Messi's physical prowess contributes heavily to his legendary status. Johan Cruyff was a true technician. He won his first Ballon D'or scoring just one goal in the European Cup. The only way to achieve that these days is to be a defender, I suppose, a really good one at that.
Jude Bellingham | Real Madrid player
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The technical level of them is definitely lower than the top players in the previous generation due to the needs of modern football in comparison to before.
Obviously. He’s less reliant on it though.
Yeah I’d just say that the stress on physicality has been steadily going up as tactics have moved towards the high intense press etc Beyond that certain technical genius comes along once in awhile. Not that this generation’s top players are set in stone - for all we know Musiala and Pedri will be the standout players. feck knows.
Um what? Regardless, Cryuff was a prolific goal scorer. Had a better goal scoring record compared to most attacking midfielders these days.
I can't warm to Bellingham yet. It's too early to judge. There is a bit of snobbyness about him and he's annoying sometimes on the field (e.g. playacting against Italy in the last match or directly calling his Dortmund teammate shit on the field for misplacing a pass).
He also never had a natural love for the game. In interviews he's mentioned more than once that his dad was football mad and wanted him to play it. He hated it at the start until he learnt to love it. Or does he really just love making good money and getting attention? Who knows. Just harder to warm up to player's who don't have natural passion for the game.
He'll compete in an era with Musiala, Xavi Simons, Wirtz. Can't see how he's so much better than them considering all this hype. We'll see.
He also never had a natural love for the game. In interviews he's mentioned more than once that his dad was football mad and wanted him to play it. He hated it at the start until he learnt to love it. Or does he really just love making good money and getting attention? Who knows. Just harder to warm up to player's who don't have natural passion for the game.
He'll compete in an era with Musiala, Xavi Simons, Wirtz. Can't see how he's so much better than them considering all this hype. We'll see.
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He didn’t love football until he turned eight, which is a bit like most kids to be honest. He started is a bit of a non-legend, scoring over 800 goals.
He’s a generational talent. I remember people said Ronaldo was crap once upon a time.
I could be wrong but I get the feeling the facilities argument etc gets overblown. Our managers have spent the majority of the time since Fergie at panic stations trying to save their job in the short term and so almost obliged to play their strongest 11. Ajax have in recent times been almost guaranteed top 2. Dortmund aren't generally expected to challenge Bayern. This gives the clubs and the manager the breathing space think longer term and give young talent far more game time. If they have a "bad" year and end up 3rd/4th in their league there isn't such a strong demand that the manager get immediately binned unless it is their 1st season.I agree. I still find it a bit strange how Haaland and Jude were allowed to join Dortmund over United.
A really sad reflection of our clubs facilities if we can’t be trusted to bring young players to the top of the game. In the past that was our bragging right.
They’d maybe move to Real but that’s fine if you’re getting a stacked transfer fee to invest in your future squad.
We were onto a great model in the 00’s. Sell Ronaldo for 80m fine but then the Glazer’s took all the money so stopped the success dead in its tracks. Hazard / Robben should have been signed with that cash plus and a few others but we got Owen on a free
It wasn’t even that much to ask as the model worked! At least it worked when not a billion in debt with owners taking dividends. Then it became “let’s service the debt” stick Cleverly in midfield.
How we won titles after 2010 was Fergie’s greatest achievement.
You can't have your cake and eat it in the Premier League unless you're City at the moment. You can look at clubs like Brighton but they don't have the same expectations, in the hypothetical scenario we'd sold all our "stars" and got all of their players before Brighton did, played them all and subsequently came 6th like they did then manager is getting sacked.
He really, really wouldn't have.
So you can name a few players at Europa League level with Messi's technique and skill but less physically blessed?
I’m feeling so Fcuking smug about previously describing him as a mix of Robbo and Gerrard, and suggesting he’ll be Englands best ever player.
The lad is obscenely good. He’s got the lot. Only injuries will stop him spending the next 3-5 years rampaging, and the next however many years after evolving into a less explosive but still game controlling/changing midfielder.
The lad is obscenely good. He’s got the lot. Only injuries will stop him spending the next 3-5 years rampaging, and the next however many years after evolving into a less explosive but still game controlling/changing midfielder.
Well, unless he means it literally. But then if he wouldn't have been able to move at all he probably wouldn't be playing football at any level.
True. I just think that someone with his intelligence, dribbling, passing, creativity, vision, finishing etc would be a Champions League player even without his extreme strength and acceleration.
Yeah, there's no doubt about that.
In comparison to who? Don’t really agree Mbappe is as technical as any world class forward of the past eras not named Henry or R9, I mean George Weah won the B’allon d’or in 95? Mbappe is on a similar level technically, maybe a tad better.
Bellingham isn’t less technical than most the top world class British midfielders of the 90’s either, Keane Lampard etc.
