It’s the players, not the manager

TrustInJanuzaj

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Do tell..how many players did Rangnick get in January?
You don’t have to make 10 signings because you can see if someone can coach. It was obvious with Klopp from day one and he was managing pure shite players (far worse than ours). The absolute bare minimum from a manager is getting something out of the talented players and playing as a team. He’s failed at the basics!
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Abit of rewriting history.... Liverpool finished 8th in Klopps first season.
And yet I called that they were on an upward trajectory in the second half of the season even though we finished second. Sometimes the obvious is right there in front of you, I got stick back then too…
 

jm99

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I keep saying this too. And I have looked at the managers psg have sacked and what they have went and achieved. It shows they really were coaching a bunch of prima donnas in Paris. Ten Hag is probably the closest we have gotten to an Elite manager post Sir Alex. The likes of Bissaka were signed by these managers.
Yeah, absolutely. PSG is a very good comparison when you look at ancelotti, tuchel and pochettino struggling to get s tune out of the players but go to win champions leagues and reach champions League finals with different players. At that point you can say it is the players. But when the previous managers are unemployed or managing Europa League level sides then it's probably a fair bet that they weren't up to the United job
 

DJ_21

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It’s obviously the players, ralf said himself that he told them before the game they need to defend as a team! The players are obviously not listening to managers instructions. None of them are fit to wear the shirt. Not 1 player put in 100% effort… I feel sorry for ralf walking into such a mess, you can tell when he’s speaking how he’s feeling and deep down he’s hurt and I know he’ll do everything he can to transform us next season and for the future.
 

ggg333

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You don’t have to make 10 signings because you can see if someone can coach. It was obvious with Klopp from day one and he was managing pure shite players (far worse than ours). The absolute bare minimum from a manager is getting something out of the talented players and playing as a team. He’s failed at the basics!
Isn’t the difference so obvious between them? One is permanent and the other is interim? If we would have hired ETH instead of Ralf and if he had similar result then this statement will be very right!
 

sglowrider

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Ten Hag is probably the closest we have gotten to an Elite manager post Sir Alex. The likes of Bissaka were signed by these managers.
Let's not make such prognostication just yet. Other than Moyes we were all quite excited and hopefully at the start with all the managerial appointment if we are being honest with ourselves.
Hindsight is always 20/20
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Ronaldo was himself laughing on the pitch seeing the state of his team mates. The squad was under performing before rangnick stepped in in the first place.

Great managers recognize they cant polish turd and bin shit players. Don't tell me pep and klopp would waste there time with lingard. Fergie in his time also fecked off shit players regularly instead of wasting his time. He also fecked off not so shit players who could't cut it at utd like veron.
Yes of course the shite players (yes like Lingard) need to go ASAP. That point would be much better though if the manager was actually getting something out of the other players which he isn’t.

You know what I liked about Ole? I think it was obvious which players were good enough and which were not, because whatever you thought of his coaching, he actually had the players playing to their level (not this season obviously). You could see under him that certain player like Lingard and Periera were crap while others like Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood etc were good.That is the absolute bare minimum for the manager, give your players the platform to perform. Not all of them will be able to and you’ll have to be ruthless to get rid of those that can’t. But providing the platform the good players will continue to perform, just as we saw last season with Bruno, Maguire, Rashford etc. When everyone’s underperforming, even the world class players are failing, and the platform has been pulled from under their feet that is when you can fully say the manager is crap and is going nowhere. That’s my two cents on how I see it anyway, and I think that’s the logical way.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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It’s obviously the players, ralf said himself that he told them before the game they need to defend as a team! The players are obviously not listening to managers instructions. None of them are fit to wear the shirt. Not 1 player put in 100% effort… I feel sorry for ralf walking into such a mess, you can tell when he’s speaking how he’s feeling and deep down he’s hurt and I know he’ll do everything he can to transform us next season and for the future.
What will you say if ETH comes in and builds a system right from the bat with many of these players?
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Well yes he will have a vastly different side
He will have many of these same players playing vastly better. Yes alongside some new signings which are needed but that goes agaisnt the narrative that our whole current playing squad is crap.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Isn’t the difference so obvious between them? One is permanent and the other is interim? If we would have hired ETH instead of Ralf and if he had similar result then this statement will be very right!
Yeh I think the interim factor is a valid point which I’ve acknowledged in other posts. I don’t think it fully absolves Ralf though. He’s failed to meet even the lowest of expectations.
 

flappyjay

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And I’ll say it yet again (I never get a reply on this point), the players have changed under each manager. Utd fans need to let go of this idea that no manager is fallible. The truth is, just like players there’s a lot of shite managers stealing a living, we just happen to have appointed another one!
From how everyone keeps banging on you would think we have used the same players for the past 9 years.

