Wut? How many duels does Pirlo win?
Juan Mata as deep-lying playmaker (DLP)
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
He isn’t one of the few natural no 10s left these days and th fact we have never really seen him there is a travesty
Mata loses all the 50/50 challenges when he plays wide. with someone as weak as this in the central of our midfield we will concede goals for fun. It's the PL.. he is much better linking the midfield with the attack and helping create the triangles on both wings. We would seriously be limiting mata if he got moved to deep lying playmaker. He needs the free role and not stick to just RW/DLP. Periera is better suited for me. He can pass both short and long and is stronger on the ball.
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What can a deep lying playmaker do when we control 30 %of possession against half decent sides and the left and right sided strikers play as wingbacks half the time, even fullbacks at times. The opponents will have enough time to press us and hold our play while we will also struggle to create in front of the opposition
I assume used similar to Pirlo.
No he doesn't.
Mata doesn't have the acceleration or agilty to escape from a press, so a bad idea.
People using Pirlo as an example, pressing wasn't popular at his prime. Whenever he was pressed he struggled (Ji Sung-Park,Welbeck) comes to mind.
People using Pirlo as an example, pressing wasn't popular at his prime. Whenever he was pressed he struggled (Ji Sung-Park,Welbeck) comes to mind.
He is too weak and too slow. Aaron Mooy's goal against us last season is why this would be a bad idea.
Don't think Pirlo struggled when he was pressed. He struggled against us when Park man marked him but apart from that he always did well. He knew how to make space and also his control in tight space was very good.
Also don't think Mata can play as deeper midfielder at all. His best asset is his ability to find space in attacking third, that won't be of any use if he plays deeper.
Well pressing is a form of man marking, you press the 1st man with the ball and then press/man mark the ball outlets so they have no room to escape.
Pirlo individually couldn't run away from people, he was just smart enough to get rid of the ball quickly.
Anyway, Mata has never played that position in his life and I think it would be a bad idea. We'd be better off buying a proper CDM talent like De Jong.
Yes, man marking is sort of pressing but that's the only time when he really struggled. Apart from that, he was very good in dealing with press. He had good ability in tight space. You beat the press as a team, not just individually unless the player is Messi.
For example, if you press Xavi and man mark all the players where he don't have any passing options he will struggle too as he can't dribble past players like Iniesta or Messi but all his career he barley struggled when pressed. Pirlo is same but a level below. They move the ball quickly either by passing or quick feet in tight space and then play the pass.
Yeah of course some teams are good enough to ride the press, Barcelona never let you settle long enough to push them backwards let alone press them
Anyway, we certainly couldn't do that with this team, we know Mata's qualtiies but I don't think being a DLP is one of them.
If you remember utd vs Liverpool game in second season at old Trafford when ibra levelled very late for us ,even Carrick was pressed by klopp damn effectively in a 4141 system we were playing back then and mourinho had to sub him out at half time and we struggled to create decent chances and playmake. Mata will hardly make a difference against pressing opponents . good managers know strategies to beat the dlp tactics. Our movement doesn't allow us to carve out the opponents.
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I completely agree with the OP. I could definitely see him excelling in that role. Many people forget that Pirlo started off as an attacking player but as he got older moved into a DLP role. This wouldn't be a role I would throw him in against a big team, but against teams that we should beat I would give it a try. Some people have said he's too slow for that position and I don't get that. Speed is overrated in midfield. Carrick never had any pace and he was excellent as a DLP. Where you need speed is on the wing yet most people don't have any problem with him playing there. As players mature they typically get smarter, and we all know that Mata is already an intelligent footballer. Only problem is I don't even think Mourinho would even think about trying him in this role. He would see him as "too small"
Lesser team will try to physically dominate him in the midfield and play long ball stuff to win first and second balls.
Pirlo moved to the DLP role when he was 21. And I think people vastly underestimate the defensive instincts and engine the likes of Pirlo, Scholes and Xavi had.
Mata doesn't have the right skillset to excel where Pirlo did. The likes of Pirlo and Xavi made it look easy but it's a very specialised position. Mata is at his best moving towards the final third. More Lampard than Pirlo.
Also not saying Mata cant ride a challenge but being the fulcrum just ahead of the CBs in the most physical league in Europe doesn't seem a good idea for a winger turned attacking midfielder. Herrera Matic and Pogba are the only realistic options for that role and Pogba doesn't know his position most of the time, Herrera is MIA and Matic is already trying to do it but finding it difficult. Centre backs more comfortable on the ball would help but I dont see a technical dlp being a priority when we generally play it direct to beat the press against nost opposition. We're not a possession based side that relies on silky passing from the CBs to the midfield.
What we really could do with is the 07/08 version of Carrick.
