Jose was the wrong fit - Staying true to Busby's mantra will be the key to reclaiming glory

[red4ever 79]

I think Gary Neville nailed it recently - Mourinho has been brought in to deliver a PL title by any means necessary, regardless of how it is achieved. He probably won't stay more than a few seasons in any case, so it's a short-term move to (hopefully) get United back on track.

He wont deliver a title going down the road he is. Our striker had zero touches in the opposition box yesterday. His record away from home against the top 6 is awful

 

[Santoryo]

Exceptional reading, but based on the discussions I've had on here most United fans seem to think winning is entertaining in itself no matter what kind of football you play, so they kind of embrace this difficuly quest of winning big while playing small.

The only problem is that winning playing nice football is better than winning playing ugly football, and losing playing nice football better than losing playing shit on a stick football.

United's approach to Mourinho screams of poor mentality imo.

Exactly.

Also the problem with winning while playing shit football is that results have to be coming because people are willing to sit through horrible football because the reward is winning. So when winning becomes hard the manager is under massive pressure because the onus was on winning if he was going to serve shit football.

A manager having his team play decent football can buy himself time and grace even when results are mixed because that sort of football will always or at least most of the time lead to a stable and dominant team once the proper time has been invested.

A manager who get mixed results while serving bad football doesn't really have anything else to offer because with such football there is no future or long term plan for people to be patient and wait for something to finally blossom.

 

[Harry190]

Not sure why the 2008 football is the reference. 1999 was an absolute peak of football, both in terms of quality, entertainment, passion and winning ways.

 

[Smithy_123]

The reason people get so annoyed is exactly because of this.

If we win 1-0 and play ugly it's okay because we get the 3 points. The end justifies the means. It's how Mourinho has managed to have a very successful career.

If we lose playing the same way, it's unacceptable. If we lose playing entertaining football then it's bearable and this forum isn't as quite in a uproar.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

What was Busby's mantra exactly?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The reason people get so annoyed is exactly because of this.

If we win 1-0 and play ugly it's okay because we get the 3 points. The end justifies the means. It's how Mourinho has managed to have a very successful career.

If we lose playing the same way, it's unacceptable. If we lose playing entertaining football then it's bearable and this forum isn't as quite in a uproar.

Any examples of that which come to mind? I’ll be honest. I’m struggling.

 

[CG1010]

I am not sure entertaining football is anyway correlated to being able to win the league. When we were doing both in Fergie's time, we were the top dogs in financial terms, and could afford to pick out the best talent in the league, even from the likes of Spurs, etc. Now there are multiple clubs vying for the same players, and the good players are themselves more spread out. It is unfair to compare that period to this.

Plus the OP says that ultimately a manager must entertain people. But I saw Jose playing a more expansive brand of football yesterday against Chelsea, and the game was quite open for large parts of the game, comparing to big match standards. But clearly because it is too tough to overwhelm Chelsea on their own ground, and we are not good enough, we got pinned back and could not create enough clear cut chances. I don't see too people expressing happiness at the 'entertainment' being displayed yesterday simply because it was the other side which created more attacking opportunities. So what is being demanded is winning, while playing in a swashbuckling way. Which is simply unfair given the level of our team.

 

[Raees]

Nice post @Raees.

My short view on this:

Mourinho is needed now. We've forgot what it is like to win things and we were left with a squad which wasn't good enough to win, let alone play beautiful football while still winning. He doesn't mind spending and he has a good eye in the market. Most importantly, he's a winner who will instill the winning habit again at the club. Anyone who's honest with himself always knew this appointment was all about getting back to winning ways rather than getting back to swashbuckling football. We shouldn't be surprised as that's how it's panning out. Mourinho has always played this way especially in tough away games. He's not changed, it's just some of us complaining that he hasn't.

I don't think mourinho will be here too long, he just doesn't seem to have the mindset to last long. He'll be gone in a few years. What I want is to have a top squad by then and have won things so that the incoming manager can take the next step towards winning with more style than having it all to do.

No idea how the scene would look like in a few years when he leaves so it's tough to say who the best fit would be then so I won't speculate on that but that's how I see or hope it pans out.

Ultimately, we want to enjoy the way our club plays football. As you said, it'd be great to not have to debate endlessly on winning vs entertainment as if it's a choice. A club with our resources has no excuse to not be able to do both.

For now though, I think we need to be patient and hope we can get back to winning ways again and build a top squad while playing good football for a majority of the games. We can make the next step after that.

@Varun

I agree that in theory, there is nothing wrong with that but for me I have question marks as to whether this brand of football is capable of landing a league title in the current climate let alone a Champions League. If he manages to pull it off, so be it and the ends justify the means in the short term and the winning mentality will indeed be put in place. But, the results suggest that this style of football is becoming more and more outdated by the day and that ultimately it isn't going to lead to a title win or a CL triumph and then where will that leave us.. still further adrift from our domestic and continental rivals, still having to put a new playing system together and starting from scratch again in terms of philosophy. We are lucky all our domestic rivals seem to be in a mess bar City, but having to rely on other teams failures rather than our own successes is not a great position to be in.

His eye for a player and his ruthlessness is for me, whilst certainly better than Moyes/Van Gaal, not quite what it used to be and he has allowed problem positions to fester instead of fixing them ASAP and I don't think he thought through the Lukaku v Morata purchase clearly. The whole situation with the still living in a hotel, the stuff about PSG, attacking the fans.. something still doesn't smell right and it strikes me as a manager who isn't quite at his best and trying to hedge his bets and feeling insecure.

