[Orton]

He's just not a Manchester United style player. Kagawa deserves a chance in the next game.

What exactly is that type of player?

 

[TwoSheds]

He'll not be getting it unless you're talking about MK Dons. Kagawa isn't even next in line.

Who's next in line? And I was talking about MK Dons. If he does well against them then he should play the next league game too.

 

[ottosec]

This Mata bashing is getting ridiculous lately. He was the best of our 3 star players and somehow he's getting all the shit.

 

[TwoSheds]

What exactly is that type of player?

Someone who has either a modicum of presence off the ball, or at least provides a huge threat on it e.g. Ronaldo. Mata is a luxury player and we've never had any success with luxury players at United.

 

[Mad Winger]

Just like Kagawa(or maybe to an even bigger degree?) Mata is very dependant on high tempo and having players on both wings running at players to create space and panic. But he still scores and assists! It's actually amazing how good he is at being at the right place at the right time. He must have better awareness in front of goal than 90% of top strikers.

Today's game perfectly illustrated why Mata is a dead on starter. He has the ability to get those simple tap-ins at any time, unlike most no.10's. I wouldn't trust Özil, Silva, Kagawa, Iniesta or Götze pull off the same on a bad day.

 

[acnumber9]

Who's next in line? And I was talking about MK Dons. If he does well against them then he should play the next league game too.

Januzaj clearly since he's been the go to player in both of our games. Playing against a League One side isn't really grounds for claiming a first team spot in the Premier League.

 

[Orton]

Someone who has either a modicum of presence off the ball, or at least provides a huge threat on it e.g. Ronaldo. Mata is a luxury player and we've never had any success with luxury players at United.

He's only a luxury player if you play him out of position or don't have the necessary back bone to get the best out of him i.e a competent midfield that can actually pass the ball forward quickly and effectively, and runners in behind a defence.

 

[Dylan94]

Someone who has either a modicum of presence off the ball, or at least provides a huge threat on it e.g. Ronaldo. Mata is a luxury player and we've never had any success with luxury players at United.

This is what I mean too. Too often he's absolutely invisible on the pitch when he's not on the ball. He's not got that presence and hardly moved around off the ball to get into good positions to receive it.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Players like Mata need the rest of the team to be at their 100% to look good. He thrives around quick tempo, sharp play, accurate passing and quick one twos. The closest thing to a one-two he's getting right now is Rooney's first touch. We will never see how good Mata is if our team keeps playing the way it is. Fletcher and Cleverley couldn't even get a 10 yard sideways pass right.

I am not comparing the two obviously as they are a long way apart in terms of ability but that sounds alarmingly like the excuses that used to be trotted out for Cleverley. Mata will need to offer a bit more to be a regular starter and actually adapt to differing circumstances and take the initiative. If he can't, then 38 million or not, we need to reconsider whether we play him.

 

[TwoSheds]

He's only a luxury player if you play him out of position or don't have the necessary back bone to get the best out of him i.e a competent midfield that can actually pass the ball forward quickly and effectively, and runners in behind a defence.

He's only a luxury player because he needs every other player in the team to fit in with his style and set him up in the right areas in order to be properly effective? Yep, that'll be the definition of a luxury player there.

 

[noodlehair]

I could maybe understand the sympathy for him if he didn't instantly look to go backwards or safe every time he picked up the ball, even though plenty of times he had time to turn and go towards goal.

I think he's a bit of an embarassment. He's the club's record signing and yet he's the biggest coward/bottler in the team.

I know people seem to have a thing for these fancy no10 type players, but sooner or later the excuses will run out.

First it was Mourinho being racist against him, then it was Moyes playing him out of position, then it was Moyes not picking the right players around him, now its all of his team mates faults for not carrying him enough. It's like listening to a bunch of derranged over protective mums.

What it is is that he needs to man the feck up and grow a pair instead of only showing up in games where the opposition don't.

I would just drop him personally. Though Rooney isn't faring much better with his array of sideways buckpasses.

 

[acnumber9]

He's only a luxury player because he needs every other player in the team to fit in with his style and set him up in the right areas in order to be properly effective? Yep, that'll be the definition of a luxury player there.

