Jose was the wrong fit - Staying true to Busby's mantra will be the key to reclaiming glory

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,479
"I'll never forget what Sir Matt said to us one day when he pointed across to Trafford Park, which at the time was the largest industrial estate in Europe," he said, his voice cracking with emotion. "He told us: 'The people over there work hard all week long and it is your job to go out on the field and provide them with some entertainment'.

"And that is what we tried to do; we played for the team, for the club and for the country."
In the latter years of Fergie's reign, I was beginning to fall out of love with the way we were approaching the game. It felt like the grand old master - all too aware his time was coming to an end, sold his soul to the devil and was desperate to squeeze out the last remnants of silverware out of the side he had spent the last vestiges of his managerial career masterfully creating rather than plan for the future and put the fans first like he had always done.

Sir Alex for all his limitations tactically (overstated somewhat), always had it in him to produce rip-roaring sides that could take the breath away. Excitement down the flanks, fast direct possession play through the centre, flair in the final third, blood and thunder football played at a furious pace... but beautiful too, 'playground' football at its finest. Whilst clubs like Real Madrid and Barca have produced football that the gods would admire..elegant, mature, intelligent but possession focused.. United have always played a more earthier brand of attacking football, more raw, youthful, gritty but accessible.. fearless, pulsating breakneck speed football which gives individuals a platform to rewrite the game as they wish without needing to conform.

This gave way to pragmatism, championing more limited amiable efficient footballers like Valencia on the wings over more exotic yet unpredictable wingers like Nani. In 2008/09, it was the defence which led us to the title and the entertainment factor became secondary to success. Younger more exotic talents like Pique, Pogba or Rossi.. struggled to transition into the first team set up as the patience wasn't there to blood talented young players. The focus was on who could do a job for the here and now. For the first time in Fergie's reign, entertainment and winning football was no longer going hand in hand.. confronted with the fact that the side would need to be rebuilt and reinvested in heavily in order to revitalise the 2006-08 side in an attacking sense, a decision was made to win on the cheap and sacrifice beautiful football in the process. The side if playing in a certain pragmatic style was still capable of winning honours, but if attempts were made to play in the manner of old.. without Ronaldo at his swashbuckling best, it would not be successful and Fergie couldn't afford to go years without success again, his time at the top was running out and he chose the short term fix which would maximise his chances of filling his trophy cabinet in the few years he had left.

Now there is no reason why those last 3-4 years of Sir Alex's reign should have been allowed to symbolise the current malaise the club finds itself in. So what if the club endured a few years of slightly below par football and entertainment, it was still successful and with his replacement, we could surely reset the style back in line with Busby's mantra and press ahead at full speed, once again combining exciting entertaining football with winning football.. ultimately that was what United stood for, what its fame was built on. Fergie may have lost his way somewhat but this was the true heir to Busby who for 23 of his 27 years of managing the club, always aspired to play the right way and win... managing to combine both in arguably the most impressive managerial reign of all time at any club.

We all know what happened next. First came Moyes and then Van Gaal. We don't need reminding of the intricate ins and outs of their reign, but ultimately the club betrayed its principles and chose to take an alternate route to success. Now maybe the club felt that these managers would come in and ultimately adapt their methods, taking into account the clubs mantra but as we know leopards don't change their spots and what these leaders did was to try and mould the club to their vision and philosophy of how the game should be played and ultimately failed. Manchester United, was simply too big an institution, its history and folklore too strong to try and tame...