FWIW I don't think this situation is irredeemable but Jose needs to do some soul-searching. He needs to use the clubs ethos as a power for good, to rectify some of his own current short-comings and come through this period as a better manager. I am sure we would all be content with a top 4 season, as long as by the end of the season we saw improvements in the way we play and a more ruthless hungrier Jose who is really making the right calls and making us a vibrant outfit, even if he still wants us to counter in big games away etc.. as long as there is verve and passion, and energy in our displays, we can accept less than beautiful football and we will have the belief that we can win with this football. Right now I am seeing shit and ineffective football.. its like watching England in qualifiers and that I am afraid is not going to win us feck all outside of minor trophies.

 

[DavidLayland]

In the latter years of Fergie's reign, I was beginning to fall out of love with the way we were approaching the game. It felt like the grand old master - all too aware his time was coming to an end, sold his soul to the devil and was desperate to squeeze out the last remnants of silverware out of the side he had spent the last vestiges of his managerial career masterfully creating rather than plan for the future and put the fans first like he had always done.

Sir Alex for all his limitations tactically (overstated somewhat), always had it in him to produce rip-roaring sides that could take the breath away. Excitement down the flanks, fast direct possession play through the centre, flair in the final third, blood and thunder football played at a furious pace... but beautiful too, 'playground' football at its finest. Whilst clubs like Real Madrid and Barca have produced football that the gods would admire..elegant, mature, intelligent but possession focused.. United have always played a more earthier brand of attacking football, more raw, youthful, gritty but accessible.. fearless, pulsating breakneck speed football which gives individuals a platform to rewrite the game as they wish without needing to conform.

This gave way to pragmatism, championing more limited amiable efficient footballers like Valencia on the wings over more exotic yet unpredictable wingers like Nani. In 2008/09, it was the defence which led us to the title and the entertainment factor became secondary to success. Younger more exotic talents like Pique, Pogba or Rossi.. struggled to transition into the first team set up as the patience wasn't there to blood talented young players. The focus was on who could do a job for the here and now. For the first time in Fergie's reign, entertainment and winning football was no longer going hand in hand.. confronted with the fact that the side would need to be rebuilt and reinvested in heavily in order to revitalise the 2006-08 side in an attacking sense, a decision was made to win on the cheap and sacrifice beautiful football in the process. The side if playing in a certain pragmatic style was still capable of winning honours, but if attempts were made to play in the manner of old.. without Ronaldo at his swashbuckling best, it would not be successful and Fergie couldn't afford to go years without success again, his time at the top was running out and he chose the short term fix which would maximise his chances of filling his trophy cabinet in the few years he had left.

Now there is no reason why those last 3-4 years of Sir Alex's reign should have been allowed to symbolise the current malaise the club finds itself in. So what if the club endured a few years of slightly below par football and entertainment, it was still successful and with his replacement, we could surely reset the style back in line with Busby's mantra and press ahead at full speed, once again combining exciting entertaining football with winning football.. ultimately that was what United stood for, what its fame was built on. Fergie may have lost his way somewhat but this was the true heir to Busby who for 23 of his 27 years of managing the club, always aspired to play the right way and win... managing to combine both in arguably the most impressive managerial reign of all time at any club.

We all know what happened next. First came Moyes and then Van Gaal. We don't need reminding of the intricate ins and outs of their reign, but ultimately the club betrayed its principles and chose to take an alternate route to success. Now maybe the club felt that these managers would come in and ultimately adapt their methods, taking into account the clubs mantra but as we know leopards don't change their spots and what these leaders did was to try and mould the club to their vision and philosophy of how the game should be played and ultimately failed. Manchester United, was simply too big an institution, its history and folklore too strong to try and tame...

• Moyes' pragmatic football was more in line with Sir Alex's last 4 years but what he didn't realise was that the squad was too far gone by this stage and what it needed was a major rebuild -something far beyond his calling. He was neither a winner nor was he capable of producing exciting football.. an exceptionally bad fit for this club and a truly awful selection by the powers that be at the time.

• Van Gaal was more of a winner and capable of more attractive football to a point, but once again the club erred gravely. Upon closer inspection, this was a man who believed in a very pragmatic philosophy of football albeit couched in a possession-based mantra rather than in purely defensive terms. To the uneducated eye, he was able to produce sophisticated football teams that could compete with the top european teams and produced a legendary Ajax side of the 90s but this was an anti-Cruyffian manager who believed in conservative passing and eliminating mistakes on the ball. Not to mention in terms of winning major trophies, he hadn't really won anything of major significance for 5 years and the last time he won CL was 1995. So in essence we had appointed a relic of the past, who was capable of winning in the past and producing decent football in the past, but was now not really an uber-winner and lacked the ability to produce good football due to his dogmatic philosophy becoming increasingly negative in nature. Another awful managerial selection by the powers that be.

Which brings us to the modern day. We had an opportunity with the departure of Van Gaal, to return to our roots, our mantra and try to put entertainment and winning football joint first in terms of priority. Once again, we chose to betray our mantra and go for the winning football only option. Now in our first season, we won two trophies which was great but from an entertainment perspective it was below par to what United fans were accustomed to pre 2009. This year we seemed to start with a bang, but goals tally aside, in terms of performance levels.. and commitment to unadulterated attacking football, first few weeks aside, it would take a very rose-tinted Mourinho fan to argue the side was on the whole playing with real verve and fluidity in the final third. Then came Anfield and this current spell of results which lifted the blinds, and exposed our football (or lack thereof) in all its glory.

Once again the United machine has come unstuck.. fans in despair, rival supporter factions at a crossroad. Some arguing the club is on the right track and needs to focus on being pragmatic to restore the club on the path to success, others arguing they would rather see good football and to hell with winning at all costs.. but both factions are only at war because the powers that be, have repeatedly betrayed the club and lack the vision and direction to realise that sometimes for success to occur, the culture of the club needs to be respected and we need to look at what the club stands for.. what the recipe for success is at this club and stick to it, rather than trying to create a massive upheaval and take the club in the opposite direction.

