Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

[Suedesi]

Madrid playing in a 4-4-2 diamond shape.

United's formation practically looks like a 3-6-1. That's quite a midfield block defensively, but ball progression is poor.

Heatmaps and average player position (including subs)

 

[adamwest]

My problem is, we will use the same tactics against teams not even as good as Madrid.
We won't win many big games and I've made my peace with it.

The positivity is strong here.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

^^^

As I thought. Despite the "352, oh noes!!!" hysteria we didn't play with three centre-backs. Four at the back, with Valencia getting further forward at RB than Darmian on the opposite flank (which will hopefully change if/when Shaw gets his game).

Basically a 433. Which we'll probably see a lot more of this season.

 

[BusbyMalone]

^^^

As I thought. Despite the "352, oh noes!!!" hysteria we didn't play with three centre-backs. Four at the back, with Valencia getting further forward at RB than Darmian on the opposite flank (which will hopefully change if/when Shaw gets his game).

Basically a 433. Which we'll probably see a lot more of this season.

How anybody could construe that line-up to be a 352 i never know. I would actually preferred to use the 352 last night as i think it could benefit us moving forward with the personnel we have.

And when the hell did this fecking trophy become so prestigious? Posting that stat about him becoming the first manager to lose 3 super cup finals, as if that's somehow the summation of the mans career, is absurd. He's won multiple Champions Leagues, multiple Leagues in different countries but let's get bent out of shape because he lost this, quite frankly, meaningless game. And it is definitely meaningless in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the result.

 

[Phil Osophy]

Matchday thread links for insight. A new low.

Normally I tell people to review the game if they have the chance. But in this case I can't tell someone to spend 90 minutes to see that garbage. Reading that thread he will reach the same conclussions in 5 minutes.

The match day thread is a bit emotional, but much more honest than the propaganda spread by some fanatics the following day, trying to distort what actually happened.

 

[pcaming]

Tbh I didn't see a team that went out to defend, I see a team that was made to defend because the opposition simply overwhelmed us. We started with a bit of confidence, but when kroos, modric and isco got in rhythm we simply couldn't cope. I'm not sure where this 352 stuff is coming from, it was clearly 433 and the strongest team we could put out bar lingard. That's it basically, bar improvements with the swapping of bailly and rojo in at CB, that's our best team and it got overwhelmed with ease. We can hope that the herrera, pogba and matic midfield settles quickly (pogba's decision making yesterday was woeful), but in attack, I don't think we have what it takes in the wide positions, we haven't in years.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Normally I tell people to review the game if they have the chance. But in this case I can't tell someone to spend 90 minutes to see that garbage. Reading that thread he will reach the same conclussions in 5 minutes.

The match day thread is a bit emotional, but much more honest than the propaganda spread by some fanatics the following day, trying to distort what actually happened.

Heh. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I just asked to be banned from that forum, it's so full of abject nonsense.

Re watching the game again, you should try it. Madrid were superb but we had some spells of quality football too. Don't just take my word for it. Here's an opinion from someone with no dog in the fight.

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NB. He tweeted those before Fellaini came on.

 

[el3mel]

You just read the OP and you immediately realized this thread is just open to slaughter the manager. Of course if we say it's a total of meltdown after a normal loss it'll be we're deluding our selves, the team is terrible and we're going to struggle this season but we're a bunch of fanatics that live in dreams, just like the laughable meltdown in Martial thread.

People expecting us to control possession and toy with Madrid field as if all other top teams ( who are even better and ahead of us ) had a fine ride against their midfield with no problems at all. It's all down to our defensive negative approach. We should have copied Pep's ticki taka with Bayern against Madrid in 2014 when he got slaughtered on the counters 4-0 because he went on to attack but at least he attacked so it's great, forget the result ! Of course attacking and losing by 4-0 is much better and less embarrassing than playing a tight game and losing 2-1.