  • Moyes' pragmatic football was more in line with Sir Alex's last 4 years but what he didn't realise was that the squad was too far gone by this stage and what it needed was a major rebuild -something far beyond his calling. He was neither a winner nor was he capable of producing exciting football.. an exceptionally bad fit for this club and a truly awful selection by the powers that be at the time.
  • Van Gaal was more of a winner and capable of more attractive football to a point, but once again the club erred gravely. Upon closer inspection, this was a man who believed in a very pragmatic philosophy of football albeit couched in a possession-based mantra rather than in purely defensive terms. To the uneducated eye, he was able to produce sophisticated football teams that could compete with the top european teams and produced a legendary Ajax side of the 90s but this was an anti-Cruyffian manager who believed in conservative passing and eliminating mistakes on the ball. Not to mention in terms of winning major trophies, he hadn't really won anything of major significance for 5 years and the last time he won CL was 1995. So in essence we had appointed a relic of the past, who was capable of winning in the past and producing decent football in the past, but was now not really an uber-winner and lacked the ability to produce good football due to his dogmatic philosophy becoming increasingly negative in nature. Another awful managerial selection by the powers that be.
Which brings us to the modern day. We had an opportunity with the departure of Van Gaal, to return to our roots, our mantra and try to put entertainment and winning football joint first in terms of priority. Once again, we chose to betray our mantra and go for the winning football only option. Now in our first season, we won two trophies which was great but from an entertainment perspective it was below par to what United fans were accustomed to pre 2009. This year we seemed to start with a bang, but goals tally aside, in terms of performance levels.. and commitment to unadulterated attacking football, first few weeks aside, it would take a very rose-tinted Mourinho fan to argue the side was on the whole playing with real verve and fluidity in the final third. Then came Anfield and this current spell of results which lifted the blinds, and exposed our football (or lack thereof) in all its glory.

Once again the United machine has come unstuck.. fans in despair, rival supporter factions at a crossroad. Some arguing the club is on the right track and needs to focus on being pragmatic to restore the club on the path to success, others arguing they would rather see good football and to hell with winning at all costs.. but both factions are only at war because the powers that be, have repeatedly betrayed the club and lack the vision and direction to realise that sometimes for success to occur, the culture of the club needs to be respected and we need to look at what the club stands for.. what the recipe for success is at this club and stick to it, rather than trying to create a massive upheaval and take the club in the opposite direction.

When we were confronted with Arsenal of the 90's or early 00's. Instead of copying their style of football... or playing super negative football, we fought fire with fire and ultimately out did them with our own unique brand of attacking football. It was less elegant, less poetic perhaps but was it any less exciting? hell no.. as a young lad I preferred our more wing based, individual flair focused style and ultimately we achieved what they couldn't. Exciting football which rocked the domestic and european scene. Yes we could fight and do the ugly stuff, but ultimately these United teams were remembered as swashbuckling exciting teams full of courage and honour.

What United need to do is either reiterate to Jose what the club stands for.. no more of this holding certain attackers back on the bench because it compromises your defensive set up, or making your left wingers operate like left wing backs in big games and challenge him to change, or ruthlessly bin him and then start putting the wheels in motion for restoring the club back to basics.. attacking and winning football, hand in hand. It might take a few more appointments yet and it is not an easy fix, but we need to start looking at what the history of this club has taught us, what values this club stands for and be very selective in our next managerial choice. We need to be forward thinking and innovative.. because that is what Fergie and Busby were for their time. For british managers, they were incredibly innovative and thought outside the box. They loved europe and outside influences.. they didn't close their ears and eyes to new ideas and ultimately they wanted to win and entertain the fans in equal measure.

To summarise, our current manager/next manager need to start:

  • Play a proactive attacking style of football (home or away)
  • Emphasise flair/trickery and unleash our attacking players again - make it fun for them
  • Respect the history of the club and actively engage with the past, challenge the players to win and entertain in equal measure, don't accept anything less
  • Exhilarating Wing play - Best, Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Kanchelskis.. its in our blood!
  • Put the fans first again.. stop dividing us, we all want to win and be entertained, stop making us pick one or the other when the rival elite sides seem to be able to do both quite easily
  • Sign exciting players who are technically on par with players who you'd expect to play for your Bayerns/Madrids and Barca. Stop going for below par PL-proven or Dortmund rejects. Appeal to the Mbappes of this world and make United the calling place for exciting young talents once again.. the Cristiano Ronaldo story should not have been a one off, he should have been the inspiration and the starting point of United being the place to be for likes of Hazard/Dembele etc instead we seem to be putting young players off with our style of play
  • Promote the more technically gifted youngsters and integrate them into our first team. It seems the more technically gifted a United youngster is, the less chances he has of making it here. The likes of Pereira.. seem to have no chance here, but more efficient youngsters who play a more limited game seem to break through into the side more. We need to try our best to incorporate the more skilful youngsters into our set up in order to avoid another Pogba situation.
  • No more hoof-ball under pressure. Play out from the back at all costs and commit to it. All the top sides seem to be able to do this.. why are we the only remaining elite club who kicks it long under pressure all the time, or passes it back whenever we get pressed
  • Win the ball back more quickly, sick of us playing such a reactive defensive game when Fergie sides at their best were fast paced and looked to win the ball back quickly
  • A manager who gets the club and its fans. Doesn't see us as a stepping stone or another job. Truly wants to be the next Fergie and Busby.. our history as a club is built on these era defining managers. Its one of our hallmarks of a club, we love our legendary managers.. but we don't tend to pick ones ready made, they tend to grow into the real deal but have proven they have an eye for success before coming to us. Striking that balance is key.
  • Stop hoarding players, keeping players who can't do the job. More ruthlessness please and ensure we have players with the mentality to play courageous elite quality football at a place like this and guys who are winners.
Anyway, sorry for the long post.. I just hate seeing everyone at each others throat all the times. We need perspective yes, but we also need to remember what this club is about. What made us want to come on forums like this to discuss United in the first place and I guarantee if this club was just any other club with an average history, lack of style.. it wouldn't have such a vibrant forum. This club is an iconic sporting institution for a number of reasons and we need to start remembering these reasons and why this club is so special. To reclaim our former glory, we need to stay true to our roots and the club's values.. I used to think this type of stuff was just people talking in myths and glorifying what this club was about, but it is coming close to 10 years since that night in Moscow and that was the last time I felt the club was really in tune with both winning and entertaining in equal measure. Don't disrespect one or the other, we need to do both and we can do both. That is what Manchester United is all about and collectively we can get there but the fans and the manager (even the current one) need to sing from the same hymn sheet.. the one penned by Sir Matt Busby.
 

Varun

Moderator
Staff
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
46,792
Location
Mumbai
Nice post @Raees.

My short view on this:

Mourinho is needed now. We've forgot what it is like to win things and we were left with a squad which wasn't good enough to win, let alone play beautiful football while still winning. He doesn't mind spending and he has a good eye in the market. Most importantly, he's a winner who will instill the winning habit again at the club. Anyone who's honest with himself always knew this appointment was all about getting back to winning ways rather than getting back to swashbuckling football. We shouldn't be surprised as that's how it's panning out. Mourinho has always played this way especially in tough away games. He's not changed, it's just some of us complaining that he hasn't.

I don't think mourinho will be here too long, he just doesn't seem to have the mindset to last long. He'll be gone in a few years. What I want is to have a top squad by then and have won things so that the incoming manager can take the next step towards winning with more style than having it all to do.

No idea how the scene would look like in a few years when he leaves so it's tough to say who the best fit would be then so I won't speculate on that but that's how I see or hope it pans out.

Ultimately, we want to enjoy the way our club plays football. As you said, it'd be great to not have to debate endlessly on winning vs entertainment as if it's a choice. A club with our resources has no excuse to not be able to do both.

For now though, I think we need to be patient and hope we can get back to winning ways again and build a top squad while playing good football for a majority of the games. We can make the next step after that.
 

2 man midfield

Last Man Standing finalist 2021/22
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
46,395
Location
?
If we don't win PL or CL in his three years of contract period, then we shouldn't extend.
Regardless of progress made?

It was one loss at a ground we always lose at, and suddenly people want Jose out. Are they forgetting what we looked like when he walked in the door and the progress made in the last 12 months?
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
96,792
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
Regardless of progress made?

It was one loss at a ground we always lose at, and suddenly people want Jose out. Are they forgetting what we looked like when he walked in the door and the progress made in the last 12 months?
I doubt he'll wanna stay for more 3 years. He ain't enjoying himself at Manchester. He may need a break from football after this stint (this is me attempting some psycho babble :wenger: not 100% serious).

I seriously hope he doesn't extend his contract. Mourinho and long term planning don't work together.
 

serghei

New Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
1,610
Location
Bucharest
Supports
FC Barcelona
Exceptional reading, but based on the discussions I've had on here most United fans seem to think winning is entertaining in itself no matter what kind of football you play, so they kind of embrace this difficuly quest of winning big while playing small.

The only problem is that winning playing nice football is better than winning playing ugly football, and losing playing nice football better than losing playing shit on a stick football.

United's approach to Mourinho screams of poor mentality imo.
 

itso 7

New Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
4,840
Location
harare,zimbabwe
Nice post @Raees.