When we were confronted with Arsenal of the 90's or early 00's. Instead of copying their style of football... or playing super negative football, we fought fire with fire and ultimately out did them with our own unique brand of attacking football. It was less elegant, less poetic perhaps but was it any less exciting? hell no.. as a young lad I preferred our more wing based, individual flair focused style and ultimately we achieved what they couldn't. Exciting football which rocked the domestic and european scene. Yes we could fight and do the ugly stuff, but ultimately these United teams were remembered as swashbuckling exciting teams full of courage and honour.

What United need to do is either reiterate to Jose what the club stands for.. no more of this holding certain attackers back on the bench because it compromises your defensive set up, or making your left wingers operate like left wing backs in big games and challenge him to change, or ruthlessly bin him and then start putting the wheels in motion for restoring the club back to basics.. attacking and winning football, hand in hand. It might take a few more appointments yet and it is not an easy fix, but we need to start looking at what the history of this club has taught us, what values this club stands for and be very selective in our next managerial choice. We need to be forward thinking and innovative.. because that is what Fergie and Busby were for their time. For british managers, they were incredibly innovative and thought outside the box. They loved europe and outside influences.. they didn't close their ears and eyes to new ideas and ultimately they wanted to win and entertain the fans in equal measure.

To summarise, our current manager/next manager need to start:

• Play a proactive attacking style of football (home or away)
• Emphasise flair/trickery and unleash our attacking players again - make it fun for them
• Respect the history of the club and actively engage with the past, challenge the players to win and entertain in equal measure, don't accept anything less
• Exhilarating Wing play - Best, Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Kanchelskis.. its in our blood!
• Put the fans first again.. stop dividing us, we all want to win and be entertained, stop making us pick one or the other when the rival elite sides seem to be able to do both quite easily
• Sign exciting players who are technically on par with players who you'd expect to play for your Bayerns/Madrids and Barca. Stop going for below par PL-proven or Dortmund rejects. Appeal to the Mbappes of this world and make United the calling place for exciting young talents once again.. the Cristiano Ronaldo story should not have been a one off, he should have been the inspiration and the starting point of United being the place to be for likes of Hazard/Dembele etc instead we seem to be putting young players off with our style of play
• Promote the more technically gifted youngsters and integrate them into our first team. It seems the more technically gifted a United youngster is, the less chances he has of making it here. The likes of Pereira.. seem to have no chance here, but more efficient youngsters who play a more limited game seem to break through into the side more. We need to try our best to incorporate the more skilful youngsters into our set up in order to avoid another Pogba situation.
• No more hoof-ball under pressure. Play out from the back at all costs and commit to it. All the top sides seem to be able to do this.. why are we the only remaining elite club who kicks it long under pressure all the time, or passes it back whenever we get pressed
• Win the ball back more quickly, sick of us playing such a reactive defensive game when Fergie sides at their best were fast paced and looked to win the ball back quickly
• A manager who gets the club and its fans. Doesn't see us as a stepping stone or another job. Truly wants to be the next Fergie and Busby.. our history as a club is built on these era defining managers. Its one of our hallmarks of a club, we love our legendary managers.. but we don't tend to pick ones ready made, they tend to grow into the real deal but have proven they have an eye for success before coming to us. Striking that balance is key.
• Stop hoarding players, keeping players who can't do the job. More ruthlessness please and ensure we have players with the mentality to play courageous elite quality football at a place like this and guys who are winners.

Anyway, sorry for the long post.. I just hate seeing everyone at each others throat all the times. We need perspective yes, but we also need to remember what this club is about. What made us want to come on forums like this to discuss United in the first place and I guarantee if this club was just any other club with an average history, lack of style.. it wouldn't have such a vibrant forum. This club is an iconic sporting institution for a number of reasons and we need to start remembering these reasons and why this club is so special. To reclaim our former glory, we need to stay true to our roots and the club's values.. I used to think this type of stuff was just people talking in myths and glorifying what this club was about, but it is coming close to 10 years since that night in Moscow and that was the last time I felt the club was really in tune with both winning and entertaining in equal measure. Don't disrespect one or the other, we need to do both and we can do both. That is what Manchester United is all about and collectively we can get there but the fans and the manager (even the current one) need to sing from the same hymn sheet.. the one penned by Sir Matt Busby.

Thankyou Raees for an excellent "essay".
I am very concerned (even angry) about the ego-maniac who is our manager. Like probably all of you on this forum I am United through and through. I am like a stick of rock which has Manchester United written all the way through it, and this will always be so. In contrast I feel that the current manager also is like a stick of rock....but if you break this in two it reads Jose Mourinho all the way through. This man is in no way United! He seems to think it is all about him. Well, it is not. It is about you and me and thousands of others. We are each more important than this self-centred mercenary who is merely passing through our club. The sooner he goes the better and then lets instigate some of the positive proposals put forward by Raees.

 

[prtk0811]

May be you need the players too of that era to play like that.

 

[Theonas]

Exceptional reading, but based on the discussions I've had on here most United fans seem to think winning is entertaining in itself no matter what kind of football you play, so they kind of embrace this difficuly quest of winning big while playing small.

The only problem is that winning playing nice football is better than winning playing ugly football, and losing playing nice football better than losing playing shit on a stick football.

United's approach to Mourinho screams of poor mentality imo.

I understand how you get that impression but I would argue it is borne out of desperation more than any principle or lackof. We are where Real were in 2009, addicted to success to the point that a few years without it is making a large part of the following edgy and panicky, which not necessarily unjustifiable. This means there are plenty who argue that we are not a place to be picky now and Mourinho's brand of football is less relevant considering where we stand as a club, again not dissimilar to how Real fans felt in 2009. There is another fraction that is reactionary and almost teenage like in its rebellion against what they would call "purists" that's the section that would comment something like "I wish we park the bus and win through a Fellaini's backside goal in extra time just to annoy the purists on here". My point is that I think the majority our fans like any other club's do not necessarily feel like style or playing big as you put it does not matter, I think it's just that that some of them feel we need to be patient and smart with our priorities for the time being.