The fact is whatever formation and players we would have played Madrid got the upper hand and would have won. They're a team which defending or attacking in front of him doesn't matter. They can keep possession and can strike you with counters as well. They're not uni-dimensional teams but they're very well prepared for all different scenarios and can hit you at any time. Anyone who believes changing tactics or playing this rather than that would have changed the performance on the pitch is the real delusional. The only thing that made us able to attack was when Fellaini was introduced and we passed their unstoppable midfield by long balls, but a team vs a team we would have been defeated anyway.

This is exactly like the 2011 CL final. Can anyone ffs say SAF played a heavily defensive game as his plan or blame our complete inability to build any organized attack during the second half to SAF plan ? Can anyone say SAF was a defensive minded coach and the game went as he planned ? never, because it's not true. In this final we have been forced to lose possession and go as deep as possible because their midfield was unstoppable and you could never take the possession of ball from Barca for a straight 5 minutes. That wasn't our plan to look "embarrassed" in the second half (as people love this word nowadays). We were forced to do that because it can't be helped. Quality wins in 9 out of 10 of these games. The same happened in this game. It's near impossible to take the ball or keep possession a lot against Kroos, Modric and Isco. They're too fast in their passes and excellent in keeping the ball whatever you try to make they're the ones who will control the tempo of the game with their far, far superior midfield technically.

The result and our performance is normal, and a far better European teams have been slaughtered by this side, whether they attacked or defended. We did what we can with our players and gave a good fight in the last 30 minutes which I'm happy about.

We need to realize that our team is still far from competing on European competition and that's fairly normal. We're a work in progress since Mourinho arrived and we won't be converted from a top 4 challenger only to beating a b2b CL winners and not just beating them, but people want us to dominate them as well ! seriously ?

Mourinho is heavily concentrating on the league this season from the kind of players he's choosing and that's the right direction. If we get a proper and strong title challenge this year, we'll be on the right track and it won't take, maybe one or 2 more years before we start thinking about competing on CL. Now the league is the priority.

 

[Moonred]

We weren't parking the bus yesterday until mid first half when Real started to feck around with us like men v boys. At that point as shown by previous season in the champions league, most teams would do the same.

We intact started well and some of the initial interplay was pretty good.

Real have class all over the pitch (except navas lol) and that eventually was going to show. The difference in wide areas is particularly glaring. Even then, after similar domination at the beginning of the second half, we gradually got back into it. We have some definite weaknesses and lack incisive decision making in the final third which costs us but it was hardly embarrassing.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Madrid were superb but we had some spells of quality football too. Don't just take my word for it. Here's an opinion from someone with no dog in the fight.

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NB. He tweeted those before Fellaini came on.

+1

I thought we did relatively ok. I mean, Real are the best team on the planet at the minute and man for man their team is in another galaxy to ours. But we created enough to draw the game albeit with a little fortune in regards to them not taking their chances.

Lukaku showed some good link up play and scored (showed good composure too I might add, having previously missed and a lot of time to anticipate/think before slotting it in), Matic having looked like he's played in this team for ages and was involved in creating the goal, CBs played good, Mikhi should have had an assist if not for Rashford being unable to finish (but looked lively throughout).

Only frustrations would be no Martial (big concern) and hoofball to Felli, but tbf the latter did well and made himself a nuisance.

We'll do fine against the big PL teams. Need a proper winger though, desperately.

 

[bucky]

Are we supposed to discuss his transfer list in here as well?

 

[LeftyBlaster]

My problem is, we will use the same tactics against teams not even as good as Madrid.
We won't win many big games and I've made my peace with it.

This is what I'm most afraid of!

 

[Striker10]

The super cup would have been nice to win but we have to remember that this group of players is still growing. We have to rebuild our mentality to meet teams like this toe to toe. If we had have attacked and lost 4-1 say.....would people be happy? Perhaps at this time the only chance to win realistically, is to rely on defense and then hit them and it could have worked. We weren't as strong as we should be defensive but Bally/Jones/Rojo/Shaw are a big loss in terms of options.

We are not going to make major leaps over night. We are relying on players stepping up and recapturing form. If we had a Zlatan on the bench say or as an option perhaps we would be more aggressive but in stead we can say we gave them problems. They may have given us more problems if we were too attacking. The madrid players got a lot of fouls/free kicks.