My short view on this:

Mourinho is needed now. We've forgot what it is like to win things and we were left with a squad which wasn't good enough to win, let alone play beautiful football while still winning. He doesn't mind spending and he has a good eye in the market. Most importantly, he's a winner who will instill the winning habit again at the club. Anyone who's honest with himself always knew this appointment was all about getting back to winning ways rather than getting back to swashbuckling football. We shouldn't be surprised as that's how it's panning out. Mourinho has always played this way especially in tough away games. He's not changed, it's just some of us complaining that he hasn't.

I don't think mourinho will be here too long, he just doesn't seem to have the mindset to last long. He'll be gone in a few years. What I want is to have a top squad by then and have won things so that the incoming manager can take the next step towards winning with more style than having it all to do.

No idea how the scene would look like in a few years when he leaves so it's tough to say who the best fit would be then so I won't speculate on that but that's how I see or hope it pans out.

Ultimately, we want to enjoy the way our club plays football. As you said, it'd be great to not have to debate endlessly on winning vs entertainment as if it's a choice. A club with our resources has no excuse to not be able to do both.

For now though, I think we need to be patient and hope we can get back to winning ways again and build a top squad while playing good football for a majority of the games. We can make the next step after that.
I don't think calling for Mourinho's head right now or expecting him to change what has made him successful is the way to go or justified at this stage because we knew what we were getting into when we signed him. Another thing is that is the club equipped to identify the right manager needed to help us win in style and in this oil money dominated market do we have the capacity to bring in the required talent on a regular basis? For this season we need to support the team and hope that Mourinho leads us to a CL place then look at where we really want to go as a club over the summer because its clear that this isn't sustainable.
 

roonster09

FA Cup Predictions 2023/2024 winner
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
37,008
Nice post @Raees.

My short view on this:

Mourinho is needed now. We've forgot what it is like to win things and we were left with a squad which wasn't good enough to win, let alone play beautiful football while still winning. He doesn't mind spending and he has a good eye in the market. Most importantly, he's a winner who will instill the winning habit again at the club. Anyone who's honest with himself always knew this appointment was all about getting back to winning ways rather than getting back to swashbuckling football. We shouldn't be surprised as that's how it's panning out. Mourinho has always played this way especially in tough away games. He's not changed, it's just some of us complaining that he hasn't.

I don't think mourinho will be here too long, he just doesn't seem to have the mindset to last long. He'll be gone in a few years. What I want is to have a top squad by then and have won things so that the incoming manager can take the next step towards winning with more style than having it all to do.

No idea how the scene would look like in a few years when he leaves so it's tough to say who the best fit would be then so I won't speculate on that but that's how I see or hope it pans out.

Ultimately, we want to enjoy the way our club plays football. As you said, it'd be great to not have to debate endlessly on winning vs entertainment as if it's a choice. A club with our resources has no excuse to not be able to do both.

For now though, I think we need to be patient and hope we can get back to winning ways again and build a top squad while playing good football for a majority of the games. We can make the next step after that.
Agreed. It's important to start winning first, we haven't won league in 4 years and it's not good enough for a club like ManUtd. Jose won't be here long term and appointing Jose didn't do much harm to Chelsea and Madrid. They stabilised and then kicked on with other managers. We had a poor squad and now we are reshaping with better players.

I agree with few points from OP, we should attack much more especially away from home.
 

red4ever 79

New Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
9,530
Location
Czech Republic
Mourinho will not be here beyond next season. History tells us this, his general demeanour tells us this. Agree with the style of football not being good enough. Setting up not to lose a match, rather than to win a match will never be acceptable for Manchester United in my eyes
 
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
52,886
Location
Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
We are 2 years through a 3 year process of making our team great again. Give it time. Experts have repeatedly told us Mourinho would need 3 summer windows to restore us to our former glories and on current evidence they haven't been wrong.


When demanding we return to our roots people need to keep a few things in mind:

People talk of exciting wing play and forget we have no natural wingers in the squad, and a serious imbalance in the fullback positions. Its not our current manager's fault. To make it worse there is a dearth of good, exciting, top quality wide players in football at the moment. Both at fullback and winger positions. So we either have to break the bank to solve it or bite the bullet and promote the likes of Fosu-Mensah, Riley, Mitchell and wait for Shaw to develop the consistency to do the job we require. Yet City are busy making everyone jittery with jealousy.

