Last 15 games away to the Premier League Big Six in all competitions;
Won: 1
Drawn: 6
Lost: 8
Goals: 8
Damning.
Won: 1
Drawn: 6
Lost: 8
Goals: 8
Damning.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Thing is though, if they’re in a fluid 4-3-3 they seem to be able to do so. It’s almost invariably in this wretched 4-2-3-1 where they look so clueless. Problem is, the latter is Jose’s default formation.
He started with the right line up, which everyone was happy with before the game, except maybe for Martial on the right.
The first goal literally changed the game and our players looked embarrassing running around the pitch trying so hard to get back in the game when they had 89 mins to do so, then super Jones made the second mistake and everything collapsed.
I blame him for the entire subs though, he made more mess out of a terrible situation, taking lingard off was a very strange call.
Pogba for us is like Messi to Barca, he shouldn't be ever taken off, at least until there is a replacement who is better than shit Pogs, which we don't have at the moment.
It was clear after the subs that keeping it 2-0 is the best hope we have, midfield became wide open and we stopped creating any successful attacks, at least until the 80th min when I stopped watching
The first goal literally changed the game and our players looked embarrassing running around the pitch trying so hard to get back in the game when they had 89 mins to do so, then super Jones made the second mistake and everything collapsed.
I blame him for the entire subs though, he made more mess out of a terrible situation, taking lingard off was a very strange call.
Pogba for us is like Messi to Barca, he shouldn't be ever taken off, at least until there is a replacement who is better than shit Pogs, which we don't have at the moment.
It was clear after the subs that keeping it 2-0 is the best hope we have, midfield became wide open and we stopped creating any successful attacks, at least until the 80th min when I stopped watching
Even more so when the one win came against the weakest of that lot. And especially when our goals tally is also shocking in such fixtures.
Van Gaal's ten away matches to the other 'top six' with United for sake of interest:
W: 4
D: 2
L: 4
Goals: 7
Yeah. My concern though is how much of it is instructed and how much of it is the players not being good enough on the ball. I think it's a bit of both and comes to a wider issue that it just doesn't feel like there's as much of an understanding in the team as you would expect. When you look at the other teams around us it feels like as teams they're on the same wavelength but that they have issues with individual players i.e. Arsenal/Liverpool with their defences. With us I just can't shake the feeling that whilst there are some problems with the players and injuries to some i.e. Bailly haven't helped, that we're still not quite getting as much out of our best players as we should be.
I am surprised though that we don't see Herrera more in the big games. Know he had a bit of a rough patch this season but thought he would have done enough last season for Mou too see his value in these sorts of games as an extra man in the middle who could then release Pogba as well.
To defend Mourinho slightly the big teams are way stronger than they were when Van Gaal was in charge. That being said this was supposed to be a huge strength of his and we've generally been shit in these big games, even the win at the Emirates was a bit of a fluke.
Schooled by Poch. Tottenham were better than us in every aspect of the game.
With a record like that against big clubs, who are we going to beat over two legs in the CL? Jose is a fraud.
Sack him I say, I hear Conte will be available soon!
We show signs of being disjointed in every game and it really becomes obvious in big games when we stand in contrast to teams that play with some semblance of attacking structure and defences that can pass out of pressure.
Sanchez alone was never going to fix these. An attacking coach on the technical staff wouldn't be bad. Teams don't freestyle their attacks anymore
Sanchez alone was never going to fix these. An attacking coach on the technical staff wouldn't be bad. Teams don't freestyle their attacks anymore
It was that whingy little bitch Owen Hargreaves, you should know better.
I expect us to be able to string 2 passes together and have some idea going forward.
You get to play at home in the CL, which balances things out.
Apart from the individual mistakes, the defeat today is largely down to Jose today. I have defended him all season but he got his tactics and setup all wrong. I think he felt pressurised to start 4 attackers, as Jesse and Martial were in undroppable form and Lukaku and Alexis are big money signings.
That being said, I don’t think we have the players that would have really made a system change produce a significant impact on our performance today. The big problem was the high intensity press that Spurs used and the inability of the defence, especially Jones, Smalling and Young, to bring out the ball. At one point of time, Spurs left Smalling on his own and marked the other receivers. His clueness on the ball was really funny to watch.