I don't think we made a third sub and I think Jose was happy with the team. Our momentum dipped once they introduced Ronaldo and play started to break up. At the end of the day, we've historically and because of situations not treated the super cup as much and I don't think that will change. We have to focus on the premiership and getting back on top.

I think we've bought well but we need more. Jose recognizes that. We will play some great football but in certain matches, there will be a lot of strategy involved. I would rather that then some of what we did in finals against Barcelona.

 

[E-mal]

@Pogue Mahone you and the others saying we had a decent performance are just trying to distort the truth, we where outclassed and our manager outfoxed by a more positive manager. Sure Madrid are a superior team but our manager never came to play.
I might get criticised for this but am pretty sure city or even Liverpool would have put in a better performance than we did and such negative selection would not have happened with either coach.
Those trying to belittle the super cup should be embarrassed, our manager kept counting the shield last season and EFL cup as trophies, and the supercup is more recognised than either. If it wasn't so important why then the negative selection and team tactics.
My general opinion about Jose is that he is very pragmatic and won't change his ways, hence why players like fellaini and Lingard are important team members. So those expecting different should forget it and those trying to distort facts and paint a different image of him and trying to bring in the one Madrid season in as many years of professional career are just been funny.
This team is not coached on much technical aspect of attacking football, defensively well drilled but not much going forward, unfortunately not much is going to change with the desire to bring someone that cross the ball to Lukaku.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

@Pogue Mahone you and the others saying we had a decent performance are just trying to distort the truth, we where outclassed and our manager outfoxed by a more positive manager. Sure Madrid are a superior team but our manager never came to play.
I might get criticised for this but am pretty sure city or even Liverpool would have put in a better performance than we did and such negative selection would not have happened with either coach.
Those trying to belittle the super cup should be embarrassed, our manager kept counting the shield last season and EFL cup as trophies, and the supercup is more recognised than either. If it wasn't so important why then the negative selection and team tactics.
My general opinion about Jose is that he is very pragmatic and won't change his ways, hence why players like fellaini and Lingard are important team members. So those expecting different should forget it and those trying to distort facts and paint a different image of him and trying to bring in the one Madrid season in as many years of professional career are just been funny.
This team is not coached on much technical aspect of attacking football, defensively well drilled but not much going forward, unfortunately not much is going to change with the desire to bring someone that cross the ball to Lukaku.

And yet we only lost by one goal, whilst creating several chances, and pushing for the equaliser at the end... I don't see how that equates to a) being out classed and b) not playing. Yes we used tactics to navigate around trying to match Madrid on a pure football level, but that's just common sense... because we wouldn't out-football Madrid. If we tried to take them on at their own game, then we'd have properly been outclassed... instead we tried to counter in the first half (which Liverpool and City would also have done I'd reckon) and bypass the Midfield in the second, both of which worked and allowed us to get in on their goal, so whats the commotion?

We lost to the best team in world football and gave them a better game then the team they played in the CL final did... not much shame there I'd say.

 

[Siorac]

The club has an obligation to play and it was a useful pre-season game. As a fan, caring about the result is entirely optional. It's not a match I'd usually even bother watching if we weren't in it, so I wasn't going to pretend it matters now we are.

Charity Shield is the same. Sometimes has a bit of needle if you're up against a rival but everyone knows it's not a trophy worth caring about.

Yeah, the 3-2 against City, with that brilliant passing move and Nani's last minute goal is still a fond memory. So is Hernandez shooting himself in the face to score against Chelsea.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Weird that we hire a manager famous for pragmatic counter-attacking football and people throw a fit of the vapours every time we play pragmatic, counter-attacking football.

There's more than one way to play the game and if anyone finds it somehow morally offensive to approach the strongest opposition the way we did Real Madrid then I would suggest they follow those games on ceefax and spare the rest of us all your belly-aching about "cowardice" and "embarrassment".