Even in midfield currently we still only have two inventive passers in our entire squad for central midfield (Pogba and old man Carrick) yet we look lost without them. We have to solve that in the market too.


We also need a proper upgrade/solution in the number 10 position. A problem we've been trying to solve since we signed Veron. Having a true, top quality, advance playmaker. Else we need to sign a world class support striker in the Lemar, Dybala or Griezmann class. Or pray Pereira and Gomes snatch their chance if it ever comes.

Above all we no longer have a world class attack. Yet in this day and age such players or talents are few and far between and overly expensive. What we have is just a potentially world class attack and just like between 2004-2007 it will always hurts us in the biggest games. Till we are either patient to await for them to develop like Fergie did with WR10 and CR7, or we solve it in the market
 
Last edited:

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
102,071
Location
Barrow In Furness
We are 2 years through a 3 year process of making our team great again. Give it time. Experts have repeatedly told us Mourinho would need 3 summer windows to restore us to our former glories and on current evidence they haven't been wrong.


When demanding we return to our roots people need to keep a few things in mind:

People talk of exciting wing play and forget we have no natural wingers in the squad, and a serious imbalance in the fullback positions. Its not our managers fault. To make it worse there is a dearth of good, exciting, top quality wide players in football at the moment. Both at fullback and winger positions.

Even in midfield currently we still only have two inventive passers in our entire squad for central midfield (Pogba and old man Carrick) yet we look lost without them.


We also need a proper upgrade/solution in the number 10 position. A problem we've been trying to solve since we signed Veron. Having a true, top quality, advance playmaker. Else we need to sign a world class support striker in the Dybala or Griezmann class


Above all we no longer have a world class attack. Yet in this day and age such players or talents are few and far between and overly expensive. What we have is just a potentially world class attack and just like between 2004-2007 it will always hurts us in the biggest games. Till we are either patient yo await for them to develop like we did with a WR10 and CR7, or we solve it in the market
The only worry I have is that we seem to be going backwards, style wise. He might run out of time and then it will all start again with another manager.

We started the season well then the old pragmatism kicked in. I do not have a problem with that in a way, but Jose got caught between two stools yesterday. Funny enough, yesterday we needed that pragmatism. I just think we are lacking an attacking style, we have no wingers, no top class attacking fullbacks. We are relying on the midfield to do everything and that is not always going to work, you need to be able to change your point of attack.
 
Last edited:

Maradona10

Woodward’s biggest fan
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,697
Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you
  • Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
  • Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
  • Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
  • Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
  • Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
  • The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.
Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.
 

MoskvaRed

Full Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
5,252
Location
Not Moskva
I agree with many of the points made by @Raees but i think the expectation of a manager committed for the long term is a bit unrealistic in 2017. I think that model dies out when Wenger steps down.

The big problem that the club is still grappling with is that, for 26 years, the club’s identity was built around one man. One day in 2013, that man started his well-earned retirement and the club was thrown into the highly unstable world of modern football with no roadmap. The number one priority of the club should be to fill that vacuum by appointing one or more persons with football expertise to establish a framework for the football side of the club (ranging from youth set up through to the first xi) within which new managers (or coaches to be precise) can come in and operate. Otherwise I fear we are going to run a very expensive version of the England national team where each new manager seems to be appointed on the basis he is the opposite of his predecessor.
 
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
52,886
Location
Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
The only worry I have is that we seem to be going backwards, style wise. He might run out of time and then it will all start again with another manager.

We started the season well then the old pragmatism kicked in. I do not have a problem with that in a way, but Jose got caught between two stools yesterday. Funny enough, yesterday we needed that pragmatism. I just think we are lacking an attacking style, we have no wingers, no top class attacking fullbacks. We are relying on the midfield to do everything and that is not always going to work, you need to be able to change your point of attack.
I think its a bit early to say that. Before we got hit by the Pogba injury and Mhikitaryan and Mata's form slump, there was honestly very little wrong with our style.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
96,062
Location
india
I've generally not been a fan of the whole 'United Way' argument put forth before which usually seemed to imply that 442 with wingers was the only way to play no matter what era or circumstances you're in.