On top of that, our midfielders really didn’t make themselves available for a pass. What we needed was a prime Carrick type player who would relieve the pressure from defence and help build up the play. Unfortunately, neither Herrera nor Fellaini are up to that job.
That being said, I don’t think we have the players that would have really made a system change produce a significant impact on our performance today. The big problem was the high intensity press that Spurs used and the inability of the defence, especially Jones, Smalling and Young, to bring out the ball. At one point of time, Spurs left Smalling on his own and marked the other receivers. His clueness on the ball was really funny to watch.
On top of that, our midfielders really didn’t make themselves available for a pass. What we needed was a prime Carrick type player who would relieve the pressure from defence and help build up the play. Unfortunately, neither Herrera nor Fellaini are up to that job.
Had a mare today but he was just hailed as a miracle worker just a few days ago in getting Sanchez.
He went too attacking and switching Martial (our most in form attacker) to the opposite wing was dumb.
But he is trying something different with getting a new world class attacker.
If we lost 1 nil and parked the bus people would be fuming too.
Jose got it wrong but will learn from this. Looks like back to bus parking in big games.
He went too attacking and switching Martial (our most in form attacker) to the opposite wing was dumb.
But he is trying something different with getting a new world class attacker.
If we lost 1 nil and parked the bus people would be fuming too.
Jose got it wrong but will learn from this. Looks like back to bus parking in big games.
He needs to look at who our best players are and just build a team that gets the best out of them.
IMO it seems so simple.
433 would get the best out of a lot of people. Looking ahead, and whos fit and whos available, 433 imo would work all the way through.
DDG obviously.
Valencia Jones Rojo Shaw
Jones plays best at RCB. Rojo is our best (and probably only) player at LCB. Shaw as a right footed natural left back.
Herrera Matic and Pogba.
Herrera best games imo, have come in a midfield three and normally on the right. Matic needs cover and help. Pogba is freed up on the left and closer to the opposition goal with less duty to cover back.
Sanchez Lukaku Martial.
This could be debatable as you could go Lingard Martial Sanchez (or similar).
But Martial has his best games when hes closer to their goal and he does that in a 433 rather than a 4231.
Sanchez needs to be there.
Lukaku is often isolated in 4231 in big games. In 433 he has players closer to him.
I think we need to do that and maybe stick to that for most big games and away games.
And for home games where we will see more of the ball have 4231 with pogba deeper and mata or lingard in there (and take out herrera)
IMO it seems so simple.
433 would get the best out of a lot of people. Looking ahead, and whos fit and whos available, 433 imo would work all the way through.
DDG obviously.
Valencia Jones Rojo Shaw
Jones plays best at RCB. Rojo is our best (and probably only) player at LCB. Shaw as a right footed natural left back.
Herrera Matic and Pogba.
Herrera best games imo, have come in a midfield three and normally on the right. Matic needs cover and help. Pogba is freed up on the left and closer to the opposition goal with less duty to cover back.
Sanchez Lukaku Martial.
This could be debatable as you could go Lingard Martial Sanchez (or similar).
But Martial has his best games when hes closer to their goal and he does that in a 433 rather than a 4231.
Sanchez needs to be there.
Lukaku is often isolated in 4231 in big games. In 433 he has players closer to him.
I think we need to do that and maybe stick to that for most big games and away games.
And for home games where we will see more of the ball have 4231 with pogba deeper and mata or lingard in there (and take out herrera)
Individually our team is up to standard and much better than say 3-4 years ago. In my opinion today's team individually also is better than the team Sir Alex left us with. The issue here is that we do not seem to have plan(s) coached into our players; hence they are running around as individual on a big pitch often agains well coached teams with a plan or two ...
For the big games I would always bench either Lingard or Martial and add a real midfielder into the mix. We need to make certain that the midfield is stable enough to cope with Pogba driving us forward and not play him as deep as we did today, defensively I simply feel he isn't good enough to effectively function in a double pivot in the 4-2-3-1. We can play like today against the smaller teams, add pressing into the mix and try to overrun them but against the bigger teams we need to make certain we aren't getting overrun in midfield.