 

[pacifictheme]

Real Madrid - Manchester United 2:1

The result flattered United, as Real easily dominated the match, hit the bar twice and were out of sight by the time we woke up. United got into the game after a Navas blunder.

Mourinho tried to park a bus tonight and his emphasis on high defensive work rates, physically imposing players, long ball and crossing to big strikers was completely negated by smaller but more technical players who are comfortable dribbling and moving the ball around. We can do a job in the PL, but won't threaten anyone in the CL. This was a demonstration how big that gap to Europe's elite is.

While the result flattered us, its easy to forget the two excellent break aways we squandered in the first half. Miki's slip when he was seemingly through on goal. And the chance rashford had. And the chances pogba and then lukaku missed.

I'm not saying we deserved anything other than defeat but although real "controlled the game", we had plenty of very good chances. Both teams could have scored more.

 

[Devil77]

All else being equal, some people do not factor in team chemistry.

Last season, more often than not, especially our attackers, Jose kept switching players. I am not saying that I want Jose to stick with same players all the time. My point is, all else being equal, from a lack of team chemistry standpoint, that was also one of the reasons that our attack was so weak. One obvious example is that, at times, our attacker just passed the ball to nobody (expecting someone to run towards the ball). You rarely, rarely see this happen with Real/Barca with consistent attackers of MSN/BBC.

Hopefully this season, Jose will have "more consistency" in choosing his starting XI, that will definitely help build up the team chemistry.

In a 4-3-3, I think the caf's consensus is

------------------Lukaku------------
Martial/Rashford-----------Mkhi---
------------Pogba---Herrera--------
-------------------Matic-------------

The one position that lacks of consensus is LW. Whether it is Martial or Rashford @ LW, give them all some time to gel together, and then judge. Team chemistry doesn't come in a day. It takes some time.

Thoughts ?

Mata for Mkhitaryan. The latter is probably the most uninspiring signing for quite some time.

 

[Yagami]

^^^

As I thought. Despite the "352, oh noes!!!" hysteria we didn't play with three centre-backs. Four at the back, with Valencia getting further forward at RB than Darmian on the opposite flank (which will hopefully change if/when Shaw gets his game).

Basically a 433. Which we'll probably see a lot more of this season.

I'm sure we started the match setup as a 3-5-2, with Darmian as a third CB and Lingard as the LWB. Then, after they scored, we changed to a 4-3-3.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm sure we started the match setup as a 3-5-2, with Darmian as a third CB and Lingard as the LWB. Then, after they scored, we changed to a 4-3-3.

I find it very unlikely that we approached the game with a formation that we intended to change the moment we conceded.

 

[Yagami]

I find it very unlikely that we approached the game with a formation that we intended to change the moment we conceded.

I assumed that our intentions were to hold them off for however long then, due to our superior fitness levels, go on the attack with them being fatigued. Before they scored Darmian was tucked in alongside Smalling and Lindelof with Lingard marking whoever was attacking the right, and after they scored I noticed Lingard staying further up the pitch instead of marking said attacker with Darmian further out wide.

 

[settembrini]

It was 3-5-2 in the first half and 4-3-3 in the second.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I assumed that our intentions were to hold them off for however long then, due to our superior fitness levels, go on the attack with them being fatigued. Before they scored Darmian was tucked in alongside Smalling and Lindelof with Lingard marking whoever was attacking the right, and after they scored I noticed Lingard staying further up the pitch instead of marking said attacker with Darmian further out wide.

It was 3-5-2 in the first half and 4-3-3 in the second.

You're looking at a back four in that image. It would be absolutely identical to Madrid's defence if Darmian showed the same ambition going forwards as the other three full-backs on the pitch (which is something he never seems to do, in any formation).

 

[Yagami]

I'd say, over the course of the whole game, we played with 4 at the back for the majority, which is why the graph you posted @Pogue Mahone is how it is. When did Madrid score? 20 mins in? Until then we were 5 at the back so that'd mean we were 4 at the back for over an hour which highly influences the graph over the course of the game.

