It doesn't get any more ridiculous than this...

In the UK, I would say a very vast majority of Muslims recognise that he/she lives in a secular society, understands that the laws of this country have historically been framed for non-muslims, recognises the rule of law, respects rights of others to hold different faiths or no faith, and to live their lives according to their different principles within the rule of law, and who accepts that his or her World view is to be promoted in Britain only through peaceful, lawful and democratic means.

I have every confidence that among the three million muslim population of the UK, such Muslims form the overwhelming majority...
 
In the UK, I would say a very vast majority of Muslims recognise that he/she lives in a secular society, understands that the laws of this country have historically been framed for non-muslims, recognises the rule of law, respects rights of others to hold different faiths or no faith, and to live their lives according to their different principles within the rule of law, and who accepts that his or her World view is to be promoted in Britain only through peaceful, lawful and democratic means.

I have every confidence that among the three muslim population of the UK, such Muslims form the overwhelming majority...

I always thought there would be a few more than that...
jol.gif
 
If you join a website devoted to rapes and rapists, call yourself the Serial rapist online, possess a lot of books on rape and have written on the back of a receipt that you feel the urge to rape then you could be considered a danger to society and potentially charged.
Waaaaaaaa?

Unless you actually commit that act or are suspected of committing it, you should not be charged.
The conviction of the Muslim girl's a farce.
 
There are a few poets I wouldn't mind locking up for the good of our youth.

In fact most of them just to be safe.
 
This isn't the first time people have been arrested without committing a criminal act and I doubt it will be the last. Then again they are charged under the terrorism act - allowing for a lot more scope for the authorities to act?

I don't think it matters what form it is be it poetry, videos, registering to certain websites or just taking a more than 'average' interest in the whole thing. I think its a case of there being certain 'instructions' inside the material which allows them to arrest the person, like in the poet's case, they are probably talking about the making of bomb's and fighting against oppression and the like.

I don't agree with it mind but then the government would have a lot of backing to fight terrorism so maybe they can do this?

I actually have friends that have been convicted for the above.
 
Actually I have had a change of stance over this.
People to get charged for inciting violence with racial comments. Even though they can claim that they are exercising freedom of speech. In same way if she is deemed to encourage terrorism, I guess she could held accountable.
 
Basra women fear militants behind wave of killings

BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) - Women in Iraq's southern city of Basra are living in fear. More than 40 have been killed and their bodies dumped in the streets in the past five months for behavior deemed un-Islamic, the city's police chief says.

A warning scrawled in red on a wall threatens any woman who wears makeup or appears in public without an Islamic headscarf with dire punishment.

"Whoever disobeys will be punished. God is our witness that we have conveyed this message," it says.

Women in the Shi'ite city are convinced hardline Islamic militants are behind the killings and say they fear going out without a headscarf.

"Some women were killed with their children," Basra police chief, Major-General Abdul-Jalil Khalaf, told Reuters. "One with a six-year-old child, another with an 11-year-old."

Khalaf, who was sent to Iraq's second-largest city in June with a mandate to get tough on criminals, said he did not know who the perpetrators were but vowed to catch them.

Rita Anwar, a 27-year-old Christian, said she was thinking of leaving Basra, or even Iraq, altogether.

"You would not believe that I also wear the headscarf sometimes. It is terrifying to read this graffiti in red threatening murder," she said.

During the long rule of Saddam Hussein, who suppressed Islamists, Iraqi women in urban areas enjoyed some of the most casual dress codes in the Middle East.

Conservative Islamist influences have spread since the U.S.-led invasion removed Saddam in 2003. This has led to stricter interpretations of Islam in many parts of Iraq.

Police in Basra showed Reuters pictures of women whose bodies were found with notes attached, accusing them of adultery and other "honor crimes".

One photo was of Hayat Jassem, 45, found dead with two gunshot wounds in the stomach. Another was of an unidentified woman in her 30s who was found dead and blindfolded.

"The relatives of those killed never report these crimes because they fear scandals or because they fear the threats of those killers," said Khalaf, sitting behind a desk against a backdrop of two large Iraqi flags.

STATE OF FEAR

A group of tribal Shi'ite leaders told Reuters in October that Shi'ite Islamist political parties were imposing strict Islamic rules in southern provinces and using their armed followers to create a state of fear.

