felt at home.
That was like fifteen years ago.
 

El Jefe

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By the way 'the players' is such a silly grouping. Maybe there's a bunch of them that are toxic or not pulling their weight but I find it silly to class 23 individual international players with a unique competitive drive and ego as the same. It's moronic.

If the story is the players aren't good enough, I can understand that but claiming they are toxic, downing tools and actively ignoring instructions is baseless.

These players were good under Ole and actually liked him, but his race was run, he'd done all he could and needed to be moved on because we lacked direction. In steps Ralf the godfather of whatever it was and he's been the worst appointment possible for this group. People want to ignore it but his management of this group couldn't have been worse.

I'll repeat, I'm not necessarily on the players side, a whole bunch of them need to be shipped out and its mainly because they're not of the required quality and our squad is unbalanced. I don't buy its because they are a toxic and uncoachable group.
 

flappyjay

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I still maintain the view that our main problem is recruitment and training. Something we are doing is incredibly off. Just compare that to Liverpool and City, is every player they buy a hit, not really, but they probably get 3/5 of their deals right while we seem to be closer to 3/10th and on top of that, those players who start well don't stay at that level, they usually deteriorate to the level of the rest, which to me indicates that not only our recruitment policy is wrong, but we also make players worse in training.

Now why this happens across the board for 4 managers is down to the leadership of our club. If they repeatedly keep hiring the wrong staff or restrict getting the right staff in because they feel there is no need for that, because things always worked with how they are doing things, that's a recipe for getting where we are, while we change managers the structures at the club remain the same.
The managers and the players are symptom of what's happening at the top.
 

city-puma

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By the way 'the players' is such a silly grouping. Maybe there's a bunch of them that are toxic or not pulling their weight but I find it silly to class 23 individual international players with a unique competitive drive and ego as the same. It's moronic.

If the story is the players aren't good enough, I can understand that but claiming they are toxic, downing tools and actively ignoring instructions is baseless.

These players were good under Ole and actually liked him, but his race was run, he'd done all he could and needed to be moved on because we lacked direction. In steps Ralf the godfather of whatever it was and he's been the worst appointment possible for this group. People want to ignore it but his management of this group couldn't have been worse.

I'll repeat, I'm not necessarily on the players side, a whole bunch of them need to be shipped out and its mainly because they're not of the required quality and our squad is unbalanced. I don't buy its because they are a toxic and uncoachable group.
There are so many here just baselessly accuse every player despicable human being and/or not manutd standard. You can’t argue with them on such a nonsense, illogical view of world. Just accept that and move on. Let’s hope ETH work out with the club structure changes in a good way at the same time to give his work a good foundation.
 

El Jefe

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There are so many here just baselessly accuse every player despicable human being and/or not manutd standard. You can’t argue with them on such a nonsense, illogical view of world. Just accept that and move on. Let’s hope ETH work out with the club structure changes in a good way at the same time to give his work a good foundation.
It's honestly getting ridiculous. You'd think our players are the most evil, abhorrent and loathsome bunch to ever walk the face of the earth by what you read on here.

Surely if they were so 'toxic' we'd hear about all these heinous acts they must have committed. To my knowledge their portfolio of toxicity consists of leaks and calling a coach Ted Lasso. I suppose you could add Cavani's absences to that but that's only one player.

Some on here and on social media have latched on to the players are toxic narrative and just running wild with it. They are just a demoralised group playing badly, it's that simple it can happen at any club especially if many of them aren't good enough to be Manchester United players.
 

Tango80

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By the way 'the players' is such a silly grouping. Maybe there's a bunch of them that are toxic or not pulling their weight but I find it silly to class 23 individual international players with a unique competitive drive and ego as the same. It's moronic.

If the story is the players aren't good enough, I can understand that but claiming they are toxic, downing tools and actively ignoring instructions is baseless.

These players were good under Ole and actually liked him, but his race was run, he'd done all he could and needed to be moved on because we lacked direction. In steps Ralf the godfather of whatever it was and he's been the worst appointment possible for this group. People want to ignore it but his management of this group couldn't have been worse.

I'll repeat, I'm not necessarily on the players side, a whole bunch of them need to be shipped out and its mainly because they're not of the required quality and our squad is unbalanced. I don't buy its because they are a toxic and uncoachable group.
What people tend to get mislead by is that they believe 'the players' is indicative of the whole squad. It isn't.