 

[Adam-Utd]

You're looking at a back four in that image. It would be absolutely identical to Madrid's defence if Darmian showed the same ambition going forwards as the other three full-backs on the pitch (which is something he never seems to do, in any formation).

We switched from 3-5-2 to a 4-3-3 as soon as Madrid scored.

The 3-5-2 works OK, but when teams have us pressed back we MUST do better to win the ball back and then keep it. So many times when we overturn it we just hoof it straight back to them. Teams like Madrid are too good for that, they will eventually break you down and score like they did.

We made the same errors against Tottenham and Arsenal at the end of the season.

Personally I hope Jose is braver this year and trusts the defence more. There's no excuse to play 3-5-2 and be so defensive. The whole idea of playing an extra CB is to be more risky going forward surely?

 

[RedPnutz]

Weird that we hire a manager famous for pragmatic counter-attacking football and people throw a fit of the vapours every time we play pragmatic, counter-attacking football.

There's more than one way to play the game and if anyone finds it somehow morally offensive to approach the strongest opposition the way we did Real Madrid then I would suggest they follow those games on ceefax and spare the rest of us all your belly-aching about "cowardice" and "embarrassment".

Amen.

 

[Phil Osophy]

You're looking at a back four in that image. It would be absolutely identical to Madrid's defence if Darmian showed the same ambition going forwards as the other three full-backs on the pitch (which is something he never seems to do, in any formation).

I don't think it's so important, but we played with 3 at the back from the start, and changed it in the first half when they scored as Yagami said before.

Before 1-0

http://i.imgur.com/ONT9paJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/mkVNYu6.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZQ9o78o.png
http://i.imgur.com/0w4mxkZ.png

After 1-0

http://i.imgur.com/NCbIZi1.png
http://i.imgur.com/OWnA9nD.png
http://i.imgur.com/cLxvxfu.png
http://i.imgur.com/nLvAE2j.png


You'd know it if you had read the matchday thread.

 

[settembrini]

You're looking at a back four in that image. It would be absolutely identical to Madrid's defence if Darmian showed the same ambition going forwards as the other three full-backs on the pitch (which is something he never seems to do, in any formation).

It wouldn't be identical because Darmian's position is not just further back but also more central. Look at the lines of the penalty box and imagine them extending across the pitch. They would bisect Darmian's circle while Marcelo's, Carvajal's and Valencia's would all be comfortably on the outside. This is because Darmian spent the first half playing as a LCB while the others only played out wide.

In addition look at the position of the centre backs. Madrid played a back four and so Varane and Ramos are equidistant in position relative to the width of the pitch. Now look at ours and see how central Smalling is. That is because he spent the first half playing in the middle of a back three.

I don't know if you watched the game or not but the back three was obvious even from the kick off.


1:15 onwards.

Darmian is at LCB with Smalling in the middle and Lindelof (off camera) to the right. Valencia and Lingard are the two wingbacks.

 

[DWelbz19]

Weird that we hire a manager famous for pragmatic counter-attacking football and people throw a fit of the vapours every time we play pragmatic, counter-attacking football.

I mean, it's obvious why, isn't it? It hasn't worked too well so far in near enough every big game it's been implemented for.

 

[E-mal]

And yet we only lost by one goal, whilst creating several chances, and pushing for the equaliser at the end... I don't see how that equates to a) being out classed and b) not playing. Yes we used tactics to navigate around trying to match Madrid on a pure football level, but that's just common sense... because we wouldn't out-football Madrid. If we tried to take them on at their own game, then we'd have properly been outclassed... instead we tried to counter in the first half (which Liverpool and City would also have done I'd reckon) and bypass the Midfield in the second, both of which worked and allowed us to get in on their goal, so whats the commotion?

We lost to the best team in world football and gave them a better game then the team they played in the CL final did... not much shame there I'd say.

Let's be candid, the result flattered us. We had our moments but on the balance of play we deserved to loose by more margin but for DeGea's heroics.
No shame in loosing to Madrid but if our setup was to counter attack then we did a pretty bad job of it.
My whole submission is about those trying to distort reality or trying to deny what the core principles of our manager is.

