That's fair enough. I don't think he'll kick up a stink but I also don't think there were any concrete offers for him in the summer. It could be a totally different story next time and at that point we'll see how keen/willing he is to force a move.
Jack Grealish
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
He's playing well on the international stage too (which I value less than the PL for what it's worth). Can't really judge something that doesn't happen. That's absolutely true that he can flop. Look at Hazard, a remarkably similar player who is not having the best of times there.
I appreciate that he’s flavour of the month and everything, but he’s in a growing group of players that I just don’t really fancy for some reason. Well, not for ‘some reason’, I have a specific reason.
I can’t stand players whose priority on a football pitch seems to be to showcase how hard they are to dispossess. As talented as he was, it was an issue I had with Hazard, and one I also have with Zaha. They have something of a playground approach to the game. Hazard just wanted to soon around and around until his ankles were tapped and everyone says ‘ooooh, statistics - that’s another foul on Hazard. He’s so difficult to get the ball from’. Zaha can be similarly found lamenting about how hard it is to stop him legally, and their approach seems to be to generate fouls more than anything else so everyone can see how skilled they are.
When I watch Grealish, he likes to hold on to the ball until he’s kicked to me, almost as of there is some sort of victory itself in being kicked.
I can’t stand players whose priority on a football pitch seems to be to showcase how hard they are to dispossess. As talented as he was, it was an issue I had with Hazard, and one I also have with Zaha. They have something of a playground approach to the game. Hazard just wanted to soon around and around until his ankles were tapped and everyone says ‘ooooh, statistics - that’s another foul on Hazard. He’s so difficult to get the ball from’. Zaha can be similarly found lamenting about how hard it is to stop him legally, and their approach seems to be to generate fouls more than anything else so everyone can see how skilled they are.
When I watch Grealish, he likes to hold on to the ball until he’s kicked to me, almost as of there is some sort of victory itself in being kicked.
I don't think he'll be here in a year or 2 unless the club makes monumental strides to match him which is very unlikely, I'm under no illusions of that. It'll take a minor miracle to keep him at this point.
Him not playing in Europe isn't a reflection of his ability, but the club he plays for really. He's also been man of the match in almost every match he's played for England, so he's at least passing that (imo inferior) yardstick.
He's always been a victim of his loyalty in a sense. I'm certain if he performed like this playing for a CL club we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'll just hang back and continue to watch him proving people wrong. You can tell from the progress we've made on the caf, from being overrated and not even worth 30m to now debating if he's one of the best players in the world in pretty much a year. I'll definitely take that
Saw a lot of comparisons of Grealish with Hazard from a few years ago, not too far off. Different type of players (Hazard way more pace) but their impact is similar (statistically with their passes, carries, xGassisted, etc). Either way though, doesn't change that he's a left winger or a #10, the 2 positions where our 2 most important players for the next 5 years play. Unless Rashford becomes like a full time right winger, he just doesn't make sense to buy, even though he is a brilliant player.
For the last little bit and now, we need a CB, a holding mid, and a right winger. Just focus on that and stop being distract by shiny toys that don't improve us as much as they could simply because we'd be pretty much at best providing competition to out strongest position. Camavinga, Upamecano and Sancho for example would address our 3 main concerns with 3 brilliant young players. Not that its entirely realistic, and we did get Diallo so we'll see how he pans out. But I just don't see a clear scenario where we sign Grealish.
For the last little bit and now, we need a CB, a holding mid, and a right winger. Just focus on that and stop being distract by shiny toys that don't improve us as much as they could simply because we'd be pretty much at best providing competition to out strongest position. Camavinga, Upamecano and Sancho for example would address our 3 main concerns with 3 brilliant young players. Not that its entirely realistic, and we did get Diallo so we'll see how he pans out. But I just don't see a clear scenario where we sign Grealish.
You're getting ahead of yourself. Grealish is not close to being as good as you think he is. Real/Barca only pay considerable fees for the PL players that have Ballon D'or potential. Ronaldo, Bale, Suarez and Modric reached levels Grealish hasn't come close to nor will ever come close to.Not saying we will, not even close. It's a crazy season though and there is a slight chance, so I'm trying to envision a scenario where he stays which was the question posed.
