Been supporting since the late 90s and I am 24. So yh, I'm probably a new fan compared to some.That must be awful for new fans like you
Jamie Carragher on Mourinho
- Thread starter Inigo Montoya
- Start date
Yes he does.
Chelsea in 2015 have:
- Struggled to score goals.
- Let goals in at an alarming rate.
- Played shit football on the whole.
- Not given youth much of a chance (Zouma the only one).
- Most transfers have failed horribly.
That's where he scores. Look, I'm not saying he's terrible but he's in the same category as players we've had who have gone on to do well at that level. If he was that brilliant, how come no one else has made a move other than Championship clubs? Hell, Sunderland and Newcastle should have bid for him but no...
So 3 years of a drought is some thing very new to you. Try waiting 26 years for a title
Yes we are! We wouldn't be if we were a club that went years without a trophy or if we were a financially weak club but we have none of these excuses. Playing the way José does is fine and even admirable if you are Atlético Madrid, Internazionale or even a Real Madrid side desperate to put a stop to Barcelona's dominance. But we face none of those challenges since we are rich, have only really experienced 2 bad years so far and are not up against probably the greatest team ever so what is our excuse really in adopting a win at all costs strategy? I don't have the answers on how to build a team that can dominate instead of one that destroys and plays the ugly version of City's front foot authoritative football but the board should come up with those answers, they have no excuse not to with the resources we have. If their answer to stop the rot and fight against City's aspirations and high ambitions is to hire a destroyer who plays them like a Pulis or Allardyce side play the bigger clubs, they are not earning their money then. It would be like that Real side that had the cream of attacking talent going out to destroy games against Barcelona's artists; ugly and non befitting of a club that calls itself the biggest. At least Pulis and Allardyce can use the money as an excuse, what would be ours? "we went a whole two yeas without a trophy"? That just sounds spoiled to me.
I am not. He'd have to change, or I'd want him out of the door. I want us to turn it around under Van Gaal so this situation goes away. Within 3 months of Mourinho conceding possession against our rivals, I'd be absolutely fed up. We should be dominating games by monopolising the ball, and it seems the club wants to continue in that direction, which is why we haven't sacked Van Gaal yet.
Feck off Jamie, we've got a manager.
I meant overrated in the now. You are talking different eras. If he lacked all ambition or opportunity to move on you could see Hughes at Stoke for a decade, bobbing around the middle of the Premier League, taking in the odd Wembley trip. But for the biggest clubs that level of consistent mediocrity is unacceptable. Which leaves clubs like Utd, City etc battling it out to sign the cream of world management. That's a handful of guys who nowadays behave exactly like players, ie, looking to move on to bigger and better things aware that the sack is only half a season of bad results away. So who can blame them. The managerial merry go round is much faster and bigger than it was in Busby and Fergie's day and Van Gaal is not going to be given a four year period to fail in like Fergie because, as well as it being unpalatable to the club, he doesn't even intend to stay that long. So Manchester United would not be losing very much by letting him go now.
Jamie is an idiot. He also thought Moyes should have been given time, and that he would bounce back in San Sebastián. Within the confines of his mind, he's crapping bricks at the thought of José + United.
It is this that nags me the most really. The idea that our fans have that a 3 years drought is something crazy. Barcelona went 5 years without a title in the '00s, Juventus went down the second division and Bayern were largely insignificant in Europe for about a decade. That's not even to mention us going 26 years without a trophy. It is spoiled fans trying to justify that they can't handle a period of looking from the outside where we are not as successful as some sort of sign that we are going to disappear from the face of the earth if we don't act fast. We won't, it takes much longer than that to stop being a big club and the club should be working towards putting us back in in a befitting way, not the Mourinho way.
I agree on Bamford that he wont make it but he is definitely a PL player
Ake should be playing, he looked oks great for Watford and has shown great maturity and ability as their LB. Would be great DM cover as well.
Christensen has been one of Monchengladbach's best players and again deserves to be a starter at Chelsea. He has shown great maturity too and also brought some great performances against the best sides like Bayern, City and Juve.