Weird that we hire a manager famous for pragmatic counter-attacking football and people throw a fit of the vapours every time we play pragmatic, counter-attacking football.

There's more than one way to play the game and if anyone finds it somehow morally offensive to approach the strongest opposition the way we did Real Madrid then I would suggest they follow those games on ceefax and spare the rest of us all your belly-aching about "cowardice" and "embarrassment".

My point exactly, he is a safety first approach manager and those trying to make him something he is not and expecting the rest of us to accept it as the gospel truth as though we are in Pyongyang should respectfully lay it off.
The issue many have with this sort of approach is that we deploy it against teams not even as good Madrid - city, Liverpool, Tottenham, and arsenal. These sort of approach is exclusively reserved for far superior teams and not the wannabe big teams in the EPL.
This is a united forum and people are allowed to speak their mind albeit in a respectful and reasonable way.

 

[gavdim2002]

The positives of the team is we have athletic and physically fit players in Pogba, lukaku, valenica,rashford ,fellani..etc. What we need is a few more players who are mobile/agile, fast and creative players.

All the way back from Veron up to today’s Mata we have been struggling to apply real world class talent in our team. When playing for us these kind of creative players are deemed “to weak”, to slow”, “immobile” etc. Similar “weak, slow and immobile” players have been outstanding in teams steamrolling us like Barcelona and Real Madrid have don for years now.

Who do we want to be like – WBA or Real?

 

[ManuMou]

Lol @Pogue Mahone. I am not gonna go into details in explaining some technicality/statistical issue that your heat map is not exactly what you see.

I am 100% sure that we started with 3-5-2, and switched to 4-3-3 at some point but not sure when. Apparently, as evidenced by @Phil Osophy post, we switched after 1-0 (I thought it was 2nd half, anyway doesn't really matter).

Before they scored the goal, they basically outclassed us, making us played like 5-3-2 and hence our attack was basically non-existent. We only did better in attack once we switched to 4-3-3 and when Rashford came on.

I thought the 3-5-2 didn't work because
1. Real dominated us, especially the midfield and to a lesser extend on both flanks
2. Our wingbacks were simply not good enough, especially Lingard who was the 1st time playing in a new position, he was awful in both defense and offense, basically non-existent
3. It's new system, Jose and the players are still adapting

We were playing the best team in the world right now. It is too early to judge this 3-5-2 system. I firmly believe Jose will continue trying out this system.

Hopefully we manage to get Perisic/Aurier or any LW/LWB

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I mean, it's obvious why, isn't it? It hasn't worked too well so far in near enough every big game it's been implemented for.

Our record in cup competitions last season tells a different story. Mourinho knows what it takes to win trophies and he's already won us two in his first season in charge. So I'm not seeing much grounds for complaints about his tactical approach in big games tbh. Even in the league, it wasn't the games against the toughest opponents that cost us, it was dropping points at home against cannon fodder that put us out of the title race. Where we generally played a much more open and expansive game than we used against Madrid and ended up dropping points primarily because of woeful finishing.

I just find the moaning about his approach really tiresome. He is what he is. Getting bent out of shape every time we set up to be defensively resolute and and play on the counter is completely pointless. It actually reminds me of all the moaning during Fergie's time when he realised that he needed to be a bit more pragmatic to succeed in Europe. The chants of "attack attack attack", moaning about "Querozzzzzz" and the sacrilege of playing with just one striker. Culminating in group fecking hysteria when we dared to try and play conservatively against the best team in Europe. Away from home.

Some people will never be happy. And that's their perogative. Where it gets ridiculous is when they moan about a manager setting his team up the way he has become famous for always setting his teams up. Get over it. Mourinho's our manager now. He's obviously going to stick with his tried and tested approach. It's still a damn sight more entertaining than what we got used to under his predecessor. People need to suck it up and stop moaning about stuff that won't ever change. That's a waste of everyone's time.