However, come to think about it, for me it implies entertainment and excitement, playing football that at the very least tries to get people off their seats, that has a certain aggression and desire to sweep forward in numbers. A commitment to attack, basically. It can be through possession and it can be through counter attack. But a club of United's stature build on foundations of attacking football by two incredible and era defining managers, should not play dire, dull football in the desperation of trophies. If you give me the league right now with defensive football being the rider of course I'd take it. But it's apparent that we lack a cohesive long term plan which is one of the reasons we look like not winning anything big this year despite our win at all cost approach. And going forward I'd personally prefer an emphasis on attacking football and entertainment. I had this view pre and post moyes too if I'm not mistaken.

The thing is that Jose will not change. And given his record and the fact that we're on this path with him, we may as well give him his 3 years to try and achieve things his way before making that commitment to our ethos. There's no point forcing him to be something he isn't.
 

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
102,071
Location
Barrow In Furness
I think its a bit early to say that. Before we got hit by the Pogba injury and Mhikitaryan and Mata's form slump, there was honestly very little wrong with our style.
I am really worried that Mhki just doesn't have the mentality for us. Last season you could put down to settling in, but it is happening again that he is disappearing. It was basically a two against three midfield again yesterday and they got overrun. Mata just never seems to stay on the pitch for the whole game, you know he will get substituted. I think both are under serious threat of being replaced as Juan is not much use coming off the bench and Mhki would not want to be on the bench.
 

ivaldo

Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
28,701
Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you
  • Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
  • Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
  • Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
  • Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
  • Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
  • The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.
Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.
Great counter post. Well put.
 

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
102,071
Location
Barrow In Furness
I've generally not been a fan of the whole 'United Way' argument put forth before which usually seemed to imply that 442 with wingers was the only way to play no matter what era or circumstances you're in.

However, come to think about it, for me it implies entertainment and excitement, playing football that at the very least tries to get people off their seats, that has a certain aggression and desire to sweep forward in numbers. A commitment to attack, basically. It can be through possession and it can be through counter attack. But a club of United's stature build on foundations of attacking football by two incredible and era defining managers, should not play dire, dull football in the desperation of trophies. If you give me the league right now with defensive football being the rider of course I'd take it. But it's apparent that we lack a cohesive long term plan which is one of the reasons we look like not winning anything big this year despite our win at all cost approach. And going forward I'd personally prefer an emphasis on attacking football and entertainment. I had this view pre and post moyes too if I'm not mistaken.

The thing is that Jose will not change. And given his record and the fact that we're on this path with him, we may as well give him his 3 years to try and achieve things his way before making that commitment to our ethos. There's no point forcing him to be something he isn't.
The fact that the papers were saying he wants a payrise. I would be holding off that decision to see how things progress. If he doesn't like it and it is all about money then he can leave and we look elsewhere.
 
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
52,886
Location
Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
I am really worried that Mhki just doesn't have the mentality for us. Last season you could put down to settling in, but it is happening again that he is disappearing. It was basically a two against three midfield again yesterday and they got overrun. Mata just never seems to stay on the pitch for the whole game, you know he will get substituted. I think both are under serious threat of being replaced as Juan is not much use coming off the bench and Mhki would not want to be on the bench.
I agree.
 

Rory 7

Full Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Messages
7,454
Location
A car park in Saipan
This is the kind of argument that the like of Newcastle made to justify Keegan’s ‘entertainers’. It’s a straw man. Fergie didn’t mind beating those ‘entertainers’ by parking the bus and nicking a one-nil win against them. United’s ‘style’ is winning things. We did that last year and, given time, Jose will win us the big prizes too.
 

Red_toad

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
11,667
Location
DownUnder
team is imbalanced due to chopping and changing of managers who all have a completely different approach to the game.
So the answer must be sack the manager and get a new one in, someone who plays a brand of football that does not suit a large amount of our players, then we can rinse and repeat, blame the manager for not resolving all squad issues within 18 months and for our play looking disjointed and not playing to its strengths.

The club owners are at fault, they've only ever taken a short term view to team development. I'd say a director of football would give the club a much needed longer term view on developing the squad. maybe we'd have addressed right wing and left back had a dof been in place.
 