Yeah I'm not too familiar with their finances to be fair. I'm just seeing a lot of similarities to that Bale season in terms of rapid progression and output. He seems like exactly the type of player they would have signed if they were still of the interest of assembling Galacticos. Right age, marketability, everything. That's actually good news that their finances are in the gutter
If he moves its to a top 4 team in the PL.
Coutinho.
also Hazard - although that’s clearly a bit more contentious. Neither of those players were ever winning the Best Balloon award (as if that actually means anything anyways).
I get where you're coming from but I never like when Hazard gets lumped in with these type of players. Hazard is a winner and has used his style to win the league at Lille and Chelsea being the main guy. So while he may not have the eye catching stats he has trophies to back him up.
I do agree that Grealish is very much in the flavour of the month(s) category though. His overrating seems to be taking on a life of its own with each passing page.
At the very least, it’d bring some balance in that regard! Bruno, Fred, and Rashford treat the ball like it’s hot potato with very quick driven high risk percentage passes. A ball magnet who can retain it a bit better in advanced positions is an element this side is missing. Be it Grealish, Sancho, or someone else.
I meant Ballon d'or potential, not necessarily winning it. Coutinho's career has gone down the drain but in 2017 and 2018 he was unreal and explains why Barca paid that insane amount. He got 22 goals and 15 assists in 42 games.
As you mention, Ballon d'or level is a bit of an arbitrary term but the main point of my post is that the likes of Bale, Cristiano, Coutinho, Suarez, Modric etc reached levels that Madrid/Barca had to come calling. Grealish is nowhere near that level and I'm quite certain he never will be.
Indeed. Football is a tough old game and its more than just lighting up the EPL for a few months. Its about doing it at the highest level and pressure over a sustained period
I agree. It is getting a bit ridiculous.
It's an interesting perspective. I do think it applies, certainly when he plays in midfield or against a team who defends deep. I haven't seen him do this much lately. I think if it comes down to consistency and these players revert back to 'a style' like this, almost to hide bad form, then it can at worst be disturbing to the flow of the team. Probably why Zaha wouldn't have worked out at a top club.
However, a player like Grealish has certain qualities that might shine in our setup with other players around him, and being hard to dispossess is actually a skill that we miss in our team. Someone that can hold on to the ball and bring others into play without being a target man or muscle man. Another strength I've noticed is that Grealish seems to have great decision making on counter attacks, which again would suit our team.
I am happy he stayed at Villa. Good for the league and good for him so far. A great fit.
Ideally if money was doable would have similarly been better if De Jong and De Light stayes at Ajax.
Anyway I dont think we need to comcern ourselves with a player like Grealish. Looks good on paper but reality is more complicated.
Ideally if money was doable would have similarly been better if De Jong and De Light stayes at Ajax.
Anyway I dont think we need to comcern ourselves with a player like Grealish. Looks good on paper but reality is more complicated.
I mean, being hard to dispossess is never a bad thing. And I’m generally anti-statsmania - but I just think that mentally, they haven’t evolved from the playground. Hazard, for example, could have been a far better player than he was to me. Like, close to Messi almost. My memory of him at Chelsea was just being chased around and being hacked down. Kevin De Bruyne has a totally different mentality in that if he were a sat nav, he would select ‘quickest route to opposition goal’. He’s constantly trying to affect the game as a first instinct.
Grealish has the ability to be whatever he wants. Perhaps at a bigger club with better players around him, his mentality may be different. Bruno Fernandes, for example, has a similar approach to the game as De Bruyne, as does Cristiano Ronaldo, although he was more like Hazard and Zaha in his younger years.
But yea, more than anything else, I think the running commentary of those players is about how they are the ‘most fouled’, and I think they have bought into the narrative too much themselves and see it as some sort of compliment. Zaha is probably the worst culprit of this. He is constantly moaning ‘ref, how many times?’ but when it’s all said and done, he’d typically end a season with 6 goals or whatever. Southgate said similar about Grealish, and pointed out that his numbers are now improving. Hazard’s numbers were boosted by penalties, but I don’t recall him ever scoring a tap-in or a header he had to fight for. His primary concern was being an ‘artist’. He’s an Arsene Wenger player if I’ve ever seen one.