 

[dichinero]

Our record in cup competitions last season tells a different story. Mourinho knows what it takes to win trophies and he's already won us two in his first season in charge. So I'm not seeing much grounds for complaints about his tactical approach in big games tbh. Even in the league, it wasn't the games against the toughest opponents that cost us, it was dropping points at home against cannon fodder that put us out of the title race. Where we generally played a much more open and expansive game than we used against Madrid and ended up dropping points primarily because of woeful finishing.

I just find the moaning about his approach really tiresome. He is what he is. Getting bent out of shape every time we set up to be defensively resolute and and play on the counter is completely pointless. It actually reminds me of all the moaning during Fergie's time when he realised that he needed to be a bit more pragmatic to succeed in Europe. The chants of "attack attack attack", moaning about "Querozzzzzz" and the sacrilege of playing with just one striker. Culminating in group fecking hysteria when we dared to try and play conservatively against the best team in Europe. Away from home.

Some people will never be happy. And that's their perogative. Where it gets ridiculous is when they moan about a manager setting his team up the way he has become famous for always setting his teams up. Get over it. Mourinho's our manager now. He's obviously going to stick with his tried and tested approach. It's still a damn sight more entertaining than what we got used to under his predecessor. People need to suck it up and stop moaning about stuff that won't ever change. That's a waste of everyone's time.

The manager has a responsibility like all playing staff to evolve. Tried and tested is past tense, not now. What he did as the Special One for the other clubs has little consequences in what is happening here and now. LvG stuck what was his 'tried and tested' and it was his stubbornness and reluctance to evolve that ultimately cost him.
We can't keep on using "he's always been pragmatic" as an excuse. It's crazy that we spend over £300m in 12 months and it's ok that the brand of football is pragmatic. I'm not Jose's biggest fan, but he is a big manager, managing the one of the biggest clubs, spent big money and with that must come big expectations. Last year was the year of grace, no excuses this year

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The manager has a responsibility like all playing staff to evolve. Tried and tested is past tense, not now. What he did as the Special One for the other clubs has little consequences in what is happening here and now. LvG stuck what was his 'tried and tested' and it was his stubbornness and reluctance to evolve that ultimately cost him.
We can't keep on using "he's always been pragmatic" as an excuse. It's crazy that we spend over £300m in 12 months and it's ok that the brand of football is pragmatic. I'm not Jose's biggest fan, but he is a big manager, managing the one of the biggest clubs, spent big money and with that must come big expectations. Last year was the year of grace, no excuses this year

Obviously. A repeat of last year's league finish is unacceptable. That goes without saying. Won't stop people saying it, again and again and again, though.

 

[Siorac]

Our record in cup competitions last season tells a different story. Mourinho knows what it takes to win trophies and he's already won us two in his first season in charge. So I'm not seeing much grounds for complaints about his tactical approach in big games tbh. Even in the league, it wasn't the games against the toughest opponents that cost us, it was dropping points at home against cannon fodder that put us out of the title race. Where we generally played a much more open and expansive game than we used against Madrid and ended up dropping points primarily because of woeful finishing.

I just find the moaning about his approach really tiresome. He is what he is. Getting bent out of shape every time we set up to be defensively resolute and and play on the counter is completely pointless. It actually reminds me of all the moaning during Fergie's time when he realised that he needed to be a bit more pragmatic to succeed in Europe. The chants of "attack attack attack", moaning about "Querozzzzzz" and the sacrilege of playing with just one striker. Culminating in group fecking hysteria when we dared to try and play conservatively against the best team in Europe. Away from home.

Some people will never be happy. And that's their perogative. Where it gets ridiculous is when they moan about a manager setting his team up the way he has become famous for always setting his teams up. Get over it. Mourinho's our manager now. He's obviously going to stick with his tried and tested approach. It's still a damn sight more entertaining than what we got used to under his predecessor. People need to suck it up and stop moaning about stuff that won't ever change. That's a waste of everyone's time.

Thing is though his "pragmatic" approach proved to be not very pragmatic at all plenty of times, including the Europa League. Specifically, I mean sitting back and inviting pressure when 1-0 up. It cost us at Rostov, it cost us twice against Anderlecht and it almost put us out of the EL when we were reduced to hanging on for dear life and thanking supernatural beings for Guidetti being a bit clumsy.