 

[sammsky1]

Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you

• Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
• Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
• Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
• Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
• Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
• The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.

Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.

a great reply to the many flaws in the OP

 

[Harv]

So in a nutshell, you're basically saying 'Giv it Giggsey til end of t'season'

 

[Home&Away]

I don't think you can win the league without playing beautifully attractive football - it is what makes the other teams weak and scared from the top of the league to the bottom.

Last 3 years, Leicester played some fantastic football, arguably the best of that year the same with chelsea and their 343 was the best in the league by far and now we come to city; we can go play against them but we will be the ones taking a more restricted approach to the game because we are scared against the beautiful football they are playing - not because we are trying to win the league by snatching points here and there.

For us to win the league - we have to play good football; there is too many world class players and managers in the PL now to win the league without taking the foot off the gas.

 

[haram]

We are struggling without Pogba, calm the feck down.

 

[Raees]

Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you

• Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
• Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
• Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
• Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
• Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
• The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.

Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.

Querioz was assistant in 2002 and then 2004-2008. Some of the best football United played in the modern era was 2006-08, where we outshone the rest of europe and the football was breathtaking. Yes we could defend well, but ultimately many of us loved watching that 06-08 side. It was the perfect mix of tough defence with superb wing play and unpredictable tenacious forwards with tonnes of skill in their locker.

Completely disagree with the part in bold. If the club has no set values or any guiding principles, it will be lost whenever a major figurehead goes, or a group of players retire. It leads to soul-searching and large passages of time before a new successful formula is sought. This club has a rich history and a timeless tradition of playing swashbuckling football which combines grit, flair and success/entertainment in equal measure. These are timeless concepts which will stay true forever and something the club can use as a very basic template whenever it is seeking to rebuild. At the moment, the club looks very rudderless on the pitch with no idea of how it wants to be represented on the pitch with no on-field values it believes in other than this very vague concept of 'we aspire to be winners' - which doesn't translate into a viable tangible football philosophy you can put into practice.

Underinvestment/bad purchases

No offence but underinvestment?? in what way have we been underinvesting?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/man-united-now-spent-587m-10767452

We have spent £587 million since Fergie retired. That is a shocking amount of money and what do we have to show for it.. minor trophies and a tumescent style of football which the fans are not pleased with.

Yes we have made bad purchases.. and why? we lack a a DNA of the type of player we want to go for. Yes mistakes can be made here and there, but how many players have we signed that are just not United material. We never seem to have a proper plan when signing a player or how this player fits into our style as a club, it just seems a mish mash of players put together and that is what it looks like on the pitch. A bunch of potentially talented players who whilst organised well defensively lack any real understanding or cohesiveness in an attacking sense. Lack of strategy when it comes to investing in full back areas, midfield areas (to be fair this has got better under Jose), winger areas and continuously signing slow or lumbering oafs up front - traditional number 9's (Falcao, Ibra, Lukaku), instead of getting a livewire in the mould of an Aguero or Suarez up front and modernising our attack.

Fergie's Pragmatism

Of course Fergie could be pragmatic. Anfield, Arsenal games, Stamford Bridge, he would sometime set up with a low block and look to counter. But he would always still retain that counter-attacking element within the side, even against Barca in those semi from 2008.. he tried to stick Ronaldo up top and give us that counter-threat. That said, those games were very few and far between and like I said, it was post 2007-08 when he started to take it a bit too far and began to betray our principles.. and due to his inability to rectify our midfield issues, we began to lose the ability to control these type of games and it wasn't something to be proud of. Hence arguing Fergie was pragmatic in his later years is neither here nor there as the quality of our football got worse and worse post 2008, and we looked less and less a top side, grinding our way to titles and boring the fanbase in the process.

Wingplay takes 4-5 years of windows

No it does not. Look at PSG, in the last window they got Dani Alves, Neymar and Mbappe in the same window. Their play down the wings is breathtaking now.

We could have made a huge push for Ousmanne Dembele, signed Mane instead of likes of Mata.. there has been various windows in the past where we could have signed a really exciting wide player and likes of Mendy/Walker were on the market but we chose to ignore. Nelson Semedo, a portuguese talent ffs we just let go to Barca. There are players out there which we can sign, in one or two windows we could have really stacked up on wide talents but we have been very lapse in this regard. This combined with our lack of any proper coaching regarding the interplay down the flanks, and unleashing our full backs to bomb forward and encouraging our wingers to act more as wing-forwards instead of tracking back, all these combine into shit wide play. Ever since Ronaldo went, there has been a massive decline in the quality and excitement of our wing play. We used to be famous for our commitment to wide play and what is hilarious is that every top club in europe took what was our hallmark, incorporated it into their own tactics and dominated europe.. Real (Bale/Ronaldo), Barca (Messi/Neymar) and even Bayern (Ribery/Robben) and all these sides had amazing wing backs to support these guys whilst we've been signing the likes of fecking Darmian.. seriously?!

No more long term managers

This might be true, but surely we should aspire to at least sign managers who really love the club and are awe-inspired to manage us. Who can connect to the fans and want to be part of the clubs folklore.. I feel like what makes this club unique is that connection to our managers. We are a very manager-centric club and it is a USP for us. Yes we could be real where the players come first etc.. but ultimately all our successes have come when we have a managerial maestro who controls the club from the bottom up, seeks to play enterprising football and believes in young players and freedom. Sometimes a club just has to stay true to its culture in order to replicate its success.. its like our secret 'coke' formula. Yes we need to modernise, but who knows if we get a modern manager who just happens to fall in love with the club and stays for 10 odd years. Why are we accepting defeat on that point and just saying oh it is impossible in the modern game. I don't think it is. We just need to find the one.