Solanke is the youngest there playing his first season of men's football for Vitesse. He has not been as good but is still scoring goals at a decent rate and is constantly improving. Should be pushing into the side in the next couple of years.
I would also add Baker to the list of players Mourinho has neglected. He has looked great in every loan and has been one of the best players in the Dutch league this season playing from CM.
What I'm saying is 3 years turns into 4,5,6 and so on. That's what I'm worried about. Don't even what to think about a number like 26. But if it happens, what can one do?
I'm with you on this and If I'm honest I think they'll go down a different route with the next managerial appointment.
If JM divides opinion so much on here then it must resound in the boardroom too. If it's not a huge majority decision then I can't see it happening
The problem for you is that while you have an endless pot of money and appoint short term managers this trend will continue. It may have started with JM but while he's been away there have been all those others who have palpably failed to promote any Chelsea Youth products. My feeling is that the next manager will just go for the quick fix and buy option too
Because there isn't an alternative therefore, we are desperate. I suppose he does have a point.
Your need to prove that to other people (who I assume to be non-United fans) seems to say more about you than anything else.
Any fan wants to see their team do well. Your suggestion seems to be that being a fan should be some sort of penance. Is supporting a struggling team some sort of validation in your eyes? A bizarre way to look at anything in life I would say.
And frankly, it's not just about winning. There's a whole lot more wrong with Van Gaal's United that that.
I think it will coz Ed already proved to have the Real sort of mentality and by that I mean, a teenage fan sort of mentality. He proved it when he bought a player who had 6 world class months so he can have a "Galactico". It wouldn't surprise me therefore that he is unwilling to work on building a club the way Bayern or Barcelona do and by that I mean, combining big signings with work on the long term. He will go on about it the way Chelsea and Real Madrid have been and are doing which is by simply focusing on getting the best names on paper and hoping it would work well enough to compete with the others as soon as possible. The sad thing as I stated before is that City are showing higher aspirations, they got themselves up there with the Sheikh's money but they have been working ever since on a vision and building a brand that looks to be consolidated with Pep next summer. I'd hate us to be to City what Real are to Barcelona and it looks like Ed is getting us there.
No manager has had the time Mourinho had. Only Ancelotti lasted two years and he played youth in his second season, came second and was sacked. The rest have been interim to interim. Also, the level of talent has never been this high with Chelsea's youth players.
The criticisms are valid of mourinho, doesn't bring through young players, plays a boring style of football, but what do we have now?!!!
We've a manager who's 'philosophy' is the worst football I've ever seen us play, and he's loaned out two of our best young players cause he doesn't rate them. The only reason he plays young players is because he sold so many of our squad players that once we had the injuries (that we always get) he was left with no choice.
Mourinho would be no worse than LVG in these respects.
We've a manager who's 'philosophy' is the worst football I've ever seen us play, and he's loaned out two of our best young players cause he doesn't rate them. The only reason he plays young players is because he sold so many of our squad players that once we had the injuries (that we always get) he was left with no choice.
Mourinho would be no worse than LVG in these respects.
My fears are that if we don't change it now - especially when there is a guaranteed winner, the best manager in the world (despite Chelsea this season) available - then we might not even finish fourth. This needs to be addressed and I fully believe that Jose Mourinho would at least have us qualify for the Group Stage of the Champions League. I'm really not sure if Louis van Gaal can do it again and I wouldn't trust it to Ryan Giggs yet either. Chelsea being so far back is the only reason we're a strong contender for the top four.
Jose may not bring back the style of play we were used to for over 20 years, but I can't see it being any worse than what we're playing like now. Were Chelsea boring last season? Definitely not. The best is available, so get him. If not him, who else? If we don't finish in the top four, who will come? A lot of cries for Pep Guardiola for example, but if we finish 5th or 6th then he's not coming either (I reckon he's City bound anyway).
Basically, Redknapp doesn't want United to have the best guy in charge because he is a Liverpool fan. I actually think he manages to not be biased that often (even if some of it is tongue in cheek or a facade), but this is a definite case of bitterness. With van Gaal (or anyone else available) United are assured of nothing this season. With Mourinho, I think we could nick third place (or who knows if January's window goes well).