And you propose fixing this by playing Kagawa? Where have you been the last two years?

 

[Orton]

He's only a luxury player because he needs every other player in the team to fit in with his style and set him up in the right areas in order to be properly effective? Yep, that'll be the definition of a luxury player there.

A competent midfield, surely not asking too much?

 

[Lu Tze]

I could maybe understand the sympathy for him if he didn't instantly look to go backwards or safe every time he picked up the ball, even though plenty of times he had time to turn and go towards goal.

I think he's a bit of an embarassment. He's the club's record signing and yet he's the biggest coward/bottler in the team.

I know people seem to have a thing for these fancy no10 type players, but sooner or later the excuses will run out.

First it was Mourinho being racist against him, then it was Moyes playing him out of position, then it was Moyes not picking the right players around him, now its all of his team mates faults for not carrying him enough. It's like listening to a bunch of derranged over protective mums.

What it is is that he needs to man the feck up and grow a pair instead of only showing up in games where the opposition don't.

I would just drop him personally. Though Rooney isn't faring much better with his array sideways buckpasses.

As an AM he's scored 7 goals in his last 8 PL games in a horribly dysfunctional team filled with utter dross, with no competent CM's, and no competent wingers. And he's the problem?

 

[Ringo 07]

I'd say the odds are getting higher that soon Van Gaal will switch to 433 with Mata being the odd man out who gets benched...He's just not a Utd player and never will be

 

[TwoSheds]

And you propose fixing this by playing Kagawa? Where have you been the last two years?

Kagawa at least makes good runs and tries to make things happen. He's a site quicker than Mata too. I'm by no means sold on Kagawa but I've seen glimpses of a guy who could fit in at United - not really seen much of that in Mata myself.

 

[acnumber9]

Kagawa at least makes good runs and tries to make things happen. He's a site quicker than Mata too. I'm by no means sold on Kagawa but I've seen glimpses of a guy who could fit in at United - not really seen much of that in Mata myself.

The run made by Mata for the goal was shite enough too. Mata has performed better than Kagawa without ever setting the world alight himself. No great surprise given he's a better player.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

As an AM he's scored 7 goals in his last 8 PL games in a horribly dysfunctional team filled with utter dross, with no competent CM's, and no competent wingers. And he's the problem?

How many of those games resulted in wins though? He hasnt even nearly got the level he was at during our second season with him and that I think some of you overhype, we were an average team then and he shone.

 

[TwoSheds]

The run made by Mata for the goal was shite enough too. Mata has performed better than Kagawa without ever setting the world alight himself. No great surprise given he's a better player.

So play him as a poacher then if that's all he's good for. One good run does not a swallow make. Or something.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Players like Mata need the rest of the team to be at their 100% to look good. He thrives around quick tempo, sharp play, accurate passing and quick one twos. The closest thing to a one-two he's getting right now is Rooney's first touch. We will never see how good Mata is if our team keeps playing the way it is. Fletcher and Cleverley couldn't even get a 10 yard sideways pass right.

Sounds like what people were saying about Kagawa last year.

 

[goin4glory]

He, Rooney and RVP don't get the ball enough to be effective, constantly dropping deep because our midfield can't find them with a pass or make space for them.

Rooney is dropping deep because he is no longer capable of beating a defender or running in behind. He's taking up the same positions as Mata constantly. It was a problem for Kagawa when he first joined and he needs to stop trying to be a number 10 or midfielder he's incapable of it.

As for Mata you'll never see the best from him unless you get players with pace to take advantage of his passing range. Both Rooney and RVP couldn't beat O'shea in a straight race.

 

[acnumber9]

So play him as a poacher then if that's all he's good for. One good run does not a swallow make. Or something.

If you think that's all he's good for I'm not surprised you want Kagawa in the the team ahead of him. You obviously haven't been watching football for long.

 

[Zen]

Neville genuinely doesn't like this guy does he?

"He'll drop the £40m players, he's done it before" - Very vague about who he meant there briefing after saying RVP and Rooney were starters or something.

 

[Mister Ed]

As an AM he's scored 7 goals in his last 8 PL games in a horribly dysfunctional team filled with utter dross. And he's the problem?