The sheikhs, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the conservative attitudes meant that only religious music was now allowed to be played in public places and dancing was forbidden, as was drinking alcohol.

Basra itself has witnessed a turf war between rival Shi'ite groups, including supporters of cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and his Mehdi Army militia, the powerful Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, and the smaller Fadhila party which controls the governorate.

Hareth al-Athari, an official from Sadr's political movement in Basra, said the movement opposed killing women for wearing un-Islamic attire.

"This is a hideous crime," said the bearded cleric, wearing a black turban and black robe. He said the role of his movement's members was to educate people through written statements or face-to-face talks.

However, several women interviewed by Reuters said Islamic militants -- they did not say who -- were intimidating them, forcing them to cover their hair and bodies.

"A party official who is also a university student came to me and said female students should not attend exams without wearing the headscarves," said one student, who asked not to be identified for fear of reprisals.

"He told me 'God willing there won't be any girl left in the university without wearing a headscarf'."

Khalaf, who has won praise from coalition forces for his efforts to clean up Basra, said investigations were still under way to find those behind the killing of women in the city.

He said assassinations aimed against other groups, such as university professors, had dropped. "Only a few professors (have been killed). But I do not accept even if it was just one," he said.

Asked who could be behind the killing of women, Athari said: "We cannot accuse anybody. But I can say that these gangs are linked to international intelligence agencies."

"Or they are linked to movements that want to accuse the Sadrist trend of this," he said.
 
Found this article this morning whilst checking my fantasy football team, its a terribly bad newspaper (Telegraph) but I'll post it anyway as it is relevant to the thread.

Muslim apostates threatened over Christianity
10/12/2007

When Sofia Allam left the Muslim faith for Christianity, the response from her family was one of persecution and threats. Alasdair Palmer explores the dangers facing Islam's apostates

Sofia Allam simply could not believe it. Her kind, loving father was sitting in front of her threatening to kill her. He said she had brought shame and humiliation on him, that she was now "worse than the muck on their shoes" and she deserved to die.

And what had brought on his transformation? He had discovered that she had left the Muslim faith in which he had raised her and become a Christian.

"He said he couldn't have me in the house now that I was a Kaffir [an insulting term for a non-Muslim]," Sofia - not her real name - remembers.

"He said I was damned for ever. He insulted me horribly. I couldn't recognise that man as the father who had been so kind to me as I was growing up.

"My mother's transformation was even worse. She constantly beat me about the head. She screamed at me all the time. I remember saying to them, as they were shouting death threats, 'Mum, Dad - you're saying you should kill me… but I'm your daughter! Don't you realise that?'?"

They did not: they insisted they wanted her out of their house.

After three weeks of bullying, and just before her parents physically threw her out, Sofia left. "They put their loyalty to Islam above any love for me," she says, her voice faltering slightly.

"It was such a shock. I remember thinking when they brought all my uncles round to try to intimidate me - all these men were lined up telling me how terrible a person I was, how the devil had taken me - I remember thinking, how can this be happening? Because this isn't Lahore in Pakistan. This is Dagenham in London! This is Britain!"

Religious persecution of the kind Sofia suffers, however, is increasingly common in Britain today. It is hard to get an accurate notion of the scale of the problem, not least because very few of the people who leave Islam are willing to complain to the police about the way they are treated.

"Intimidation is very widespread and pretty effective," says Maryam Namazie, a spokesperson for the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain. She believes that many of the deaths classified as "honour killings" are actually murders of people who have renounced Islam.

"I get threatened all the time: emails, letters, phone calls," she says. "When I returned home this afternoon, for example, there was a death threat waiting for me on my answering machine…" She laughs nervously.

"A lot of them aren't serious, but occasionally they are. I went to the police about one set of threats. They took a statement from me but that was it - they never contacted me again."

That treatment is in sharp contrast to the seriousness with which the Dutch and German police responded when members of the Council of Ex-Muslims in those countries made complaints to the police about death threats.

"The heads of the Dutch and German organisations are today both living under police protection," Ms Namazie explains.

Last week, it was reported that the daughter of a British imam was living under police protection, after receiving death threats from her family for having left Islam.

But it is not only extreme Muslim families that believe it is their religious duty to threaten, and even kill, members who renounce the religion.