Moyes
Mata
Fellaini

Lvg
Blind
Di maria
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Depay
Martial
Shaw
Herrera
Darmian
Falcao
Rojo
Romero
Valdez

Mourinho
Bailly
Zlatan
Mkhitaryan
Zlatan
Pogba
Dalot
Lindelof
Matic
Lukaku
Fred
Sanchez

Ole
Bruno
Maguire
Awb
Telles
Van de Beek
Cavani
Ronaldo
Varane
Sancho
Amad
Pellestri
Ighalo
James

Supplemented with Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay and Dean Henderson, Januzaj, lingard(academy players with significant minutes)

Total : 45 players
 

VidaRed

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Yes of course the shite players (yes like Lingard) need to go ASAP. That point would be much better though if the manager was actually getting something out of the other players which he isn’t.

You know what I liked about Ole? I think it was obvious which players were good enough and which were not, because whatever you thought of his coaching, he actually had the players playing to their level (not this season obviously). You could see under him that certain player like Lingard and Periera were crap while others like Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood etc were good.That is the absolute bare minimum for the manager, give your players the platform to perform. Not all of them will be able to and you’ll have to be ruthless to get rid of those that can’t. But providing the platform the good players will continue to perform, just as we saw last season with Bruno, Maguire, Rashford etc. When everyone’s underperforming, even the world class players are failing, and the platform has been pulled from under their feet that is when you can fully say the manager is crap and is going nowhere. That’s my two cents on how I see it anyway, and I think that’s the logical way.
The entire team was already under performing, thats why ole was sacked. Rangnick inherited a dejected and under-performing team which was further hit with the greenwood scandle, cavani being injured while martial was loaned out. You should recall a couple of months back when we were creating chance after chance and missing sitters and open goals for fun, those games sapped out whatever little confidence was left in the players. They've checked out, most know they wont be here next season, the board didn't sign anyone either because they've written off the season. Rangnick can play whatever team he wants to there will have be a few passengers in the team and against any physical team up for a fight we'd be out-manned and out-gunned.

Rangnick hasn't improved the situation, he's just maintained the status quo and exposed the rot top to bottom. Of course he has to share some of the blame aswell but the large large chunk is on the previous managers, the players and the board.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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From how everyone keeps banging on you would think we have used the same players for the past 9 years.

Moyes
Mata
Fellaini

Lvg
Blind
Di maria
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Depay
Martial
Shaw
Herrera
Darmian
Falcao
Rojo
Romero
Valdez

Mourinho
Bailly
Zlatan
Mkhitaryan
Zlatan
Pogba
Dalot
Lindelof
Matic
Lukaku
Fred
Sanchez

Ole
Bruno
Maguire
Awb
Telles
Van de Beek
Cavani
Ronaldo
Varane
Sancho
Amad
Pellestri
Ighalo
James

Supplemented with Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay and Dean Henderson, Januzaj, lingard(academy players with significant minutes)

Total : 45 players
Exactly! I think some people are genuinely just so confused they don’t know who to blame. Add in the fact we had the best manager of all time for 25 years time and people find it much easier to blame the players (who are visible) over the manager.,
 

yipthatman

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"It was Moyes fault"
"It was LVGs fault"
"It was Joses fault"
"It was Oles fault"
It's Ralfs fault"

10 years of excuses. Yes, the managers were some of the problem, but the one common factor is the players.
I wonder how many of Moyes's players are still with Ralf? Completely different squad isn't it?
 

glazed

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It's every aspect of the club that is at fault - managers, players, executives, transfers, coaching, mentality, priorities. This is what you get when the football is secondary to the franchise in every department. The new chief executive is apparently trying to fix all this, but the one thing he cannot fix is the Glazers. So it remains to be seen if he will be successful. Today proves nothing either way in that regard.
 

saivet

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They do have their faults but a top manager can make a big difference. That Spurs squad has a lot of dross and were terrible under Jose and Nuno yet are half decent under Conte.

It's not a players are the only problem and the manager can do no wrong.
 

Ted Lasso

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From how everyone keeps banging on you would think we have used the same players for the past 9 years.