Hoarding Players

Therein lies the problem. Paying guys like Depay and Schneiderlin big money. Extending the contracts of average and mediocre players. Squad players like Mata on huge wages and massive transfer fees. It is a joke. It doesn't look like a well run football club and we look at clubs like Chelsea selling players efficiently or Pep selling players who just don't fit well and we still have Luke Shaw on our books when I could have told you he's a write off a year ago. Its got to the point where Fellaini is now lauded as a club hero. I like the guy but no way should a title winning club have a player like Fellaini as a key component of its spine.. there are serious flaws within the way the club is operating on the pitch and it needs to be rectified.

Second position is a good position. But ultimately we are still in that spot because a) weaker run of fixtures to begin the season with b) some fortunate results where we weren't playing particularly well even with Pogba and c) some of our domestic rivals are in a worse state of disarray than us i.e. Arsenal.

I don't buy the money excuse for second. We have spent shit loads, just like City have. We are to blame for our own purchases, but ultimately I think our signings are getting better yet the performances are still lacklustre and for me therefore it can't just be a personnel issue all the time. It is a philosophy and style issue.. tactically we are not setting up right and we need to move away from the pragmatism that has set in since 2008. We need to embrace our values and aim high again, aim to be one of the best footballing outfits in the world and success will follow as a result. We are not Inter Milan. We did not win two CL's through catenaccio, we won CL's through exciting gritty swashbuckling football with a mixture of everything, flair, dogged defence, individual and collective brilliance. We didn't win these by grinding through every big game. That isn't what Manchester United is about. The more we stray from that, the unhappier our fan base, the more fractured our support and that discontent will spill out onto the pitch and it is reflected in the disjointed nature of our football. The club (board, manager, fans, players) needs to be united, in order to reforge a successful Manchester United.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you

• Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
• Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
• Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
• Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
• Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
• The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.

Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.

Great post...
And to the highlighted, even if we could, it ll take time for all these new faces to work together and be effective. Some clubs will be lucky to have players who ease in quickly, some players won't ease in that quick.

 

[prtk0811]

Sir Alex fergusons football was not beautiful at all, dont know why beautiful is being over used word here.

We don't need to play beautiful , we need attacking presence and threat just without the longballs and create something in possession, pass better and link up better.

 

[Yorkeontop]

This surely goes back to the DOF argument.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11366206/Gary-Neville-The-era-of-the-gaffer-is-over.html

 

[AshRK]

The club's principle has always been about winning and being the best. Winning made us attractive. EVEN when we were dominating the league with SIr alex and ROnaldo, Rooney, press were still praising Wenger and his so called attractive football. I have seen many cagey performances under sir alex but the difference was the winning attitude.

Jose is not the problem , its that we got him 3 years late. We do not have personnel playing counter attacking football. There has been no plan, first appoint a clueless one in Moyes, then appoint a possession based manager only to replace him with a manager who does not give a crap about possession. It was all wrong. Jose has a massive task in his hand and the biggest of it is to bring back the winning belief.

Just playing attacking football and winning nothing will not bring back the glory days. Winning is what brings confidence. The truth is we do not have a game changer in our squad. Look at City yesterday, as good as Sane and Sterling play , it has always been KDB and Silva who make those brilliant passes. Martial and Rashford do not have that. Morata was good yesterday but it was Fabregas, Hazard and Bakayako creating spaces for him and delivering those wonderful crosses, Lukaku did not have that.

I know this might have been said million times here but Mkhi has been the biggest disappointment. When he had such a bright start to the season, I did predict he will have some dull games but never expected this much crap. What he has been doing now is beyond joke. Tell me when was the last time even under sir alex we lined up with 2 strikers at the bridge. Yesterday we did that but because we had one decent midfielder in Matic and zero creativity , our attackers were just feeding off scraps.

The problem is beyond the manager. Yes jose must be more brave but after seeing how crap Mkhi is and how average Mata has been, I do not blame him to play a tad defensive when playing against these big clubs. Yes we should not have this inferiority complex but maybe if he had a KdB or Hazard he would have been more attacking. This is why I feel he needs one more summer transfer window and he needs to more ruthless.

 

[5red]

If you were to ask supporters of rival clubs, of which I am one, would they like to see Mourinho kicked out of Utd. I am guessing most of them would say yes, this should tell you all you need to know about the quality of your manager.

 

[frank lee madeer..]

Why discount his entire career because he won once in a weak league? The logic makes no sense. Jose is rightly one of the top managers because of his CV. By that logic, let us discount what Pep did at Barca, that was years ago. Currently he is on zero champions league wins then.

Jose's methods are not working here because of personnel, not tactics (look at our pathetic counterattacks for instance, I am yet to see a half-decent one).

I haven't discounted his entire career though. If you read it back , I said the last 7 years. There is no argument about his early career, it was phenomenal. I don't think that Mourinho exists anymore though. For an example, was Rooney immune from criticism because he was phenomenal in the same period Jose was...was he feck, why? because he wasn't that Rooney anymore. Jose isn't above it either, to remain at the top, he needs to prove he can deliver in the here and now. The Europa league win earned him another season, cos let's be honest without it he'd have more than likely been pleading for his job.

 

[rotherham_red]

Not sure why the 2008 football is the reference. 1999 was an absolute peak of football, both in terms of quality, entertainment, passion and winning ways.

I'd say 2006/7 was our peak tbh. The Bolton away performance of that season, where we won 4-0 is the best I have ever seen Utd play, and we've never gotten close to it since, IMO.

Which is all a little sad, as that was ostensibly the beginning of that team but because of numerous factors (Saha's injury issues, Ronaldo leaving, Tevez being a cnut, and Berbatov coming in instead of a similarly pacey player to Saha) we never got to see the very best of it.