I can see the logic of his selection.
Feed off the Sanchez signing buzz with confidence flowing in the team, and go attacking with just Pogba and Matic in midfield. Spurs play open anyway so if you can attack them consistently with enough quality, you should be able to beat them. Hence not keeping a deep back line and trying to be on the front foot.
It worked for that spell after the opening goal, we just conceded at bad times. After the second the confidence was shot and no going back.
Feed off the Sanchez signing buzz with confidence flowing in the team, and go attacking with just Pogba and Matic in midfield. Spurs play open anyway so if you can attack them consistently with enough quality, you should be able to beat them. Hence not keeping a deep back line and trying to be on the front foot.
It worked for that spell after the opening goal, we just conceded at bad times. After the second the confidence was shot and no going back.
No excuse not to play a 4-3-3 with the way Tottenham plays, with space, movement through the middle, and quick counters off the high pressure. You need mobile defensive players to guard against that. Our back 4 was exposed from the start of the game with our double pivot. Matic isn't mobile enough/too lazy I'm, & Pogba is usually poor in his defensive positioning. Not sure what Jose was thinking here. Alexis doesn't change how you setup defensively against the top teams away.
We have to play a 4-3-3 with Herrera as the anchor, Matic as the playmaker, and Pogba with a free role. Pick Sanchez, Lukaku, and Martial ahead of them. If we don't do that our performance against the top 6 will continue to suffer. Let's see how long it takes for Jose to figure out his dinosaur tactics. 4-3-3 is the most efficient way to cover space especially when you don't have quick mobile midfielders. We get away with 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams controlling more of the possession, and playing most of the game in the opposing half.
We have to play a 4-3-3 with Herrera as the anchor, Matic as the playmaker, and Pogba with a free role. Pick Sanchez, Lukaku, and Martial ahead of them. If we don't do that our performance against the top 6 will continue to suffer. Let's see how long it takes for Jose to figure out his dinosaur tactics. 4-3-3 is the most efficient way to cover space especially when you don't have quick mobile midfielders. We get away with 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams controlling more of the possession, and playing most of the game in the opposing half.
The players were not doing what he wanted them to do and he rightly took off Pogba.
I wasn't expecting much from today. I was hoping we could maybe get a draw. I expected to lose, especially that Spurs had that setback in the FA Cup and would be really up for it. But...
...this was a disaster. The first goal was something the players needed to be alert for, that can't be blamed on anybody but them. But what was the lineup that Mourinho put out?
It's plainly obvious by now that Pogba should be in a 3, not in a 2 that pretty much leaves Matic alone to defend. Matic IMO is practically a shallow center half who protects the deep areas while Pogba was signed to get forward and create opportunities for the attackers. Even if he could defend well, he should have protection behind him that allows him to use his talents fully. Players at other clubs like De Bruyne, Hazard, Vidal etc. have to defend periodically but they play with a balanced MF behind them that allows them to concentrate on what they were signed to do.
There needs to be a 3rd midfielder in there who can work between the deep sitter and attacker. Herrera ATM is the best player we have to do that. Whether you think he's good enough is another matter but he's the best we have and he should be starting in big games. It's fine to play 2 in the MF against teams that sit back most of the game like West Brom but definitely not games like this. The way Spurs were able to bear down on our backline was frightening.
And why is Luke Shaw on the bench again? If he's to have any future with us, he simply has to play and prove himself. I think he's been more than good enough to have started instead of Young, who was a liability.
I totally expected to find Martial on the right before the team sheet came out. I think if he was in anything less than very good form, he would have been on the bench and Mata would've started on the right wing again, or maybe Lingard. To be fair, he was also poor on the left after switching but it was pointless to move him out of position from the start when the right has been our weaker side for ages.
And by the way, I think Sanchez was a completely unneeded signing, which I kept to myself during all of the hoopla last week. There's no doubt he's a very good player but we've brought in a 30-year-old on a big contract while maybe upsetting the balance of our squad and our wage structure. Who knows if Pogba starts to look for brighter pastures if he feels he's being short-changed?