"My father could not be described as an extremist," insists Sofia, who is now 31. "We read the Koran and prayed regularly together, but he never insisted on my wearing Islamic dress and he was quite happy that I went to the local comprehensive, which was all girls, but not by any means dominated by Muslims."

There were conflicts when Sofia's parents tried to arrange a marriage for her at the age of 18, but they seemed to accept her decision to continue her education.

"They even let me go away to university," she explains. "I appreciated how difficult it was for them to grant me that freedom, and I was very grateful for it. In the event, though, I only lasted three months - I just got so homesick that I had to come back to Mum and Dad."

Sofia got a job in a hotel and quickly became a manager. Her interest in Christianity was entirely self-generated. She acquired a Bible, which she hid in her bedroom. But four years ago, her mother found it.

"She confronted me one morning with, 'Are you still a Muslim?' I had to tell the truth: I didn't think I was. From that moment on, she basically disowned me. My father was shocked and saddened. But the reality was that my parents behaved to me as if they thought it would be much better if I was dead."

Most leading Muslims in Britain are unequivocal in their denunciation of British Muslim parents who threaten to kill their children for leaving Islam.

Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), says that it is "absolutely disgraceful behaviour… In Britain, no Muslim has the right to harm one hair of someone who decides to leave Islam."

Inayat Bunglawala, also a spokesman for the MCB, insists that such behaviour in Britain is "awful and quite wrong. The police should crack down on it."

And yet a significant portion of British Muslims think that such behaviour is not merely right, but a religious obligation: a survey by the think-tank Policy Exchange, for instance, revealed that 36 per cent of young Muslims believe that those who leave Islam should be killed.

There is considerable support, from the Koran and other sacred Islamic texts, for that position - which may explain why, out of the 57 Islamic states in the world today, seven have a legal code that punishes Muslims who leave the religion with death.

That number may soon increase: Pakistan is currently considering a Bill that would make apostasy a capital crime for men and one carrying a sentence of imprisonment for women.

As it is, ordinary Pakistanis take the law into their own hands and kill Muslim apostates. The same thing happens in Turkey where, earlier this year, two people were killed for "having turned away from Islam".

Patrick Sookhdeo was born a Muslim, but later converted to Christianity. He is now international director of the Barnabas Fund, an organisation that aims to research and to ameliorate the conditions of Christians living in countries hostile to their religion.

He notes that "all four schools of Sunni law, as well as the Shia variety, call for the death penalty for apostates. Most Muslim scholars say that Muslim religious law - sharia - requires the death penalty for apostasy.

"In 2004, Prince Charles called a meeting of leading Muslims to discuss the issue," adds Dr Sookhdeo. "I was there. All the Muslim leaders at that meeting agreed that the penalty in sharia is death. The hope was that they would issue a public declaration repudiating that doctrine, but not one of them did."

The reluctance to condemn sharia law is widespread. I asked Mr Bunglawala, for instance, to condemn the Islamic states that imposed the death penalty for apostasy. He did not do so, merely commenting that "it was a matter for those states".

Given the acceptance by some that Muslim religious law does indeed require that apostates be killed, it is hardly surprising that many ordinary Muslims think that it is their religious duty to carry out that punishment - or at least to threaten it.

"There can't be freedom of religion in Britain while so many British Muslims take that attitude," Sofia says. "It frightens me, because attitudes have hardened over the past decade."

Still, won't her parents eventually just recognise that she has chosen to change her religion? Won't they, in 10 years' time, accept her back? "No," Sofia says, her eyes full of tears. "That will never happen. I know it. They will never accept me the way I am."
 
I'm not trying to 'prove' anything, I just read an article relevant to the discussion and posted it.

For me the most worrying paragraph is:
Most leading Muslims in Britain are unequivocal in their denunciation of British Muslim parents who threaten to kill their children for leaving Islam.

Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), says that it is "absolutely disgraceful behaviour… In Britain, no Muslim has the right to harm one hair of someone who decides to leave Islam."

I really wish the words "in Britain" were not there and hope that he is being misquoted.
 
what are you trying to prove ?


The article is supposed to prove the barbaric culture that prevails within Muslim communities in the UK, and the predictable line that violent hatred of apostates is rooted in Islam.

A quote from Namazie

"many of the deaths classified as honour killings are actually murders of people who have renounced Islam".