The Roma 7-1 should have been the beginning of a beautiful story of that team, where we genuinely looked like we were on the same path to greatness as the Barca dream team of the 90s, and Ajax (Johann Cruyff said as much at the time as well) but because of the factors mentioned above, it often gets forgotten in favour of the 2007/8 team, which while great, never really replicated the chemistry in attack which we had the season prior (outside of a couple of moments here and there during the season)...

EDIT - I'd say 1999 was our peak in terms of drama though, 100%

 

[AshRK]

There was a time when 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 became the fashionable thing to do, we invested in a young promising winger in obertan who dint do well, we tried same with depay also we bought shinji kagwa, that dint happen as well, we bought mata as the attacking player that turned out to be well average, same with mkhi. The traditional winger role has declined all over the world. We just invested less, when we did invest, it was poor.

Spot on. When City were buying Silva, Aguero, KDB, we were settling for mediocrity by buying Owen, Bebe, Falcao, Oberton. Sir alex was haggling to pay fees to buy Benzema, Hazard and Mata. Right now we are just playing catch up and even afte rspending insane amount we are short of quality because now 150m will only get you 3 top polayers and even then they may not be world class. Glazers starte dthe rot, SIr alex saved us with his genius but never addressed the issue and then Moyes, Lvg added mor emisery by just buying some average to decent players. Pogba was the first proper buy for us in years. We need more Pogba like buys to match the Byern's and Madrid's. I know this is easier said than done but we must but world class attackers and not settle for some rejects to save us.

 

[dichinero]

Rewriting history that football under Fergie was as poor and regular as this. When Fergie did it, it was rare, odd and yet there was still that belief that we could still do some damage, a far cry for this.
Tom Ince's comments after the Huddersfield match was pretty damning and a summary of football under José lately.

 

[PeteManic]

Complete title gore. No need to read any further. Don't feed the troll.

 

[TheReligion]

I'm not sure why people can't accept our position at the moment and just get behind the club, players and management.

We have improved undoubtedly since last season but we still have weaknesses which means in certain games we have to be pragmatic in order to push for a positive result. This forum would be mortified if we were slaughtered by City by 5 goals (a la Klopp's Liverpool), or repeatedly tried to make a system work that we just currently aren't built for.

We will get back to what everyone wants but it just needs time. You can't wave a wand and make it happen.

 

[I Believe]

need to sing from the same hymn sheet.. the one penned by Sir Matt Busby.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said, except that last comment!

For almost 10 years after Sir Matt finished his managerial career at the club, we sought the 'holy grail' of replicating Sir Matt's and his 'hymn sheet', it was a futile search, which finally our going down to the second division woke us up to the fact that Sir Matt had gone and so had his hymn sheet. What we had to find was a new Sir Matt with a new hymn sheet, because strangely enough it was through Sir Matts efforts in taking the club (against league advice) into Europe and a new the football world in the UK that included a European dimension blossomed. This affected a number of things, but essentially it was about more skills and technical abilities and more playing strategies and styles were developed, some pioneered in Europe, the Dutch 'Total football'; the 'dark arts' of Italian defending, etc.

One of the things that drew the club chairman Martin Edwards in particular to look at Alex Ferguson, was the success he had achieved in Europe with Aberdeen. Fergie as we all know took time to build his first United team and his subsequent teams that brought continuing success, true he did adopt some of Busby's 'philosophy' with investing in youngsters the busby babes gave way to the class of 92 etc. In those early days of the PL fans were willing to be patient because real and continual success had eluded the club for almost 20 years

The difference now is the fans won't wait for success, its has to be today, now and hence Jose Mourhino arrived, he will win things, or he will depart, I suspect of his own accord if he doesn't. However very little of Sir Matt or Sir Alex's 'hymn sheets' will remain, he will devise his own and they will be expensive. Jose, Pep, and other successful European managers and coaches require 'balance sheets' more than hymn sheets, in order to see their schemes fulfilled and for it to be instant.

It use to be said that "money won't buy you success in football", well Pep, Jose and a few others are likely to prove that wrong!

 

[alanjohnson]

It took city 3 years of huge investment before they started winning things and that was when players were 'cheap'.
At the moment, there are a lot of players who are just fillers until the real thing comes.
replace Valencia and Young with proper full backs. Get a right winger...and a number 10.....suddenly this team would look world class.

 

[sunama]

Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you

• Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
• Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
• Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
• Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
• Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
• The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.

Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.

Agreed on all points.

 

[whatwha]

Great post @Raees

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This surely goes back to the DOF argument.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11366206/Gary-Neville-The-era-of-the-gaffer-is-over.html

Man, so much of that rings painfully true with our floundering since Fergie retired.

Reed tells me: “We have a whole department for the recruitment of players, but it struck me some years ago that when a manager leaves, that’s when the club reacts and starts looking for a new one. I think we should be as diligent with that, because of the turnover of managers these days.

“Whether they are fired or attracted to another club, as with Mauricio [Pochettino], you have to be as far ahead with potential coaches as potential players. So I’m always tracking managers and coaches. What’s their style of play, how successful are they, what’s their personality like – so you can be ahead of the game. So I’m always looking at five or six potential managers who have already impressed me. It’s made it quicker. We’re not having off the wall discussions.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Complete title gore. No need to read any further. Don't feed the troll.

Maybe you shouldn't judge a book by its cover - it's a really good post.

 

[Kapardin]

I haven't discounted his entire career though. If you read it back , I said the last 7 years. There is no argument about his early career, it was phenomenal. I don't think that Mourinho exists anymore though. For an example, was Rooney immune from criticism because he was phenomenal in the same period Jose was...was he feck, why? because he wasn't that Rooney anymore. Jose isn't above it either, to remain at the top, he needs to prove he can deliver in the here and now. The Europa league win earned him another season, cos let's be honest without it he'd have more than likely been pleading for his job.

You are welcome to your opinion. Anyway, we are both gonna see what Jose will do during his time here, so let's wait and see who is correct and leave it at that.