Also not saying Mata cant ride a challenge but being the fulcrum just ahead of the CBs in the most physical league in Europe doesn't seem a good idea for a winger turned attacking midfielder. Herrera Matic and Pogba are the only realistic options for that role and Pogba doesn't know his position most of the time, Herrera is MIA and Matic is already trying to do it but finding it difficult. Centre backs more comfortable on the ball would help but I dont see a technical dlp being a priority when we generally play it direct to beat the press against nost opposition. We're not a possession based side that relies on silky passing from the CBs to the midfield.
What we really could do with is the 07/08 version of Carrick.
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Put the can down
I think it's definitely an interesting idea, but one that wouldn't work in the current setup of the side.
He definitely has the positional awareness and vision to play the role, as well as the passing accuracy (with short passes). I think other posters saying that he hasn't got the passing range is a bit harsh as he has never been in a position where he has had to utilise long passes often. I can't think of many other no. 10's or right wingers that regularly pass long (apart from Rooney to Valencia).
I think in order for it to work, we would have to completely change our style of play, and switch to a possession based system where we regularly get 70%+ of the ball most matches. This is how both Xavi and Porto shone as the deep lying playmaker. This would never happen under Mourinho as his whole mantra is that you can't make mistakes when you don't have the ball.
Even though I'd have faith in Mata to play the role well, I don't have faith in the rest of the team in a possession based system. Only one of our centre backs (Lindelof), would be comfortable, and we'd have to get almost a new starting eleven for it to work properly, which isn't very realistic.
However, I would love to see a system like this in place with a more forward thinking manager, and I think Pereira has similar attributes, so one can hope this changes in the future!
The long ball would be to a striker and Mata would have two centre halves behind him still...
No thanks, his passing isn’t that great or expansive, as someone else said his strength is more his movement and timing at arriving on a ball at the right time. Take him out of this and he’d be more of a hinderance as his playmaking isn’t really all that great.
Pereria on the other hand has a more expansive game and range of passing compared to Mata.
Pereria on the other hand has a more expansive game and range of passing compared to Mata.
Well I remember Mata losing the ball on the half way line away to Huddersfield last season, they scored from that mistake. His lack of pace and weakness is a risk the closer you play him to the goal. Keep him near the opposition's goal please!
Not a bad idea IMO. He certainly wouldn't the first player of his ilk to make such a transition - Cazorla and Modric recently, Pirlo and Schweinsteiger (a bit different perhaps) before. Wonder how many people would have scoffed at the idea of them moving deeper? You don't need to be spraying 60 yard passes to be very effective in that position.
His ability to dictate the tempo is obvious and could maybe be utilised more effectively from deep. His finishing is good but other than that he just doesn't influence the game enough as an attacker for me. He gets muscled off the ball very easily when playing further forward where there is less space, moving deeper could potentially help with that too.
His ability to dictate the tempo is obvious and could maybe be utilised more effectively from deep. His finishing is good but other than that he just doesn't influence the game enough as an attacker for me. He gets muscled off the ball very easily when playing further forward where there is less space, moving deeper could potentially help with that too.
No truth in that
. He may be a deep laying playmakers.I like the idea, our smartest player on the ball by far.
No truth in that
This thread needs locking
Use him high up the pitch or don't use him at all.
While the two cbs themselves need fellani to bail them out of oppositions long balls and crosses. Mata won't be able to pick up second balls in that area.
As we rarely press we are not in control of the ball in mid and thus mata would have to perform significant defensive work in the middle which would expose him.
But 1 of them would be Lindelof or Bailly...
Wow 3 pages for this?
Obviously playing someone like Mata in DLP would make for an entire change of tactics. So for it work we would need to press from the front to take away long passes. Don't give them time to set up long balls. Then it turns from a long pass to defenders just dumping it up the field, which our defenders "should" be able to handle. But yes, our central defenders have to be doing much better than they are...
I will be surprised if Bailley ever plays again. Too bad too, he started off looking like the real deal. Now he's in Jose's doghouse and I won't be surprised if he's moved to make room for a new central defender
I actually agree. I feel like Rojo and Bailly are the ones on the chopping block this summer. Rojo was awful last season and Bailly, albeit in 5 games has been awful this season.
I don't mind Rojo when he plays in the middle, but he's horrible at LB. Good 3rd or 4th option though
Not sure about this? in a slower league perhaps but I'd give plenty of others a chance there before Mata. I'd like to see Pereira get more opportunities there.
Caveat to that - it's not like we don't have the money to go and buy someone who already plays there, either an ready made start or a younger talent in their early 20s, which is a much safer bet than trying Mata there. While I definitely do think it could work... I'd still much rather just buy someone like Frenkie de Jong for example.
Ah, the
Epimenides paradox.
Mata appears to avoid any form of physical contact. He does not mark anyone on oppositions' throw ins or free kicks, he avoids tackles and gets rid of the ball as quickly as he can when he is outside of our opponent's penalty box.
He is only useful around the penalty box, a midfield goal poacher. A dlp has to play some defense and that is not within Mata's repertoire.
He is only useful around the penalty box, a midfield goal poacher. A dlp has to play some defense and that is not within Mata's repertoire.
Mata's only good position is as a DLS (deep-lying sub).