Jose may not bring back the style of play we were used to for over 20 years, but I can't see it being any worse than what we're playing like now. Were Chelsea boring last season? Definitely not. The best is available, so get him. If not him, who else? If we don't finish in the top four, who will come? A lot of cries for Pep Guardiola for example, but if we finish 5th or 6th then he's not coming either (I reckon he's City bound anyway).
Basically, Redknapp doesn't want United to have the best guy in charge because he is a Liverpool fan. I actually think he manages to not be biased that often (even if some of it is tongue in cheek or a facade), but this is a definite case of bitterness. With van Gaal (or anyone else available) United are assured of nothing this season. With Mourinho, I think we could nick third place (or who knows if January's window goes well).
Carragher has an agenda. His opinion are biased and he knows that there is a significant chance we will improve if we appoint Mourinho. Wouldn't take his opinion too serious.
If we can't get Guardiola then Mou must be our best alternative by some distance. He tick every box for a taylor made replacement but the must important thing is that he wants revenge and have a point to prove. Don't underestimate the motivation factor.
Manchester United is the perfect platform for a experienced manager like Jose Mourinho. I think that he has learn from previous mistakes and will adapt to our culture and approach this job with a more modest style. I'm sure Sir Alex will give him some good advice. Another important thing is the combo of Wooward and the new manager. They need to talk the same language and have the same drive.
Results is everything! Points give everybody confidence and with confidence you create a positive and healthy atmospher. If we starts to win again the new manager will have confidence to play more attractive, bring in youth and rotate our squad. It's like domino. Losing obviously creates fear and what's come along with that feeling.
I will be very satisfied with Jose Mourinho. We should have done this over two seasons ago but better late then never.
If we can't get Guardiola then Mou must be our best alternative by some distance. He tick every box for a taylor made replacement but the must important thing is that he wants revenge and have a point to prove. Don't underestimate the motivation factor.
Manchester United is the perfect platform for a experienced manager like Jose Mourinho. I think that he has learn from previous mistakes and will adapt to our culture and approach this job with a more modest style. I'm sure Sir Alex will give him some good advice. Another important thing is the combo of Wooward and the new manager. They need to talk the same language and have the same drive.
Results is everything! Points give everybody confidence and with confidence you create a positive and healthy atmospher. If we starts to win again the new manager will have confidence to play more attractive, bring in youth and rotate our squad. It's like domino. Losing obviously creates fear and what's come along with that feeling.
I will be very satisfied with Jose Mourinho. We should have done this over two seasons ago but better late then never.
Wouldn't want that. Don't want a focus on tracking back and countering the opponent every game.
Carragher rarely comes across as someone with an agenda as a pundit, he's shown similarly balanced opinions to that of Neville. Only time you could even begin to argue bias with either is when it came to their former clubs.
Play what way though? Jose's Chelsea regularly outplayed Sir Alex's United,he joined Inter where he took on Barca toe to toe and destroyed them in the first leg of the CL semi final, played a final v Bayern where they were so much in control it seemed a formality from the first whistle.
He then joined Madrid where he should have defended deeper against Barcelona but suffered crippling defeats because they refused to defend with 10 men, he then got the measure of El Classicos beating Barca in the CDL final and out playing Barca themselves at the Camp Nou to basically clinch the league title, outscoring the greatest club side ever to do it.
People point to our 08 and 09 sides as boring to watch, I see no difference between those two sides and a Mourinho side in full flight.
I don't think he has an agenda. He basically admitted Mourinho will win us trophies. What he's saying is true. But there's nothing wrong in being desperate if you're facing a dire situation.
Wow, Carragher is spot on, that's worrying 
Would never take advice from a Scouse, a lifelong Dipper, and with his record of over the top tackles against our players.
Don't want to wait 26 years to win a league title again, so we need to do whatever it takes to win. If the youth players are good enough, then they will break through, otherwise they can simply move on.