There are probably players there that are bad eggs, but it's far less than you think. Probably only a few.
 

::sonny::

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Adisa

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These players are shamless. The same coaches they complained were not up to the levels and got sacked. I wish I could get my hands on these cnuts.
 

Bebestation

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The managers can make good players great and well..manage a squad.

It's the managers.
 

RC89

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Ten Hag will fail if the entire squad isn't replaced within two years. The morale is below rock bottom. The ambition and pride are completely nonexistent. Mentality is pitiful. The footballing quality is subpar. A lot of these players are not top table material. This is definitely the worst footballing squad I have seen, and not just at Manchester United. It's beyond saving. It's not something you fix, not the least over 3 months. It's something you replace completely.
This is my worry too. It feels as though there's a mutiny right now and ETH is about to walk into that. And in fairness, from a pure quality POV, the majority of first team players should probably be moved on anyway. I'd like to keep De Gea, Fred, Bruno, Ronaldo, Sancho, Elanga. The rest I'm either indifferent to, or actually want gone.
 

Mmm-Qatarian

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I'm not trying to entirely absolve the players of blame but is it really that hard to believe that the coaching at the club has been entirely insufficient throughout the season?

If you look at the pedigree of our coaches this season, there's not a whole lot to write home about. This is a brief run through:

Mike Phelan: Previously assistant manager of the club under Ferguson from 2008 to 2013. Following that has had coaching stints at Norwich City (caretaker manager), Hull City (assistant manager and then briefly the manager), and Central Coast Mariners in Australia (sporting director/coach).

Michael Carrick: Joined the coaching staff at the club in 2018 under Jose Mourinho. No prior experience as a coach.

Kieran McKenna: Joined the coaching staff at the club in 2018 under Jose Mourinho. Was highly rated as the under-18s manager at both Tottenham Hotspur and then also United, but had no prior experience of coaching at senior level.

Martyn Pert: Had coaching roles at the Bahrain national team, Cardiff City and Vancouver Whitecaps between 2011 and 2018 before joining the United coaching team under Solskjaer.

Eric Ramsay: Was the assistant manager of Chelsea's under 23s team prior to his appointment to Solskjaer's coaching staff at United in 2021. Prior to that had served as the manager of Swansea City's under 18s team from 2013 to 2016, and then took on numerous coaching roles at Shrewsbury at both youth and senior level between 2017 and 2019.

Chris Armas: Recent coaching experience consist of a managerial role at Adelphi Panthers' women's team between 2011 and 2014, roles as both the assistant manager and then the manager of New York Red Bulls between 2015 and 2020, and then an unsuccessful six-month stint as manager of Toronto FC in 2021.

Ewan Sharp: As far as I can tell, his prior coaching experience consists of a ten month spell at Toronto FC followed by two months at Lokomotiv Moscow all in 2021. Had been a performance analyst at New York Red Bulls from 2017 to 2021 prior to that.

Again, none of this is to say the players do not shoulder a huge portion of the blame themselves. However, there is equally a stunning lack of elite level senior coaching experience within our coaching staff across this season and with that in mind I don't think it's particularly far-fetched to think that the standard of training sessions at the club has been well below par this season.
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
These players are shamless. The same coaches they complained were not up to the levels and got sacked. I wish I could get my hands on these cnuts.
Did the players and/or people on Twitter quoting 'sources' ever really complain about Carrick and Mckenna?

Not saying it didn't happen just that I can't remember ever seeing it.

Also Carrick and McKenna weren't actually sacked.
 

Son

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Our net spend on transfers under Ole had been the most from all the other PL clubs but yet none of our players would get into City and Liverpool's team.

None of these are Ralf's players and they are deliberately not following his instructions. What is he supposed to do?
Ronaldo, varane and arguably Sancho would get games in Pool’s squad. Fred probably too on the bench but I agree not too many others.

Ronaldo would probably start for City regardless also and maybe Varane.
 

sunama

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Ten Hag will fail if the entire squad isn't replaced within two years. The morale is below rock bottom. The ambition and pride are completely nonexistent. Mentality is pitiful. The footballing quality is subpar. A lot of these players are not top table material. This is definitely the worst footballing squad I have seen, and not just at Manchester United. It's beyond saving. It's not something you fix, not the least over 3 months. It's something you replace completely.
Agreed on all points. Most of the players need to be replaced.
I think some people are expecting ETH to improve our players, but you can't polish a pile of turds.
 