I really don't get why people are lashing out at him.... what do they expect him to do, dribble past the entire defense with lightening pace to create chances for himself and score goal after goal from it ?

Mata is not such a player, never was, not even in his best time at Chelsea, he is a playmaker, his value comes from his ability to read the game and see opportunities that others wouldn't see and his ability to accuratley and quickly play the ball were he wants it. But if the other midfielders, wingers and strikers around him don't move about and create any openings there is not much he can do, except from trying to force things himself but that is not his game, trying to play some long balls and crosses and try to impact the game on a free kick or corner and I think he he has impacted our game quite alot since he has been here already, as you said 7 goals out of 8 games and also a couple of assists, it certainly not bad. He can improve and I have no doubt he will, but he'll never run the show alone, he is no Ronaldo, Bale or Suarez who can open up a game by theirselve and we all know he lacks the speed and defensive workrate to be effective on the wing, he needs to play in the hole and play intelligent balls behind the defense, but before he can start doing that we need midfielders, wingers and strikers that will make more runs and play faster, Di Maria will be a huge boost to Matas game aswell and Januzaj needs to start playing more games aswell and if Rooney and RVP keep playing like this then Welbeck deserves his chance in the team aswell.

 

[noodlehair]

As an AM he's scored 7 goals in his last 8 PL games in a horribly dysfunctional team filled with utter dross. And he's the problem?

I don't know about last season as most of the games were meaningless by the end and he seems to have no issue showing up once it's not important (i.e. when there's no pressure).

He's definitely been the main problem going forwards in the last two games. There were times today where he was picking the ball up facing the opposition goal, with no player close to him, and then TURNING AROUND to look for a backwards pass. It's annoying enough watching people like Carrick be too cowardly to try and create anything. Mata is in the team specifically to do that, and the club paid a record fee in order to get him to.

We have set up with a system specifically designed to cater for his position, at the expense of other players, and not only is he not doing the job but he's too scared to get on the ball and try. He certainly doesn't have the excuse of not being talented enough.

Van Persie and Welbeck's movement were fine today as well. Cleverley was running off the ball whenever he could. Young and Valencia constantly got forward to drag defenders away. All of the excuses people have made since this time last year, just don't wash. Our centrebacks were bringing the ball out of defence looking for a forward pass, and time and again Mata was nowhere to be seen.

 

[TwoSheds]

If you think that's all he's good for I'm not surprised you want Kagawa in the the team ahead of him. You obviously haven't been watching football for long.

I think you're wilfully misconstruing what I'm saying. He's a brilliant player. He doesn't fit in very well at Manchester United - I expect more than a good poacher's run in a game from a player with Mata's abilities.

Kagawa is a slightly less brilliant player. But I think he could fit in at Manchester United.

 

[Godfather]

I could maybe understand the sympathy for him if he didn't instantly look to go backwards or safe every time he picked up the ball, even though plenty of times he had time to turn and go towards goal.

I think he's a bit of an embarassment. He's the club's record signing and yet he's the biggest coward/bottler in the team.

I know people seem to have a thing for these fancy no10 type players, but sooner or later the excuses will run out.

First it was Mourinho being racist against him, then it was Moyes playing him out of position, then it was Moyes not picking the right players around him, now its all of his team mates faults for not carrying him enough. It's like listening to a bunch of derranged over protective mums.

What it is is that he needs to man the feck up and grow a pair instead of only showing up in games where the opposition don't.

I would just drop him personally. Though Rooney isn't faring much better with his array of sideways buckpasses.

Have to agree with your general sentiment, although you are a tad too harsh.

 

[LR7]

This thread is turning out just like the Kagawa thread. They both need runners to bring the best out of them.

 

[Kill 'em all]

I don't know about last season as most of the games were meaningless by the end and he seems to have no issue showing up once it's not important (i.e. when there's no pressure).

He's definitely been the main problem going forwards in the last two games. There were times today where he was picking the ball up facing the opposition goal, with no player close to him, and then TURNING AROUND to look for a backwards pass. It's annoying enough watching people like Carrick be too cowardly to try and create anything. Mata is in the team specifically to do that, and the club paid a record fee in order to get him to.