Hhazard wasn't a goalscorer. He had one of the highest chance creation stats in the league when he played. He also was one of the best ball carriers in the league and his ability to move Chelsea up the pitch was legendary. Playground footballer is a first
So you've just answered this yourself. The club is what's holding him back from making the next step at such and this is why he'll move on sooner than later.I don't think he'll be here in a year or 2 unless the club makes monumental strides to match him which is very unlikely, I'm under no illusions of that. It'll take a minor miracle to keep him at this point.
Him not playing in Europe isn't a reflection of his ability, but the club he plays for really. He's also been man of the match in almost every match he's played for England, so he's at least passing that (imo inferior) yardstick.
He's always been a victim of his loyalty in a sense. I'm certain if he performed like this playing for a CL club we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'll just hang back and continue to watch him proving people wrong. You can tell from the progress we've made on the caf, from being overrated and not even worth 30m to now debating if he's one of the best players in the world in pretty much a year. I'll definitely take that
Grealish is the exact same. Leading the league in chance creation right now and was second to De Bruyne last season. They're not like De Bruyne because they're ball carriers and they'll invariably be fouled more because of that. When Hazard had one of his "on" seasons he was absolutely devastating, stats-wise too.
But he should have been a goal scorer. He was a ‘ball-carrier’ because he seemed to derive the most joy in carrying the ball.
Says who? Why are you deciding what he should have been. He has always been a playmaker. His dream position was the number 10. He doesn't have the goalscorer movement or finish
Says me of course!
Doing my simple maths, he plays with 3 players behind him in midfield roles, and another 4 defenders. Which makes him a forward. Then I look at the ability he has. And my conclusion is that he should score more goals (that are not from the penalty spot). He’s a phenomenal talent, but I maintain, is primarily concerned with being a handful from my observation.
Seems to me that you enjoy the attention you get from being controvertial.
Grealish is, in my opinion, the best progressive player in the PL. He is perhaps not the most progressive player. I’m sure their are a central defender or right back who moves the ball more yards than him in a progressive direction. But Grealish moves the ball into a dangerous space. No other attacker in the PL comes close to moving the ball as progressively as Grealish. He is also the ball player with most touches in the PL in the penalty box. This is factual and undisputable. You might understand the implication of it or you might not.
Only two players have completed more passes in the penalty box, Trent and KdB. He is also the player with most shots creating actions and shots creating passes per 90 min by a great distance. Only Bruno and KdB have made more goal creating actions (marginally), obviously benefiting from playing with better players. Yes, he has done this at Aston Villa.
To claim that he keeps the ball just to keep it is just ignorant. He is, along with Bruno and KdB, the most productive player in the league.
Arguably the best player to watch in PL. Awesome player.
And anyway, he gets hacked too quickly these days. The moment he gets the ball, especially if it's in midfield, a player is on him right away and often ends up fouling him.
He has the highest amount of created chances of anyone in the league - above Bruno and De Bruyne. He’s not a flavour of the month, he is just a quality player.
More I see of him the more I like. Put him in a top side and watch his stats grow.
Do people think he could play central midfield alongside Bruno and an athletic DM? That’s the only way we sign him I think and I’m not sure it would suit him.
He's at a level of his own right now. Playing in the toughest league in the world and he just seems to waltz past players. Best British player we've produced since Gascoigne!
——————Martial——————
Rashford——————Greenwood
———-Grealish—Bruno—————
Grealish——Rashford—-Greenwood
——————Bruno——————————
Rashford———Martial——Grealish
——————Bruno—————————
Rashford———Martial—-Greenwood
————————Grealish———————
Martial——Greenwood——Grealish
——————-Bruno—————————
Cavani, Diallo, not mentioned yet, replace Cavani with a DCL or Haaland and we are there.
The strength in attacking depth would ensure title challenges for the next 3-4 years.
It’s not an option for me, we must sign him.
We have our youth signings, we must now sign the best of British.