I really, really wish we stopped doing that but I know we won't.

 

[Phil Osophy]

About the negative tactics, my main problems are that some people refuses to admit that we're using them, in the first place. And secondly, I don't think this bunch of players have the attributes to excel at playing that kind of passive football. Even against mediocre opposition, we could be playing well last season and after scoring we conceded the ball and part of the field, and then the cracks appeared. We ended up suffering unnecessarily many times instead of keeping the same rhythm an ambition as before.

To play this way we need more mature players with better positional intelligence. For me it's not a surprise that Matic (even without training so much with us) was excellent against Real while people like Lingard, Pogba, Lindelof and some others were lost in the forest. With Pogba it's just a classic in these situations. Even if we leave the aesthetics and 'traditions' aside, I don't think this way of playing benefits this group of players.

We reach a point sometimes where we are simply unable to cross the midfield, and all we do is to concede waves of attacks. Against Real it happened again before the 1-0, and it won't be the last time. I don't expect us to go out there and outplay a team like Real, but between this and being prisoners in our own box there has to be a middle term.

And of course, things like leaving the talent on the bench to play Lingard just encourages the opposition to go forward without fear. Playing quality players and give them a bit of freedom is a good way of defending too, by dissuading the rival team so they don't attack us with all the weapons. I know he's Mourinho and more than probably he won't change a bit, but man, every time I see this team getting into the cave, clearing the ball away and praying to god it makes my blood boil. It's not just something 'ugly' and unpleasant to the eye, I think it's unnecessary and even counterproductive.

 

[CM]

Our record in cup competitions last season tells a different story. Mourinho knows what it takes to win trophies and he's already won us two in his first season in charge. So I'm not seeing much grounds for complaints about his tactical approach in big games tbh. Even in the league, it wasn't the games against the toughest opponents that cost us, it was dropping points at home against cannon fodder that put us out of the title race. Where we generally played a much more open and expansive game than we used against Madrid and ended up dropping points primarily because of woeful finishing.

I just find the moaning about his approach really tiresome. He is what he is. Getting bent out of shape every time we set up to be defensively resolute and and play on the counter is completely pointless. It actually reminds me of all the moaning during Fergie's time when he realised that he needed to be a bit more pragmatic to succeed in Europe. The chants of "attack attack attack", moaning about "Querozzzzzz" and the sacrilege of playing with just one striker. Culminating in group fecking hysteria when we dared to try and play conservatively against the best team in Europe. Away from home.

Some people will never be happy. And that's their perogative. Where it gets ridiculous is when they moan about a manager setting his team up the way he has become famous for always setting his teams up. Get over it. Mourinho's our manager now. He's obviously going to stick with his tried and tested approach. It's still a damn sight more entertaining than what we got used to under his predecessor. People need to suck it up and stop moaning about stuff that won't ever change. That's a waste of everyone's time.

Of course it was. Our record against the rest of the top 6 last season was appalling, especially away from home. We managed one win home and away in 10 games against them and just two points from 5 away games, scoring one goal.

The away games against City and Liverpool were particularly disheartening. We didn't even attempt to win them and were happy to just soak up the pressure and come away with the point. Awful viewing.

 

[dichinero]

Obviously. A repeat of last year's league finish is unacceptable. That goes without saying. Won't stop people saying it, again and again and again, though.

You can't blame some people though. They are tired of suffering and smiling. Personally, my moan comes from the fact that I strongly believe that we can and we should be doing much better, and not just for the sake of moaning.

My diminished confidence starts from the manager if I'm going to be honest. I was in the get Poch in camp and was strongly against José coming in. I made an emotional bet that we finish out of the top 4 but win the EL. I wasn't pleased but I felt somewhat vindicated in my decision against José. For someone like me, I'm waiting to be convinced by him BUT I still hope that he produces the goods because we are Manchester United

A slightly evolved José and I think he'd be perfect. Old dog, new tricks?