We have set up with a system specifically designed to cater for his position, at the expense of other players, and not only is he not doing the job but he's too scared to get on the ball and try. He certainly doesn't have the excuse of not being talented enough.

Van Persie and Welbeck's movement were fine today as well. Cleverley was running off the ball whenever he could. Young and Valencia constantly got forward to drag defenders away. All of the excuses people have made since this time last year, just don't wash. Our centrebacks were bringing the ball out of defence looking for a forward pass, and time and again Mata was nowhere to be seen.

He has a look inside the box and sees both Rooney and van Persie on the edge of the box with none of them making a run inside, of course he has to go sideways or backward. He didn't even have midfield runners in behind him to help our team penetrate the opposition back 4. Our team lacked movement, ideas and creativity.

 

[Lu Tze]

I don't know about last season as most of the games were meaningless by the end and he seems to have no issue showing up once it's not important (i.e. when there's no pressure).

He's definitely been the main problem going forwards in the last two games. There were times today where he was picking the ball up facing the opposition goal, with no player close to him, and then TURNING AROUND to look for a backwards pass. It's annoying enough watching people like Carrick be too cowardly to try and create anything. Mata is in the team specifically to do that, and the club paid a record fee in order to get him to.

We have set up with a system specifically designed to cater for his position, at the expense of other players, and not only is he not doing the job but he's too scared to get on the ball and try. He certainly doesn't have the excuse of not being talented enough.

Van Persie and Welbeck's movement were fine today as well. Cleverley was running off the ball whenever he could. Young and Valencia constantly got forward to drag defenders away. All of the excuses people have made since this time last year, just don't wash. Our centrebacks were bringing the ball out of defence looking for a forward pass, and time and again Mata was nowhere to be seen.

Nobody's movement was "fine" today. Our strikers/wingers are the most static forwards I've ever seen. 90% of the time they're standard still/walking, looking longingly at the man with the ball rather than actually doing anything. He is not one to dribble through defences, he relies on others making runs which our forwards appear uniquely incapable of doing.

In fact, I actually remember Mata penetrating the box a couple of times...something our other forwards failed at horribly.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

I don't know about last season as most of the games were meaningless by the end and he seems to have no issue showing up once it's not important (i.e. when there's no pressure).

He's definitely been the main problem going forwards in the last two games. There were times today where he was picking the ball up facing the opposition goal, with no player close to him, and then TURNING AROUND to look for a backwards pass. It's annoying enough watching people like Carrick be too cowardly to try and create anything. Mata is in the team specifically to do that, and the club paid a record fee in order to get him to.

We have set up with a system specifically designed to cater for his position, at the expense of other players, and not only is he not doing the job but he's too scared to get on the ball and try. He certainly doesn't have the excuse of not being talented enough.

Van Persie and Welbeck's movement were fine today as well. Cleverley was running off the ball whenever he could. Young and Valencia constantly got forward to drag defenders away. All of the excuses people have made since this time last year, just don't wash. Our centrebacks were bringing the ball out of defence looking for a forward pass, and time and again Mata was nowhere to be seen.

You were on to something until you started talking about movement.

 

[thejtrain]

He does very little for my liking. Today's game doesn't show how good he is, but just pathetic everyone around is. I don't want him dropped, just not yet, he really needs to involve more though. Doesn't look like a player currently one would pay that much amount for.

 

[noodlehair]

He has a look inside the box and sees both Rooney and van Persie on the edge of the box with none of them making a run inside, of course he has to go sideways or backward. He didn't even have midfield runners in behind him to help our team penetrate the opposition back 4. Our team lacked movement, ideas and creativity.

No one's going to make a run inside the box when we have it centrally and the opposition have their entire team lined up behind the ball, because it would be literally impossible to find them with a pass. That's why good teams always play at a tempo.

I think you'll find if you watch the game back without your Mata mothering glasses on, that the main issue was the amount of time it was taking anyone to get the ball off our centrebacks and actually go towards the opposition goal.