 

[Offsideagain]

Excellent post from Raess but times have moved on. A comment José made after the Benfica game jumped out at me. He thought we had qualified for the knock out stages and said something along the lines of ‘ progress to the last 16 AND MORE MONEY FOR THE CLUB’. I’ve never heard a manager say that.Playing the Matt Busby way just isn’t an option. We don’t have the players, we don’t have the manager and we don’t have the balls to try it. The last thing United are short of is money. It hasn’t been spent well these last few years, but we have a good set of players. Busby and SAF, at times, had exceptional players plus the other ‘big clubs’ have caught up financially. I would love to see us going for it from minute one but it ain’t going to happen, too much at stake financially in the boards view. City are run as a business, more of a charity, so Pep can play how he likes, spend what he likes and bugger off when he likes which is why they are playing the way they are. Still think they’ll falter though.

 

[Parry Gallister]

If you were to ask supporters of rival clubs, of which I am one, would they like to see Mourinho kicked out of Utd. I am guessing most of them would say yes, this should tell you all you need to know about the quality of your manager.

This. Let the press cry all they want. United need to win the league to rebuild properly and get some of the aura back. Pep wasn't coming, Jose is the best shot at that. I don't love the man, most of the football this month has been boring/dour, but yet we're still up there. Where was all this bleating at the beginning of the season? If we wins the league, or leaves us with a really strong spine giving us a platform to do so, I'll take him for a few seasons. The football hasn't even been universally bad.

I don't believe this 'united way' bullshit, all our managers were pragmatic and willing to mix it up and do what it takes for the result (besides probably Van Gaal). Even if I did, we're not in the 20th century anymore. The only thing I do think is synonymous with our club is the youth, would like to see more of the young defenders coming in (looked decent in LVG's period) but kids are still coming through.

 

[prtk0811]

Let's look at the players Jose inherited.

Smalling , can't play out of the back , and is not anywhere near the level of legendary defenders we had.concentration levels are poor when going gets tough.

Jones , until now very injury prone but Jose got the best out of him , still not elite level defender. Abilities to play out from the back not good enough.

Fellani, mourinho got the best out of him, but he is very limited on the ball and can only pass short to the next player. Acceleration is none , abilities to control mid by winning first an second balls without making a tackle literally none, under high press passes safe. Only good in both boxes majority of the time.

Herrera, He is a pressing machine who wins the ball back high up the pitch. On the ball only passes mechanical sideways and back wards , short passes are good , and some through balls , long passing and midfeild control is none , intelligence level is average , a player with lot of heart and grit and tenacity but not intelligence. Shots outside the box never on target , never gets in the box naturally.

Blind , best as cb as a ball player and reading of the game but no physicality and aerial abilities, limited at left back and slow, inconsistent crossing.

Darmian pretty much the same as blind but versatile on both sides , low work rate ,can't do both jobs at the same time.

Av , great work rate and defending , but can switch off against high-level opponents. Crossing has been poor.

Young , finds his way back into the team for few good crosses assists and workrate to play as the winback on the left side. Poor passing and quality on the ball. Almost had his United career finished but some how saved it because of blind Shaw and darmian and rojo all failing to nail down the spot.

Rashford, great level of romantisim with him as he's a young academy player with great attitude , pace skill attitude, workrate, movement has everything, but he's not a natural winger but a centre forward but learning his trade very quickly , still have inconsistency but pretty much expected from young player.

Martial, not a natural winger . Best used as left wing forward , dribbling , composure an finishing in front of goal his best abilities, ( but rarely gets into box because played as a winger.
Lacks workrate and movement but best suited to a slower possession based tactics. With his strenghts needs to get into the box as a goal threat but has to be used as a winger but still his wingplay and crossing abilities are limited .

Mata, a slow no 10 , has to be played as a winger against a low block cutting inside. Could still be use as a 10 too which has not been done admitedley. Can't play as a winger against teams who attack.

Linard, good work rate and movement , not good enough in final third .

Now let's look at the players we got in the windows with mourinho.

Ibra , world class but slow and injured now.

Pogba , almost elite level but still has weakness in his midfeild play. He can't control the middle as his movement and of the ball positioning is not what is expected of a elite midfeilder, to win first and second balls without making a tackle Workrate to be improved a tad. Intelligence wise also needs to get His act together.

Bailly, potential to be elite defender , young , strong , great recovery pace , technical quality , physical , smells danger , not afraid against any flair players who might take him on , great concentration levels for maximum period of the game, needs to work on his aerial abilities but he can.

Mkhitarian, a curious one, great abilities but late bloomer , counter attacking player but ,never shone in epl with lack of space and high pressure in any position, finding it tough to adapt in the league and system. Attitude looks so average , he cares not for loosing or winning.

Matic , need not to be described.

Lukaku , has flaws in his game , needs service . Hold up play and first touch not very good , link up play improving.

Lindelof , potential but had a tough start , his character and attitude will be tested with time.


There are so many contradiction in lack of abilities of our players to the expectations we have off them.

It's not just the manager but players are a very huge factor in contradiction to how quality and attacking football we need to play.

Managers coaching is a factor but it's the players who implement it and finds solutions for the manager.

None of our first choice defenders can play out from the back and pass well, only 2 of midfeilders are good on the ball , and attacking midfeilders and wingers are not naturally those players where they are played.

Hire any manager, it's the set of players who's balance is not good enough right now which needs to be improved. So no managers is not the problem but only a small part of it.

 

[Raees]

I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said, except that last comment!

For almost 10 years after Sir Matt finished his managerial career at the club, we sought the 'holy grail' of replicating Sir Matt's and his 'hymn sheet', it was a futile search, which finally our going down to the second division woke us up to the fact that Sir Matt had gone and so had his hymn sheet. What we had to find was a new Sir Matt with a new hymn sheet, because strangely enough it was through Sir Matts efforts in taking the club (against league advice) into Europe and a new the football world in the UK that included a European dimension blossomed. This affected a number of things, but essentially it was about more skills and technical abilities and more playing strategies and styles were developed, some pioneered in Europe, the Dutch 'Total football'; the 'dark arts' of Italian defending, etc.