VidaRed

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Agreed on all points. Most of the players need to be replaced.
I think some people are expecting ETH to improve our players, but you can't polish a pile of turds.
These same people will happily nod when the players throw ten hag under the bus.
 

Yakuza_devils

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Really concern that these feckers will also refuse to run, press or follow ETH's instructions. ETH can't replaced the entire squad. They will throw the manager under the bus again and we can't do anything. Players power are real.

Even the godfather of gegenpressing Rangnick can't even get the players to run and press for 1 game. The most they were willing to do was against Burnley (if my memory survey me right) for 45 mins.
 

Telsim

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Really concern that these feckers will also refuse to run, press or follow ETH's instructions. ETH can't replaced the entire squad. They will throw the manager under the bus again and we can't do anything. Players power are real.

Even the godfather of gegenpressing Rangnick can't even get the players to run and press for 1 game. The most they were willing to do was against Burnley (if my memory survey me right) for 45 mins.
He absolutely can. Most of them can be moved within 3 transfer windows. Pogba, Lingard, Martial, Rashford, Bailly, Jones, AWB, Mata, Matic, Cavani can and should be moved this summer. No loss, only gain. Everyone else gets a trial year next season. Then get rid of the ones who don't cut it. Buy people this summer, winter and next summer and promote players from the academy. It's really not that hard. It's not like we will need squad depth for our CL challenge.
 
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roseguy64

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Wow. Didn't know that was possible considering everyone calling the players awful and wishing them all shipped out.
That's not gonna happen. Also, footballers as a group can shift on a dime with the right management. It's why Tuchel won the Champions League with last season's Chelsea amongst countless other examples I can't bother to look up.

All the manager needs to do is look for which players are not gonna buy in, shift them on and then go from there. The majority of the squad does not fall into the group of people who won't buy in. They want to win. It's just a toxic environment for a number of reasons including disappointment considering their expectations at the start of the season.
 
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From how everyone keeps banging on you would think we have used the same players for the past 9 years.

Moyes
Mata
Fellaini

Lvg
Blind
Di maria
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Depay
Martial
Shaw
Herrera

Darmian
Falcao
Rojo
Romero
Valdez

Mourinho
Bailly
Zlatan
Mkhitaryan
Zlatan
Pogba
Dalot
Lindelof
Matic
Lukaku
Fred
Sanchez

Ole
Bruno

Maguire
Awb
Telles
Van de Beek
Cavani
Ronaldo
Varane
Sancho
Amad
Pellestri
Ighalo
James

Supplemented with Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay and Dean Henderson, Januzaj, lingard(academy players with significant minutes)

Total : 45 players
Mental recruitment. I count 6 successes on that list. Shaw debatable so 5/45. 40 flops. Ed Woodward ruined this club so quickly.
 

Lost bear

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I'm at the point now where I feel like it must be the fundamental club culture. For almost a decade now, across five different managers and basically three different squads, things have been mostly the same. It doesn't seem realistic that the blame can be tied to either the players or the manager. At this point, of course, the players have been completely soured and lost faith in the whole thing, so I'm not even very surprised that they're being "toxic." If everything was total chaos and non-stop failure at my workplace, I don't think I'd be going to work with enthusiasm and determination. Manchester United F.C. has become a toxic workplace environment, and nobody can thrive under that.

A lot can contribute to this. I've got experience analyzing and untangling TWE (Toxic Workplace Environments), and it's almost never as simple as "the staff are cnuts" or "the boss is incompetent." It'll be something that permeates the whole club. I'll point to such things as the fact that until very recently, regular staff at the club weren't paid a living wage. If you worked as, say, a cook or maintenance worker or whatever at MUFC, it paid less than a job at fecking McDonald's. It was expected that you would see it as a privilege to work for the club and do it for a pittance. And you wouldn't necessarily think that the feelings of the cafeteria staff has much of an impact on player performances, but these are the people they interact with day to day. These are the faces they see when they go to work. They're in that environment, and if the workplace environment is full of people who don't feel very good about it, it affects everything.

Contrast this to reports of City (and probably many other top clubs) who go out of their way to foster positivity at all levels of the club. If you play for a club where everyone loves to be, from the manager and players down to the cafeteria staff and kitmen, there won't be this cloud of negativity surrounding your job. And nobody is immune to the effects such a thing has on the subconscious. These players, who are often very young, are very much affected by the general mood and atmosphere of their workplace. These are young men, often in their early twenties, who are extremely susceptible to emotional influences, for much the same reason that there's a home team advantage because your fans are cheering you on while you play.