Moyes
Mata
Fellaini

Lvg
Blind
Di maria
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Depay
Martial
Shaw
Herrera
Darmian
Falcao
Rojo
Romero
Valdez

Mourinho
Bailly
Zlatan
Mkhitaryan
Zlatan
Pogba
Dalot
Lindelof
Matic
Lukaku
Fred
Sanchez

Ole
Bruno
Maguire
Awb
Telles
Van de Beek
Cavani
Ronaldo
Varane
Sancho
Amad
Pellestri
Ighalo
James

Supplemented with Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay and Dean Henderson, Januzaj, lingard(academy players with significant minutes)

Total : 45 players
When something goes wrong for this long, any company will look to the top and question the c suite, executive leadership.

That is the common thread here. And interestingly, it's that same Woodward chap that's been known to have been strongly influenced by players and loves being friendly with them.

Woodward has just left and all of a sudden like dominoes the curtain of the wizard of oz has been revealed and left and right the staff a lot of us have wondered about, are dropping like flies and being revealed as part of the big problem.

The players are a major symptom of the institutional issue of Manchester United. It's a club run like a commercial machine.

The only hope is what seems to be the boards realization that things have to change
 

Lyng

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You don’t have to make 10 signings because you can see if someone can coach. It was obvious with Klopp from day one and he was managing pure shite players (far worse than ours). The absolute bare minimum from a manager is getting something out of the talented players and playing as a team. He’s failed at the basics!
Ralf didnt get a single one. Despite losing Greenwood and Cavani being chronically injured. You say Klopps team is far worse, I say Klopp would have struggled with this side as well.
 

Steffa Barnesa

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The owners set the tone. With the money superclubs have, good owners who want to win above all will hire people to do that. Most of them, either old money or new money, that wanted major trophies have won major trophies. Our owners don't care, and we've been paying the price for years (even towards the end of Fergie's tenure).

The owners are absolutely the biggest problem, they're untimately to blame for the poor structure, poor managers and poor players. Ten Hag can fix things, but not on his own - unless the owners back a whole raft of other changes. It's no coincidence us and Arsenal have struggled from hangovers from having long-term, legendary managers who did so much themselves but left a gaping void other clubs could easily surpass. Yet we've done nothing worthwhile to catch up in ten years. What an embarrassing waste of time and money, not to mention a waste of a position of strengh.
 

glazed

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Ralf didnt get a single one. Despite losing Greenwood and Cavani being chronically injured. You say Klopps team is far worse, I say Klopp would have struggled with this side as well.
They weren't particularly bad players when they arrived. They just haven't been bought with a coherent strategy in mind. And then they haven't been coached. And they've been put in the wrong environment. So they became bad players.
 

DJ_21

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What will you say if ETH comes in and builds a system right from the bat with many of these players?
I highly doubt that mate… halve of these players will be gone. He’ll keep a few but in a few years time we’ll have a complete different starting 11.
 

Grizzly B

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Rangnick might not be the right man for the United job, but these players should be ashamed of themselves. They are playing like they don’t care - that’s the minimum I ask of our players is that they care and try, if you try and you’re not good enough that’s one thing but not trying is unforgivable.

There is not a single player I would be unhappy to lose over the summer.
 

InspiRED

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He is a lame duck manager now, toxic squad he inherited all true. Nevertheless there isn't a world where 4-0 to brighton is acceptable. Ralf doesn't care, he's going. Squad doesn't care half them are leaving. Noone cares. Where is the professional pride? Just fecking pathetic it is. Only plus is it can hardly be possible for ETH to do worse than this. Feck this bs team of nothingness.
 

DJ_21

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Ralf didnt get a single one. Despite losing Greenwood and Cavani being chronically injured. You say Klopps team is far worse, I say Klopp would have struggled with this side as well.
Klopps team was worse because we’ve actually got a decent team… the difference is the coaching and the players mentality’s.:: we’ve got a lot of players with bad attitude and I think if klopp was here he’d be getting rid of them to have any chance of succeeding with us.
 

The Bloody-Nine

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You don’t have to make 10 signings because you can see if someone can coach. It was obvious with Klopp from day one and he was managing pure shite players (far worse than ours). The absolute bare minimum from a manager is getting something out of the talented players and playing as a team. He’s failed at the basics!
Klopp:

Klopp believes that Rangnick is an outstanding coach who will make life difficult for the opposition.

Klopp said to The Telegraph: “Unfortunately, a good manager is coming to England to Manchester United. United will be organised on the pitch, we should realise that – that’s obviously not good news for other teams.