One of the things that drew the club chairman Martin Edwards in particular to look at Alex Ferguson, was the success he had achieved in Europe with Aberdeen. Fergie as we all know took time to build his first United team and his subsequent teams that brought continuing success, true he did adopt some of Busby's 'philosophy' with investing in youngsters the busby babes gave way to the class of 92 etc. In those early days of the PL fans were willing to be patient because real and continual success had eluded the club for almost 20 years

The difference now is the fans won't wait for success, its has to be today, now and hence Jose Mourhino arrived, he will win things, or he will depart, I suspect of his own accord if he doesn't. However very little of Sir Matt or Sir Alex's 'hymn sheets' will remain, he will devise his own and they will be expensive. Jose, Pep, and other successful European managers and coaches require 'balance sheets' more than hymn sheets, in order to see their schemes fulfilled and for it to be instant.

It use to be said that "money won't buy you success in football", well Pep, Jose and a few others are likely to prove that wrong!

Informative post I like it.. but important to clarify by what I mean 'hymn sheet'.

In any successful business you aspire to have certain untouchable tenets which remain timeless and are seen as key ingredients for sustainable success. These are the principles you adhere to no matter what but it is important to keep them few and far between, limited only to those which will be effective generation after generation otherwise you can find yourself staying static, backwards whilst the world is moving on.

I feel as if certain aspects of the way we played under Busby, certain principles he believed in were timeless concepts which we should treasure as 'United DNA'.. things we should never let go off. These include a desire to entertain, the belief in young exciting players and a proactive approach to the game, which ultimately affords freedom to the most creative players and lets them wreak havoc with their genius. The Busby side of Best, Law and Charlton was playing football far ahead of its time and it was honestly better than any of the football I have seen from United over the past 10 years and that is a travesty.. we shouldn't be playing football which is more backwards than the 1960's. We should be constantly keeping up with modern trends and being innovators and renowned as one of the more exciting teams in world football.

No one is saying play 4-4-2 etc.. its about taking the generic principles and staying true to them, knowing full well that ultimately these will lead us back to success as they're timeless ingredients for a successful and dominant footballing side.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Would we still be preaching to each other if Poch had actually won something? Lets say he won a cup, or the league title instead of Leicester.. if he proves that his style of attractive football, squad harmony, and positive man management skills can win you trophies, would we still be arguing this hard for Jose every day? I dont think there is one single way to be successful and win trophies, I beleive Jose is just doing what he does best, what he thinks is the most efficient way to win, but it's not the only way.

I never called for his head btw, but I think it's fair for fans to question his decisions and style from time to time, and I grow tired of hearing people say "but we need to endure this to get back to winning first!". I'm still happy that we got him because he quickly rebulit our squad with some world class additions, i'm very thankful for him bringing Pogba back and was actually hugely optimistic at the start of his reign. The honeymoon didn't last however, as he got more and more dour as his first season came to an end. So now I'm starting to see what chelsea fans warned us about, after the initial honeymoon period is over. However I generally agree with most of the posts on the first page, I see alot of people also feel that he won't be staying here for long, so we might as well try to support him and hope he brings as many trophies as possible while further strenghening the squad. He will leave us in a much stronger position than when he came here, no doubt about that. And probably take credit as well when the next guy wins something with us, with the squad he inherited from him.

 

[Raees]

Excellent post from Raess but times have moved on. A comment José made after the Benfica game jumped out at me. He thought we had qualified for the knock out stages and said something along the lines of ‘ progress to the last 16 AND MORE MONEY FOR THE CLUB’. I’ve never heard a manager say that.Playing the Matt Busby way just isn’t an option. We don’t have the players, we don’t have the manager and we don’t have the balls to try it. The last thing United are short of is money. It hasn’t been spent well these last few years, but we have a good set of players. Busby and SAF, at times, had exceptional players plus the other ‘big clubs’ have caught up financially. I would love to see us going for it from minute one but it ain’t going to happen, too much at stake financially in the boards view. City are run as a business, more of a charity, so Pep can play how he likes, spend what he likes and bugger off when he likes which is why they are playing the way they are. Still think they’ll falter though.

I see these as excuses. Alot of 'woe is me' misery on United boards. You have one camp which is utterly miserable because they hate our football and even title wins won't satisfy them and you have another equally miserable camp who argue beautiful football is now officially beyond us, we need to accept the status quo.. accept that we have to win ugly and then maybe one day the good times will come back and that Jose is doing the best he can in difficult circumstances.

I simply don't buy this pessimism. For all the flak the Glazers get, the money is there.. they do give managers funds. Is it there fault, managers spunk £40m on Fellaini and Lindelof? constantly piss money away on bad fits, or very short term signings which ultimately will prove to be a bad investment in the long run because the signing hasn't been thought through?

That comment by Jose in bold said it all for me. The younger fresher Jose was so on the ball, he wouldn't be caught out by that. He'd know every ramification by heart and his attention to detail was second to none. He'd have walked into this club and he'd have sacked off half the players and brought players willy nilly and imposed his system on the team and whilst it might not have been super pretty, it would be cohesive, effective and ultimately good football albeit not uber-elegant.

Now I see a broken side which is held together by his still excellent defensive coaching but a man who has zero patience for the attacking phases of the game and just expects the players to pull rabbits out of hats. The love for the game is missing from his eyes, he just seems permanently bitter and the charm is amiss, and the football reflects his mood. He is grinding his way through this job and the team is grinding its way through games too.

I hope Pogba coming back gives everyone a lift, but Jose needs to up his game. Performance wise, make no bones about it, he's been just as poor as some of the scapegoats out on the pitch.