...this was a disaster. The first goal was something the players needed to be alert for, that can't be blamed on anybody but them. But what was the lineup that Mourinho put out?
It's plainly obvious by now that Pogba should be in a 3, not in a 2 that pretty much leaves Matic alone to defend. Matic IMO is practically a shallow center half who protects the deep areas while Pogba was signed to get forward and create opportunities for the attackers. Even if he could defend well, he should have protection behind him that allows him to use his talents fully. Players at other clubs like De Bruyne, Hazard, Vidal etc. have to defend periodically but they play with a balanced MF behind them that allows them to concentrate on what they were signed to do.
There needs to be a 3rd midfielder in there who can work between the deep sitter and attacker. Herrera ATM is the best player we have to do that. Whether you think he's good enough is another matter but he's the best we have and he should be starting in big games. It's fine to play 2 in the MF against teams that sit back most of the game like West Brom but definitely not games like this. The way Spurs were able to bear down on our backline was frightening.
And why is Luke Shaw on the bench again? If he's to have any future with us, he simply has to play and prove himself. I think he's been more than good enough to have started instead of Young, who was a liability.
I totally expected to find Martial on the right before the team sheet came out. I think if he was in anything less than very good form, he would have been on the bench and Mata would've started on the right wing again, or maybe Lingard. To be fair, he was also poor on the left after switching but it was pointless to move him out of position from the start when the right has been our weaker side for ages.
And by the way, I think Sanchez was a completely unneeded signing, which I kept to myself during all of the hoopla last week. There's no doubt he's a very good player but we've brought in a 30-year-old on a big contract while maybe upsetting the balance of our squad and our wage structure. Who knows if Pogba starts to look for brighter pastures if he feels he's being short-changed?
This is pretty much the crux of the matter. Individually we have a pretty great team bar the odd upgrades needed. The issue comes from how Mourinho is clearly coaching this squad, or lack thereof, it's no secret he doesn't seemingly coach his teams in an attacking sense but this seems to be a huge problem, the last 15 games away to the Top 6 in this league in all competitions is a staggering 1 win out of 15, 6 draws and 8 losses. I'm sick and tired of hearing 'well he clearly needs to put his stamp on the team', 'this isn't his team give him more money', 'he needs more time to get it right', the vast majority of managers work with what they have and upgrade what they have, and have done so in their first season or two, you can argue that yes, individually some players have clearly upped their game since he's got hold of them, but as a team I wouldn't say this is the case at all. Is it better than the Moyes/Van Gaal era? Yes, sure, not very difficult though is it? As far as i'm concerned, yes, we are second, but is that a reflection on how good we've been this season or just how poor everyone below City has been? It's the latter, i mean we can still conceivably end up 5th at this rate.
At the end of the day, i get behind the manager and the team because I support this club and the club seems to trust him, no matter how absolutely dire the football can be sometimes. But it's because i'm a supporter of the club that I believe he is not the right man to take us forward and into the future and I've said this for a while, it's not a kneejerk reaction to this result. What should of happened is, instead of slapping a contract extension on him mid season, we should of waited to see how the end of this season panned out first and made a rationale decision based on that. We have a team of some of the greatest attacking talent, Rashford, Lingard, Martial, Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku, added on top of young talent like Shaw, Bailly, TFM, Pereira, Lindelof and so on, and I feel like, particularly attacking wise, it's being wasted to a big degree.
I can't honestly be the only one wondering what the likes of Tuchel or Jardim could accomplish with this team and with the resources behind them to implement their extremely good attacking coaching on this squad now and well into the future, unfortunately what I see happening instead is all these managers getting snapped up by Bayern, Arsenal and probably Chelsea now, I'm pretty sure a few of you believe he isn't the Mourinho of old, whether that's personality wise or even if his tactical approach is outdated now, quite frankly I believe it is, particularly in the big games, the stats prove it.
He's tried to play Poch at his own attacking game today and it's backfired massively, he got schooled. Basically, something needs to change, and for me, the answer isn't to go out and buy more players in the summer and see where that takes us.