Let's be honest. Mourinho will never be the right man for United. I don't think he's even that bothered about managing us; the idea that he's desperate for the United job is something the press invented. He'll probably be back in Madrid in the new year. We shouldn't allow fear of Pep going to City to change our principles. If Van Gaal can't do the job, there has to be another manager out there, whether it's someone like Pochettino or whoever else, who can come in and be successful with an attacking approach.
Mourinho loves to be loved. If he came to United, he'd promote youth a lot more than he has done anywhere else. He'd do it just for the adulation.
My worry would be his 3 year best before date. Has he learned from his past mistakes or is he doomed to repeat them?
I'd rather have Giggs, but if Mourinho can avoid rubbing people up the wrong way, I wouldn't mind him coming in. My fear is that he might leave us in a terrible state afterwards like he did with Inter. His short term thinking got them a treble, but his sudden departure left them with a squad that went into sharp decline as soon as he left. If that cycle gets repeated, we'd have 3 years of success, followed by another 3 or 4 years of rebuilding. I don't personally want that. It's why a steady presence is always my preference.
My worry would be his 3 year best before date. Has he learned from his past mistakes or is he doomed to repeat them?
I'd rather have Giggs, but if Mourinho can avoid rubbing people up the wrong way, I wouldn't mind him coming in. My fear is that he might leave us in a terrible state afterwards like he did with Inter. His short term thinking got them a treble, but his sudden departure left them with a squad that went into sharp decline as soon as he left. If that cycle gets repeated, we'd have 3 years of success, followed by another 3 or 4 years of rebuilding. I don't personally want that. It's why a steady presence is always my preference.
Chelsea have had no more good youth players than Ferguson let go during his time (e.g. Rossi, Pique).
It's such a bullshit argument and has no basis in the reality of top clubs. Even fecking Liverpool stick to tried and tested players 99% of the time (and we've all heard for years how 'great' their youth players have been).
Bar the class of 92', Ferguson brought through feck all quality and in many ways it hindered United in his later years having to play shite like Tom Cleverly instead of buying some genuine talent.
It's such a bullshit argument and has no basis in the reality of top clubs. Even fecking Liverpool stick to tried and tested players 99% of the time (and we've all heard for years how 'great' their youth players have been).
Bar the class of 92', Ferguson brought through feck all quality and in many ways it hindered United in his later years having to play shite like Tom Cleverly instead of buying some genuine talent.
I'm incredibly cynical about Mourinho because, I feel, he's an incredibly cynical man. Like you, I've yet to see any solid proof that 'he dreams of managing United'.
Carragher has an utopic view of Manchester United, he judges Sir Matt Busby and Sir Alex Ferguson by their results at United but was SAF an utopic appointment, wasn't he a very pragmatic appointment with clear missions like getting rid of the pub culture and rebuilding an academy with the help of Eric Harrison?
When I look at Mourinho, I see a manager who has a bad temper and a reprehensible attitude and that's something that I don't like but I believe that he can fix that. On the football part I think that Mourinho is underrated, on the training ground he has been good with players like Varane, Robben, Jesé or Morata, the last two didn't just unlocked their talents with other managers they were training with him the years before.
We know that Mourinho can play attacking football and that he can take care of young players. At Chelsea, Real Madrid and Inter they didn't cared about that, they wanted trophies and quickly, and he logically took the pragmatic way. In all of us there is an utopist, there is something that makes us tick, so I think that it is perfectly possible to give objectives outside of trophies, like playing a good brand of football, beating the PL goal record or bringing at least one academy players every two seasons.
I think that you can stimulate a coach like Mourinho by challenging him in a positive way, by making him foresee the place that he could have in the history of the game, he surely doesn't want to be a reincarnation of Capello.
When I look at Mourinho, I see a manager who has a bad temper and a reprehensible attitude and that's something that I don't like but I believe that he can fix that. On the football part I think that Mourinho is underrated, on the training ground he has been good with players like Varane, Robben, Jesé or Morata, the last two didn't just unlocked their talents with other managers they were training with him the years before.