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
52,886
Location
Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you
  • Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
  • Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
  • Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
  • Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
  • Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
  • The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.
Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.
Amen
 

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
102,071
Location
Barrow In Furness
Ferguson did not follow Busby in his later years. He followed what was required, hiring queiroz and then overseeing one of the best periods in united's history. The reaction of these posts to a loss that is gimme over the years is idiotic. I understand the passion and hurt one is feeling after a loss but logically 2nd in the league and in the last 16 of Cl and progress in both cups is evidence of the fact we are getting better.

The things in blood of club does not exist. The club is blooded by different players from different clubs. I think logic needs to supersede this passion .

My counter points to you
  • Constant under investment in the club has lead us to this. Bad recruitment has lead to us having below par players yet the manager has us in a position where we are 2nd in the league and fighting for all other trophies too
  • Fergie had similar pragmatic approach in his later years, he never won at stamford bridge even then . Sometimes in football a team has your number (us vs tottenham) and that is how it is.
  • Sign players with skills, wingplay etc cannot be done in just one or two windows, its a job that is huge and requires 4-5 windows atleast. Look at city it has taken them 8-9 years of constant investment that has constantly increased over that period too.
  • Do you really think if we could play out from the back, We wouldnt do it on purpose? same about Winning ball back.
  • Most managers these days want to win at different leagues, Guardiola/Mourinho/ancelotti/Conte none of them wants to become the next fergie, that is not the mentality of today's managers. Look at even klopp who said very new into his reign that if he was at liverpool in 4 years he would win a trophy.
  • The club does not hoard players, when it buys players who it thinks will do well in future, it has to offer them a competitive salary. When those players like schniderlin or depay dont do well, unless they get a decent offer in wages that match or come close to their current offer they will not leave then also comes in their personal choice of country/new team etc might not be interesting enough to make them leave. ITs not football manager where you can sell ashley young when he is playing well for 30 million.
Yes i understand most fell in love with the style of the club and how we played but the thing is right now we do not have owners willing to invest as much is required to get the players nor do we have the recruitment policy or as yourself fans with patience who need to think that it will take time to get there. You cannot buy two full backs, one attacker, one 75 million striker and great backup in one window.
Jose you need to see is doing a fantastic job with what he has for now, When mkhi was signed he was not called a dortmund reject and its one signing that hasnt worked out, when you talk about wanting to play out of the back, when one good ball playing central defender we have is very young and inexperienced and bought for that purpose.
Changing the manager will be the worst thing we can do right now, especially after the success he has brought us with very limited players. He has missed his most important player for last 6-7 weeks and still has managed to keep us in second is an amazing job.People need to realize in the end you cannot compete with money unless you spend equal amount of it or unearth a geniune world class talent.
The point about hoarding players. I agree that if you buy a young player you have to give them time. However we hung onto Anderson for eight years when it was obvious it was not working. We just never seem to plan very well. We now have to replace Carrick, well hopefully Andreas is the answer as he is looking good, but what if he decides he wants to stay in Spain. I would have put my foot down and refused the loan, we really needed him.
Unfortunately it seems we might have a problem with Luke Shaw, is it him or is it Jose's attitude to him.

As someone said yes, Nani could be frustrating, but he was exciting and could produce a moment of magic. Instead we replaced Ronaldo with the efficient, but now seriously declining Valencia. He was no match for Ronaldo and now offers nothing going forward and with the other side being the same people wonder why we are not exciting.

I think it is more about us hanging onto old players too long and not planning ahead properly rather than the other end of the age scale.

This is a problem that has been building up over the years, it is a Manchester United problem not necessarily a Jose problem.

People keep knocking back the DOF idea, but would things have been planned better if we had brought one in after SAF left?
 

pocco

loco
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
23,065
Location
Keep a clean shit tomorrow, United is my final bus
This is the kind of argument that the like of Newcastle made to justify Keegan’s ‘entertainers’. It’s a straw man. Fergie didn’t mind beating those ‘entertainers’ by parking the bus and nicking a one-nil win against them. United’s ‘style’ is winning things. We did that last year and, given time, Jose will win us the big prizes too.
Fergie did it once a season maybe. Every other game he committed players forward and overwhelmed the opposition. If we went behind sometimes it was the best thing that happened as it triggered something in the team and it would be wave after wave of attack.