There’s a decent argument for tonight being the worst performance under his reign and Southampton at home last month was shambolic. I’ve no doubt we’ve made progress in that under Van Gaal an off day would be where we played well but Jose still isn’t doing well enough. He changes the team around too often and we underperform too often. His big game record here is utter wank.
I think he has problems motivating the team. He certainly has about a tenth of the charisma he had when he first arrived in England.
I think he has problems motivating the team. He certainly has about a tenth of the charisma he had when he first arrived in England.
Got to put some blame on Mourinho.
1st Half: Wrong formation, playing 4231 with Pogba in deeper role. Martial who has been superb played on the right instead of left.
2nd Half: I don't know what kind of team talk he did during halftime but all of sudden we played worse and our players don't seem to be motivated to actually win the game. He also didn't make any substitution which I expected him to do since we were 2-0 down. Sir Alex would never make zero changes when his team is 2-0 behind in half time.
1st Half: Wrong formation, playing 4231 with Pogba in deeper role. Martial who has been superb played on the right instead of left.
2nd Half: I don't know what kind of team talk he did during halftime but all of sudden we played worse and our players don't seem to be motivated to actually win the game. He also didn't make any substitution which I expected him to do since we were 2-0 down. Sir Alex would never make zero changes when his team is 2-0 behind in half time.
That's what happens when you employ a has-been who insists on living in a Hotel
Forget the formations and the players, what exactly is our style of football. Its not attacking football, neither is it defensive football, we look like a side that is incompetent at doing both those things. Players look extremely disjointed, and we just look clueless most of the time in these games and that is down to the manager.
This is a problem that has been apparent for a while now, we manage to win games against worse teams simply because we have superior players, and that individual quality is enough most of those times. But anytime we come up against a half decent or top side we struggle, especially against the top sides. I can't remember the last time we dominated a game against a top side, every game is pretty much the same story, no matter the players or formation picked. We sometimes scrape results, but every single time without fail we are outclassed and out performed by a large margin.
We struggle to build play and string passes together, we have no cohesion to our play, our tempo is slow and tumescent. The players always look devoid of confidence and hesitate and eventually we resort to hoofing, and without Fellaini that never works. As if that's not bad enough, we don't even look defensively well drilled. Teams outplay us easily, and it is ridiculous at the ease of which they attack. We apply no pressure from the front, teams easily build from the back, with even their defenders pushing into midfield, where we are usually outnumbered because of their numbers. Pretty much every team manages to play through us, but it becomes very evident against a top side, and considering that this happens regardless of which personnel we choose and which formation we play, the finger can only be pointed at Mourinho.
People need to stop making excuses about Jose, Pogba is not great defensively, but he is not lazy. We see Pep managing to convert KDB into a CM, and he was a fully fledged AM. They have a midfield consisting of KDB, Fernandinho and Silva and it works, and that is not down to personnel but tactics.
We are reaching a point where Jose is running out of excuses for these abysmal performances. I am sure that in the next window we will buy even more players, but if our tactics and cohesion as a team don't improve, then I can't see great improvements in the future. Just buying better players is not going magically improve us and transform us into a top team.
This is a problem that has been apparent for a while now, we manage to win games against worse teams simply because we have superior players, and that individual quality is enough most of those times. But anytime we come up against a half decent or top side we struggle, especially against the top sides. I can't remember the last time we dominated a game against a top side, every game is pretty much the same story, no matter the players or formation picked. We sometimes scrape results, but every single time without fail we are outclassed and out performed by a large margin.
We struggle to build play and string passes together, we have no cohesion to our play, our tempo is slow and tumescent. The players always look devoid of confidence and hesitate and eventually we resort to hoofing, and without Fellaini that never works. As if that's not bad enough, we don't even look defensively well drilled. Teams outplay us easily, and it is ridiculous at the ease of which they attack. We apply no pressure from the front, teams easily build from the back, with even their defenders pushing into midfield, where we are usually outnumbered because of their numbers. Pretty much every team manages to play through us, but it becomes very evident against a top side, and considering that this happens regardless of which personnel we choose and which formation we play, the finger can only be pointed at Mourinho.