Any surprises that the Telegraph doesn't ask her to provide any evidence for this claim, or any attempt that hatred towards those who change their religion is any more prevalent among Muslims than in other faiths (I know of a few shocking stories of those who converted to Islam from other faiths).
 
"He said he couldn't have me in the house now that I was a Kaffir [an insulting term for a non-Muslim]," Sofia - not her real name - remembers.

I was actually going to take some time out and read that article but I stopped.

Is it really insulting? Its just one type of human beings isn't it? I've never heard of it being said to treat them in a bad way. Maybe the reporter used the following site for this definition...

Noun 1. kafir - an offensive and insulting term for any Black African
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kafir
 
I really couldn't bother to read past the first page, but I will just add that Pletch is right and just aobut everybody else is wrong.

As a muslim, why would I waste my precious time to try and speak up against that sort of idiocy that some other muslims do or have done? Indeed, why would any muslim who has a job-wife/gf-and a generally quality life waste time to speak up when it basically doesn't concern us directly? Just what's the point of the original poster, does he want us to stand up and speak against the dumfecks who blow themselves up? Wouldn't that be the same just like a muslim asking all catholics to stand up and speak up against those child molesting priests?

The thing is I believe, that most of us just continue with our daily lives without really caring about things that are beyond our control. If some cnuts in Sudan or Iraq do something unacceptable, I'll be disappointed when I read about it on the paper but moments later I will just continue doing what I was about to do, as it doesn't fecking concern me what some muslim cnut has done.

Having said that, I believe that islam has plenty of disadvantages as a religion, in that it preaches a stupid ideology and blind believers usually don't make it far and generally become a bunch of deluded fanatics who think they're the only ones who are right and everybody else is wrong.
In some aspects, Bible has gained a lot by being updated just about as often as Windows. And good thing it says that having pre-marital sex is a sin but it leaves out the part of doing it with altar boys being a sin. Lucky priests :lol::lol:.

I guess in the end, organized religion is pretty much a lot of bollocks, that's the only logical way looking at it.
 
I really couldn't bother to read past the first page, but I will just add that Pletch is right and just aobut everybody else is wrong.

As a muslim, why would I waste my precious time to try and speak up against that sort of idiocy that some other muslims do or have done? Indeed, why would any muslim who has a job-wife/gf-and a generally quality life waste time to speak up when it basically doesn't concern us directly? Just what's the point of the original poster, does he want us to stand up and speak against the dumfecks who blow themselves up? Wouldn't that be the same just like a muslim asking all catholics to stand up and speak up against those child molesting priests?

The thing is I believe, that most of us just continue with our daily lives without really caring about things that are beyond our control. If some cnuts in Sudan or Iraq do something unacceptable, I'll be disappointed when I read about it on the paper but moments later I will just continue doing what I was about to do, as it doesn't fecking concern me what some muslim cnut has done.

Having said that, I believe that islam has plenty of disadvantages as a religion, in that it preaches a stupid ideology and blind believers usually don't make it far and generally become a bunch of deluded fanatics who think they're the only ones who are right and everybody else is wrong.
In some aspects, Bible has gained a lot by being updated just about as often as Windows. And good thing it says that having pre-marital sex is a sin but it leaves out the part of doing it with altar boys being a sin. Lucky priests :lol::lol:.

I guess in the end, organized religion is pretty much a lot of bollocks, that's the only logical way looking at it.

Dead right.

I too ignore these posts. I used to respond, but I felt it was just time consuming. So, I just skim through the page, and let it go. I find the banter and leg pulling in the General Thread more interesting.
 
Mike, The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) married Aysha when she was approximately Nine years old in 621 CE. No doubt many anti Islamic sites will have you believe that this fact highlights his paedophile nature, however their marriage was not consummated until after she began menstruating. The marriage is said to have taken place in Makkah, but she did not start living with the Prophet until he migrated to Medina - some years after. I still know people who were married whilst quite young but did not consummate their marriage until they turned teenagers, so this custom was quite common until recently.

what is your opinion sutan?
do you think it is ok to marry and have sex with a 12 or 13 or even 10 year old for that matter, so long as she is menstruating?
or do you think that mohammed was wrong and his instructions were wrong(regarding this issue) with the benifit of hindsight, when compared to moden knowledge?