We know that Mourinho can play attacking football and that he can take care of young players. At Chelsea, Real Madrid and Inter they didn't cared about that, they wanted trophies and quickly, and he logically took the pragmatic way. In all of us there is an utopist, there is something that makes us tick, so I think that it is perfectly possible to give objectives outside of trophies, like playing a good brand of football, beating the PL goal record or bringing at least one academy players every two seasons.
I think that you can stimulate a coach like Mourinho by challenging him in a positive way, by making him foresee the place that he could have in the history of the game, he surely doesn't want to be a reincarnation of Capello.
That's a fair question but I think you seem to be responding to the cliché complaint that Mourinho is a defensive manager. I never said he was a defensive manager nor do I think he is. My problem with him is that he is a reactive one with no style or personality footballing wise. Part of being a reactive manager is going for the kill when you think it is your best chance which was the case for his Chelsea sides against our worst sides under Fergie and with his Real side against the worst Barcelona of the past 5 years. I also have no doubt that if he comes to us and we come up against opponents that he deems to be not dangerous enough, he would set us up to take the initiative.
A lot might consider this sensible management and the way it should be and that would be a valid point. I however, feel that if you are as big and rich as we are, we should be aspiring to imposing our style on opponents no matter what the way Barcelona and Bayern do. It is the most difficult to do in football but Barcelona and Bayern are not richer or bigger than us so I see no reason why we shouldn't aspire to those heights especially since our noisy neighbours are. Mourinho never puts in any effort towards that. His management manual is basically to get the basics right i.e: a solid backbone and a couple of tricky dangerous players. The rest is dependent on the opponent, if they are good, he defends. If he smells danger, he goes for it. Wenger, LvG, Pep, Klopp are pro active managers, they instil an identity in the teams they manage. Of course that might not work and not be enough to succeed but the principle is the only one for me befitting of big rich clubs. I don't want a principled failure like Wenger for the past 10 years or LvG with us but I equally don't want a "do whatever it takes" success.
A lot of fans in general might claim that this is asking too much and they'd be right but as I said before, what is our board doing if not aiming for the highest possible? I was in support of the LvG appointment not because I thought they'd win us trophies but because I thought they are done with the idea that the club has an idea where it was going and what it is trying to achieve. It didn't/isn't working out, fair enough but just because it failed, I don't think it's an excuse to change attitude entirely. In my view, that is what Mourinho is, a manager that will come in do whatever necessary to get the results now and yes that might be going for it from time to time but it's not the idealist footballing vision I want to see at Manchester United. Romantic? of course! The entire relationship between fan and club is a ridiculous one based on no logic whatsoever which is why it makes sense to avoid the pragmatic especially when you can afford it like we can.
You are right about those United sides at least in Europe which is why I don't hold them as an example of high aesthetics either. They were brilliant against domestic opponents but the way we played for example against the worst Barcelona side of the decade is not befitting of a big club either. At least we were not known for that and at least Fergie realised it himself which is why he set up the following games against them in a different manner (according to his book at least). It didn't succeed, sure and we might have enjoyed more success if we set out the same way in those finals as we did in 2008 but at least we played like a big club, a not very good one but a big one still.
What on earth leads you to believe that, JP? Even since he came back to England, he talked about maturing, becoming an elder statesman of football management...and look what happened. He won't change because he doesn't want to change.JPRouve said:
Been saying since November these next 2 games are crucial. If we are within shouting distance of the top and pick up a couple of good transfers we can still end the season well. That then gives us time to bring in a top manager to move forward in the summer. If we continue to lose then LVG has to go but short term should that be Jose - I am not convinced he is the man for us. Carlo was my preference.
The problem is we will not have the pick of the top managers in the summer. van Gaal is too old in the tooth to change things around. He is not going to say he was wrong all this time and say he will have the team play attacking football and more importantly winning matches. He has simply not got it anymore.
Morinho is 52 and currently the best manager out there. I am willing to overlook his personality issues.
I'm 100% sure that something happened behind the scene, the problems were visible for a long time and it was way before the Evagate, also at the exception of Gus Hiddink and Benitez all the managers had problems at Chelsea, there is something wrong within the board and the locker room.