What we are seeing these days is night and day. If you think that this is the same as what Fergie brought then you are either in serious denial or have a shocking memory.
 

SirAF

Ageist
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
37,785
Location
This is the kind of argument that the like of Newcastle made to justify Keegan’s ‘entertainers’. It’s a straw man. Fergie didn’t mind beating those ‘entertainers’ by parking the bus and nicking a one-nil win against them. United’s ‘style’ is winning things. We did that last year and, given time, Jose will win us the big prizes too.
This.
 

Kapardin

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
9,917
Location
Chennai, India
Jose is the right fit for us and his style's fine.

No manager in the world apart from Ferguson can win the league with players like Mkhi, Mata, Herrera, Valencia, Young and Rashford. Therein lies the problem.
 

frank lee madeer..

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 3, 2016
Messages
894
Jose is the right fit for us and his style's fine.

No manager in the world apart from Ferguson can win the league with players like Mkhi, Mata, Herrera, Valencia, Young and Rashford. Therein lies the problem.
Claudio ranieri did it with far worse.
 

James Peril

New Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
3,576
I can understand the entitlement in the OP, given United’s success over the last 20 years, but it is not a godgiven right to be the best always. We are not like Celtic in Scotland or Rosenborg in Norway where I live, the level is so incredibly high in England. New owners, financing success within a year or two - it did not happen in 1999. United always had more money and power compared to everyone else, ut it’s not like that anymore. Even an unsuccessful club like Spurs can build a new stadium - due to football moving more and more towards being a business and industry.

Another huge problem facing us more than ever is that footballers want to combine their profession with lifestyle. They do not want to move to Manchester when they can live in London or Barcelona. Especially the South Americans and continental players. Much easier to grab a hold of the Germans, but they like to stay in Germany in general. Before everyone came to United because it was the obvious and only choice, nowadays we know that isn’t true anymore.

Football is about winning, not entertaining for the sake of it. Harsh reality, some clubs offer both, but in reality very few. I can only think of PSG, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man City. All of them are backed by substantial investment from rich owners or state funding.
 

OneUnited24

Full Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
9,867
While i agree with the notion of what you say i cant agree with it. We as fans always seem to play this card, oh its not the United way, but face facts thats not coming back anytime soon. Whilst we can say in the past we've played better with inferior players that was in a time where you could get away with it. After LvG we had a squad riddled with average players. Since Jose has joined a lot of those have been shown the door and better players brought in place.

Its still a process and whilst we've sorted our our defence and have a solid unit we havent invested nearly as much as we need to in our attacking players. Theres still a long way to go and i feel we should accept for the interim we wont be great to watch but have faith that he'll build a team with players who can play the way he wants. IMO yesterday wasnt a bad performance but when your main out ball is a player who cant control the ball or bring people into the game the teams overall style its going to suffer.
 

frank lee madeer..

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 3, 2016
Messages
894
In one of the weakest ever league seasons with almost every top team having problems.

If we had a half competent manager other than LvG, we would have won it that season ahead of Leicester even with average players.
So therefore,Jose won it the year before in similar circumstances. A very weak league. There are a lot of new managers turned up since then, & they've all got his number. The idea that his shit on a stick football will deliver the league in today's prem is more a 100/1 shot than the guarantee some would have us believe.
 

Kapardin

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
9,917
Location
Chennai, India
So therefore,Jose won it the year before in similar circumstances. A very weak league. There are a lot of new managers turned up since then, & they've all got his number. The idea that his shit on a stick football will deliver the league in today's prem is more a 100/1 shot than the guarantee some would have us believe.
And Jose's won the league several times in different countries, not just in one weak year. Unlike Ranieri.
 

Mr Anderson

Eats, shoots, leaves
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
24,306
Location
Ireland
We didn’t play “the United way” in Fergies last 3 years ffs. Grinded results. Fergie was a legend, but he had no problem playing sweaty. Robin van Persie papered over our huge cracks.

That been said, Mou needs to drop Mhki entirely for a few games as he is diabolical as of late. Pog coming back still won’t fill the big void from midfield to attack. Jones and Smalling showing their true colors...

Mou to blame with how we set up. But his players have left him down just as much, on the counter they are useless on the ball. I have no problem countering fast and creating chances, but we aren’t doing that as we aren’t competent enough on the ball