People need to stop making excuses about Jose, Pogba is not great defensively, but he is not lazy. We see Pep managing to convert KDB into a CM, and he was a fully fledged AM. They have a midfield consisting of KDB, Fernandinho and Silva and it works, and that is not down to personnel but tactics.
We are reaching a point where Jose is running out of excuses for these abysmal performances. I am sure that in the next window we will buy even more players, but if our tactics and cohesion as a team don't improve, then I can't see great improvements in the future. Just buying better players is not going magically improve us and transform us into a top team.
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Makes it all a bit difficult looking forward to these big games. Not only are the results abysmal we are also playing incredibly shit football in them
Sadly most can't see it and figure he's done some fantastic job cause he's invested heavily on the team, managed to win a couple of second rate trophies and is lying in second place a country mile away from the first placed team. Looking hopeless in the vast majority big games which is a big problem given we have 10 of them in a season. At this rate, how many of those 30 can we honestly expect to get each season when we either park the bus and hope for a draw or attack and get outplayed? Forget an actually cohesive team, when was the last time we saw this side play with great intensity? we seem to be outworked by each and every team.
Exactly, for all the talent we have, we really should be doing better. I am not really obsessed about the results, but if we are going to lose, then I at least want to see the team play decently well and put up a fight. I do not want us to be completely outclassed and humiliated in every big game.
Exactly just chucking more money to get more players won't solve anything, our problems start and end in the coaching room.
Mou is the problem!
I have been saying this for a while now and I stand behind my view even though I get a lot of hate for that. His record against the other big teams in the league since joining us is a shame! We look like school kids playing against some football aliens every time we face a side we should be on par with or even slightly above.
His coaching style is outdated and the fact that he (1 1/2 years in) still doesn't know how to utilize our best players (Pogba and Martial) in the best way possible just shows that he isn't able to adapt his style to the players he's got bur rather tries to press them into a style which was played a decade ago.
As long as we are stuck with him we won't win anything notable. Maybe a Mickey Mouse cup here and there but we'll always fail in the big games...
I have been saying this for a while now and I stand behind my view even though I get a lot of hate for that. His record against the other big teams in the league since joining us is a shame! We look like school kids playing against some football aliens every time we face a side we should be on par with or even slightly above.
His coaching style is outdated and the fact that he (1 1/2 years in) still doesn't know how to utilize our best players (Pogba and Martial) in the best way possible just shows that he isn't able to adapt his style to the players he's got bur rather tries to press them into a style which was played a decade ago.
As long as we are stuck with him we won't win anything notable. Maybe a Mickey Mouse cup here and there but we'll always fail in the big games...
The worst part? The approach hasn't changed incredibly in a single one of those games.
His outdated style of football is effective in leagues where you have 1, 2 contenders at best and where you can afford to have a slip-up against those teams. In conditions like that you can afford to go missing in 2 odd games a season and win points on your attacking talent improvising alone.
This has been a problem for a while now, it is not even new. Our lack of cohesion and tempo in attack, our lack of intensity and effort in defense, and lack of a general style of play and game plan in general is a recurring problem. It usually is overlooked because we manage to get results against worse teams overall on just better individual quality, but it is very painfully exposed against the top teams.
Even there you can't allow that if you want to win the league - just ask Atleti for example. Mou plays like he's coaching a mid-table team and just wants to reduce the damage in games against the big boys. This is what makes me angry because he makes us look like scared kids! The contract extension was the worst decision that has happened for quiate a while - I really hoped he would be gone at the end of the season.
Maybe PSG is stupid eneough to try and lure him away in the summer...
At this point some on the caf might begin to question whether it's the coaching rather than the personel. Not sure buying more players will change much.
The game changes after conceding the first goal. The players are 100% responsible for that type of goal.
Whatever tactical plan was in place is far harder to do when chasing the game.
Whatever tactical plan was in place is far harder to do when chasing the game.
Last 15 games away to the Premier League Big Six in all competitions;
Won: 1
Drawn: 6
Lost: 8
Goals: 8
He seems a slow learner.
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