Rashford——————Greenwood
———-Grealish—Bruno—————
Grealish——Rashford—-Greenwood
——————Bruno——————————
Rashford———Martial——Grealish
——————Bruno—————————
Rashford———Martial—-Greenwood
————————Grealish———————
Martial——Greenwood——Grealish
——————-Bruno—————————
Cavani, Diallo, not mentioned yet, replace Cavani with a DCL or Haaland and we are there.
The strength in attacking depth would ensure title challenges for the next 3-4 years.
It’s not an option for me, we must sign him.
We have our youth signings, we must now sign the best of British.
He's also an embarrassing little turd with his diving. Has to be said
that is not good maths. Maybe he is a bit flavour of the month at the mo but at least he’s earned it, James Rodriguez had a bit of that before fading back into irrelevance.I don’t think we desperately need him but agree he is class and would only add another dimension to our depth.
I think the only way he plays would be off the left side unless we rotate him with Bruno.
I’ve not seen him play off the right side as you suggest in some of those lineups although I haven’t seen all his games.
When discussing our attacking options I think an elite Striker is of more importance but would still love to add Grealish for depth and in this form he would play his way into the side no doubt.
This take does not factor in the incredibly important job of pressure alleviation that both Zaha and Grealish have to take on with inferior team-mates. Grealish has to hold on to the ball for an inordinate amount of time to enable his team to keep their own shape whilst positioning themselves as mindfully as they can in attacking phases.
Just like Zaha, the onus is on Grealish to draw as many opposing players to himself as possible before progressing the ball to then-open players, who have been afforded far more space than they otherwise would have if Grealish were to quickly play the ball on or try to incorporate them in intricate moves they don't have the technical acumen or nous to be part of. It would prove very costly for Villa to have the ball turned over via passing breakdowns or sloppy play, which, aside from McGinn, I think they'd be a dead cert to serve up.
The time to judge whether these players are hogs is when they are around players who don't need them to do X for them to do Y. For England, Grealish releases the ball faster and works to get himself into positions for quicker passing chains. That is evident within a few minutes of watching him. Zaha has shown he can play in a number of ways, so it is a strange comment to level at him.
What strikes me about Zaha is the sense that he feels he should be at a bigger club than Palace whereas Grealish seems to genuinely enjoy being at Villa, for the time being at least.
Tbf Rodriguez has been struggling with an injury since the Liverpool game. It is no coincidence that goals have dried up for DCL in the games that he and Digne have missed.
The most fun thing of all when watching Grealish is how opponents treat him in this all-action pressing age, they're not sure what to actually do. You barrel into him, you sell yourself and he skips past you; you stand off, he slowly advances towards you encroaching on the space you're hesitant to take up; he goes for a pressing run and you see players tracking him being unsure whether to go for it with all they have or try and time their stab-tackles whilst not over-committing or unbalancing themselves.
What he shows is that the skill is timeless and effective in any era. All those 'walking footballers' would be just as effective now as they were in their own day because it's never just a case of fitness or athleticism; skill of that sort buys time and creates a stream of doubt in the mind of defenders who don't know what the best option between sticking and twisting is. Further still, if they get done just a couple of times in a half, they're already conditioned to not have it happen again.
What he shows is that the skill is timeless and effective in any era. All those 'walking footballers' would be just as effective now as they were in their own day because it's never just a case of fitness or athleticism; skill of that sort buys time and creates a stream of doubt in the mind of defenders who don't know what the best option between sticking and twisting is. Further still, if they get done just a couple of times in a half, they're already conditioned to not have it happen again.
A front 4 of Bruno, Grealish, Martial and Rashford with Greenwood and Cavani to come on, is tasty
Is there any reputable source out there hinting at what his release clause might be? Has been suggested in numerous places there is one and it was increased when he signed his new deal.
Also he's developed in to a fantastic player but I do wonder where he would fit in at United?
Also he's developed in to a fantastic player but I do wonder where he would fit in at United?
- LW - Rashford here + it arguably might still be Martial's best position too.
- RW - would be pretty wasted out here, also probably wouldn't provide the width Utd need out here as AWB isn't good enough going forward to do so either.
- MF 3 - with Bruno as well this would be too attack-minded, especially without a pure DM at the moment which Fred isn't really.
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Did Wayne Rooney never happen?