“He is a really good man and an outstanding coach. He most famously built two clubs from nowhere – Hoffenheim and Leipzig – to proper threats and forces in Germany.

“He did a lot of different jobs in football but always his first concern was being a coach and a manager. That’s what his best skill is, obviously.

“Between the coaches (in Germany) he is very highly regarded, and wherever he was he did an incredible job.”


https://sportslens.com/news/ralf-rangnick-jurgen-klopp-manchester-united-manager/#:~:text=Klopp believes that Rangnick is an outstanding coach,that’s obviously not good news for other teams.

Trust in JANUZAJ knows better.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Klopp:

Klopp believes that Rangnick is an outstanding coach who will make life difficult for the opposition.

Klopp said to The Telegraph: “Unfortunately, a good manager is coming to England to Manchester United. United will be organised on the pitch, we should realise that – that’s obviously not good news for other teams.

“He is a really good man and an outstanding coach. He most famously built two clubs from nowhere – Hoffenheim and Leipzig – to proper threats and forces in Germany.

“He did a lot of different jobs in football but always his first concern was being a coach and a manager. That’s what his best skill is, obviously.

“Between the coaches (in Germany) he is very highly regarded, and wherever he was he did an incredible job.”


https://sportslens.com/news/ralf-rangnick-jurgen-klopp-manchester-united-manager/#:~:text=Klopp believes that Rangnick is an outstanding coach,that’s obviously not good news for other teams.
Brilliant when do we get to see the evidence of that on the pitch?
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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You won't with us, despite all of the players he's brought in.

How is Januzaj getting on? I can see you have an eye for talent.
Right.. so let’s take our biggest rival managers opinion as gospel on it then? Just like how he was right when he talked about the refs and the penalties we win… It’s not like we have to see any evidence of actual coaching ourselves is it?

Hed walk into our current team. Frankly if you couldn’t see the talent on him that entirely on you :lol:
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I think when the report says a core of roughly eight players ETH can trust and build around are Garnacho, Hannibal, Shoretire, Garner, and the other youths.
 

Lee565

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It's both, let's not absolve either side of the blame.

When you have signed over billion on players and introduced countless promising youth players to the first team and barely a player has improved at the club in the past decade that has a lot to bad coaching, coaches like conte, pep, klopp, haag, tuchel will more often improve players they work with.
 

NoLogo

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From how everyone keeps banging on you would think we have used the same players for the past 9 years.

Moyes
Mata
Fellaini

Lvg
Blind
Di maria
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Depay
Martial
Shaw
Herrera
Darmian
Falcao
Rojo
Romero
Valdez

Mourinho
Bailly
Zlatan
Mkhitaryan
Zlatan
Pogba
Dalot
Lindelof
Matic
Lukaku
Fred
Sanchez

Ole
Bruno
Maguire
Awb
Telles
Van de Beek
Cavani
Ronaldo
Varane
Sancho
Amad
Pellestri
Ighalo
James

Supplemented with Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay and Dean Henderson, Januzaj, lingard(academy players with significant minutes)

Total : 45 players
I still maintain the view that our main problem is recruitment and training. Something we are doing is incredibly off. Just compare that to Liverpool and City, is every player they buy a hit, not really, but they probably get 3/5 of their deals right while we seem to be closer to 3/10th and on top of that, those players who start well don't stay at that level, they usually deteriorate to the level of the rest, which to me indicates that not only our recruitment policy is wrong, but we also make players worse in training.

Now why this happens across the board for 4 managers is down to the leadership of our club. If they repeatedly keep hiring the wrong staff or restrict getting the right staff in because they feel there is no need for that, because things always worked with how they are doing things, that's a recipe for getting where we are, while we change managers the structures at the club remain the same.
 

blythy

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It's the culture at the club from top to bottom;

Run by bankers whose main objectives are to generate cash, not win trophies. As a result footballing decisions have been made by people who are out of touch with modern football (or were simply never 'in touch' e.g. Dishing out huge contracts to mediocre players (to protect their value) which is bound to have a knock-on effect on the pitch sooner or later.

On the players side; they think they've made it because they're at Manchester United. They're not prepared to work hard enough e.g. they thought they could just turn up at Brighton because they beat Brentford. Complacent and simply not as good as they think they are - but it is the culture at the club which has nurtured this attitude. The turnover of managers (and their staff) is also a major factor - the majority of these players know they will (likely) outlast them and simply 'go through the motions' and still pick up their over-inflated pay packets.