It wasn't just Mata, but he IS the player who's role in the team is specifically to be a playmaker (i.e. to make sure this isn't an issue), and half the time he wasn't even showing for the ball let alone doing anything with it.

He doesn't look like a good player in a shite team. He looks like a pointless player hiding in a shite team.

But yeah whatever, it's everyone and everything else on the planet that's making him play poorly. Nothing to do with himself at all.

 

[Vato]

I think he's the source of all evil.

 

[noodlehair]

At the end of the day the mainthing he's done so far is look good in a, by their standards, poor Chelsea side, when the team was specifically built to play around him.

Mourinho came in and wanted a functional, efficient team as he always does, and suddenly found that whatever role he put Mata in, he didn't do enough, so benched him and then got rid.

People seemed to want to overlook that, and to be honest I was willing to if he'd come in here and done the business, but so far he hasn't. He's turned it on when the team as a whole have been spanking the likes of Norwich. When the games are tougher you invariably seem to find the luxury of him being there turns into more of a burden.

He's talented enough to do something about that but I'm not convinced he has the guts or fire in him to make it happen. He reminds me of Veron or Berbatov.

 

[Mister Ed]

No one's going to make a run inside the box when we have it centrally and the opposition have their entire team lined up behind the ball, because it would be literally impossible to find them with a pass. That's why good teams always play at a tempo.

I think you'll find if you watch the game back without your Mata mothering glasses on, that the main issue was the amount of time it was taking anyone to get the ball off our centrebacks and actually go towards the opposition goal.

It wasn't just Mata, but he IS the player who's role in the team is specifically to be a playmaker (i.e. to make sure this isn't an issue), and half the time he wasn't even showing for the ball let alone doing anything with it.

He doesn't look like a good player in a shite team. He looks like a pointless player hiding in a shite team.

But yeah whatever, it's everyone and everything else on the planet that's making him play poorly. Nothing to do with himself at all.

I don't think he is been playing half as poorly as people are making him out to be.

What do people want exactly ? Playing him another position, benching him, selling him ? What good will that do us, we all know he is by far our best option on the 10, we know he can be a massive player, have people given up on him or something ? We need to support him, play him in the n10 position and do something about the really bad players like Cleverley, Fletcher, Young , Valencia and set him up to succeed, it is what you do with your good players....Surely Mata deserves our support and the time to turn things around, he might be one of the few in the team that actually has the skill to do that, together with Januzaj and RVP and Rooney. If people start to give up on these players aswell and want them out, I truely wouldn't know what we have to do as a club, these players are the way forward for us, helping them to succeed should be our and the managers number one priority.

I get people are frustrated about the result, more than anything, but I taking it out on Mata is just not fair and won't solve anything. He wasn't one of the worst players on the pitch, he was one of the few decent ones and he is the one that scored the goal that got us a point, his 7th goal in 8 games so far, the best player at Chelsea for two seasons, fecking get some perspective !

He isn't part of the problem he is part of the solution, people really need to start seeing that !

 

[noodlehair]

I will always support players who give it their all and aren't afraid to try.

I'm not going to waste my time blindly supporting players who hide from the ball or are too scared to try and do anything with it, just because they're apparently nice blokes or have some army of biased, heat map loving internet fans.

He needs to man up and show he's got an ounce of fight in him. Otherwise he very much IS part of the problem, as he was today and against Swansea.

 

[LR7]

Seems like Mata is this season's scapegoat.

 

[noodlehair]

Not at all. I thought Jones, Blackett and Keane were the only three who were better than crap today. At least with players like Cleverley for example though, it's because they're genuinely not that good.

When you've got Mata and Rooney, supposedly two of the best attacking players in the league, pioneering the new found skill, the "buckpass", it's fair they should shoulder more of the responsibility for the resulting shite performance, because they are the ones who have zero excuse to not be doing better.

Valencia is another. He might not be as good as he was but even if he was, he'd never find out because he's become too shit scared to try and do anything a below bog standard player couldn't do.

If you don't like or want the responsibility of being a United player, then you're not a United player. Basically

 

[Sandikan]

why are people moaning about Mata? Or are we doing that exceptionally irritating thing after every non win, of systematically moaning about a different player on every thread.