We all know that things have been a circus at the club for years. We were the last PL club to start paying a living wage, which I think we started doing just last year. I doubt the everyday workers all greeted the players with smiles and good vibes in the morning. The owners are parasitic businessmen who hijacked the club against its will and installed their Wall Street cronies in positions throughout the hierarchy, and leech money out of the club, money that the players are earning for them. That must surely affect the pride and joy of playing for United.
Good, considered post, this….
 

SirReginald

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Mental recruitment. I count 6 successes on that list. Shaw debatable so 5/45. 40 flops. Ed Woodward ruined this club so quickly.
Fred’s a success? Interesting. Your club stands must have dropped. I’m in no way calling him a failure but he definitely hasn’t delivered consistently enough for the money you paid.
 

sreelesh

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I'm at the point now where I feel like it must be the fundamental club culture. For almost a decade now, across five different managers and basically three different squads, things have been mostly the same. It doesn't seem realistic that the blame can be tied to either the players or the manager. At this point, of course, the players have been completely soured and lost faith in the whole thing, so I'm not even very surprised that they're being "toxic." If everything was total chaos and non-stop failure at my workplace, I don't think I'd be going to work with enthusiasm and determination. Manchester United F.C. has become a toxic workplace environment, and nobody can thrive under that.

A lot can contribute to this. I've got experience analyzing and untangling TWE (Toxic Workplace Environments), and it's almost never as simple as "the staff are cnuts" or "the boss is incompetent." It'll be something that permeates the whole club. I'll point to such things as the fact that until very recently, regular staff at the club weren't paid a living wage. If you worked as, say, a cook or maintenance worker or whatever at MUFC, it paid less than a job at fecking McDonald's. It was expected that you would see it as a privilege to work for the club and do it for a pittance. And you wouldn't necessarily think that the feelings of the cafeteria staff has much of an impact on player performances, but these are the people they interact with day to day. These are the faces they see when they go to work. They're in that environment, and if the workplace environment is full of people who don't feel very good about it, it affects everything.

Contrast this to reports of City (and probably many other top clubs) who go out of their way to foster positivity at all levels of the club. If you play for a club where everyone loves to be, from the manager and players down to the cafeteria staff and kitmen, there won't be this cloud of negativity surrounding your job. And nobody is immune to the effects such a thing has on the subconscious. These players, who are often very young, are very much affected by the general mood and atmosphere of their workplace. These are young men, often in their early twenties, who are extremely susceptible to emotional influences, for much the same reason that there's a home team advantage because your fans are cheering you on while you play.

We all know that things have been a circus at the club for years. We were the last PL club to start paying a living wage, which I think we started doing just last year. I doubt the everyday workers all greeted the players with smiles and good vibes in the morning. The owners are parasitic businessmen who hijacked the club against its will and installed their Wall Street cronies in positions throughout the hierarchy, and leech money out of the club, money that the players are earning for them. That must surely affect the pride and joy of playing for United.
Excellent analysis....
 

DRJosh

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Fred’s a success? Interesting. Your club stands must have dropped. I’m in no way calling him a failure but he definitely hasn’t delivered consistently enough for the money you paid.
Fred usually put in a shift but yes he isn't a success by any stretch of the imagination
 

NinjaZombie

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So Fred is a success and mata isn't? :lol: :lol:

Tell me about recency bias.
It's ridiculous :lol:

What has Fred contributed to the club, looking at the bigger picture? How many trophy-less seasons has it been now? Guy was a bit part player under Jose when we last won a trophy.

Works hard, yeah but that should be a minimum requirement tbh.
 
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Fred’s a success? Interesting. Your club stands must have dropped. I’m in no way calling him a failure but he definitely hasn’t delivered consistently enough for the money you paid.
It's ridiculous :lol:

What has Fred contributed to the club, looking at the bigger picture? How many trophy-less seasons has it been now? Guy was a bit part player under Jose when we last won a trophy.

Works hard, yeah but that should be a minimum requirement tbh.
So Fred is a success and mata isn't? :lol: :lol:

Tell me about recency bias.
Fred is debatable too lads, I was being generous! So 41 flops.