Haaland is the only one that stands out as his pretty average technically, I can kind of agree with you here in previous eras i’m not sure a player like Haaland is considered best in the world level, saying that he scores at an obscene rate, but technically there are about 10 strikers better than him in the PL alone let alone Europe.
Yeah, he would still be in contention for the best striker in the world due to his sheer level of productivity. Wouldn't be enough to elevate him to best player in the world status though.
Messi never moved much off the ball; usually walking until suddenly exploding into life and leaving everybody for dead. That explosiveness dictated the game for him and the opposition because both knew exactly what could and would happen at any given time. Combined with an almost peerless low centre of gravity and power from the ground up, he also had the strength and balance to ride and/or roll players to even execute said burst of pace. Combine these factors and take them away - Messi would have had to play in a completely different way. Everything he forged a career on would be gone; his physical attributes are immense, not just good or great, and it’s extremely reductive thinking by some to think it’s only tall, giant powerhouses who display absolutely phenomenal physical attributes on a football pitch; Messi’s entire game is dependent on them and there’s the company of Maradona for the balance he has, which means he wrong foots opponents seamlessly, which sets up so much of the other stuff.
You take his physical prowess away and have him play practically non-contact and he’d have to do so much off the ball jogging that we’re talking about a player Messi never was, even now. If Messi could just be bundled into to win the ball off him, he’s barely going to get the chance to display his vast array of skills. Nearly all the all-time greats are carried by their physical prowess and their games are dictated by it, which is logical; you’re into the realms of Platini for those that wouldn’t have to change much, or could truly display their entire skill set without their physical advantages, and even then, take Platini’s stamina away, and he can’t work for openings with any frequency thus changing his game and, I’d think, making him less effective by some margin.
Honestly, great post. I think my issue is that even without Messi's physical advantages, I would assume that he could simply be a technical upgrade on a player such as Ozil. Although, the question is obviously futile because it is obviously dependent on how much you want to remove from him physically.
There's no way Cruyff is winning Ballon D'or these days with these stats. This is the social media age where tons of clueless people are following goal-scorers like influencers. If there was social media back then, Gerd Muller would probably have at least 4-5 Ballon D'ors over Beckenbauer and Cruyff, yet the poor guy only has 1 simply because he lived in the long era. Look at all the fuss about Haaland.. Gerd Muller was way better, and also the most clutch player ever..
If there was no social media now, it would be KDB rather that would be perceived to be at the top of the food chain along with Messi. At no time in football history, tap-ins & "number" of goals received that much attention.
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We often hear of really, really talented youngsters being considered too small to play or to make it, but I don't think it's physical stature that is the obstacle in and of itself, it's being too meek or lacking the athletic prowess in support of their game, which makes everything so much harder for them. 'Earning the right to play' is a real thing and the moment you lack the attributes to compete, you're not going to be contested fairly as opposed to just barreled over or through with whatever amazing skill you might have being pushed wayside.
Ozil lacked stamina, but he was a decent enough athlete to be able to play his game for as long as his tank would allow. He played much cleaner than someone like Messi, obviously because he didn't have the dribbling and weaving to be slaloming through teams but also because he didn't have the strength or low centre of gravity to be tussling non-stop. Don't forget also that tussling and wrestling for position and shielding the ball whilst maintaining balance is exhausting (effectively carrying the half-weight of another whilst trying to power away from them) so just not an option for someone like Ozil who has a poor tank in the first place.
Perhaps we can cite a Sancho and his physical meekness in the PL. He's reliant on others to play his game - dependent on intricate 1-2's and evasive actions to avoid as much contact as possible, and even then, he struggles in terms of stamina. Sancho is some way off the physical bar for the PL and it shows, unfortunately.
Messi is deceptive because he's diminutive and apparently doesn't do much in terms of physical exertion, but he's contextually more like an apex predator than prey. Everything is short, explosive and decisive, but all the components to be devastating at what he does are there and not far off maxxed out in comparison to practically everyone else.
I dunno. Going into the ‘98 World Cup there was (rightly or wrongly) an honest discussion over who was the best player in the world; Ronaldo, Shearer or Del Piero.
Haaland is ‘just’ a modern day Shearer, in an era of weaker centre halves.
It’s too easy to assume that ‘technique’ is just ball control and manipulation. Both Haaland and Shearer play ugly. Win the physical battle, don’t feck about, have feet quick enough to shift it to a position you can hit the ball very hard, on target. I don’t see all technical ability as equal. Those two are technically perfect for the roles they’re playing.
I see the similarities between Haaland and Shearer. Ronaldo was a different animal altogether. For my money, Shearer was comfortably the better player technically, although he did lack a bit of Haaland's pace. Well, after his first major injury anyway.
Ozil was pretty quick himself.
Spot on.
I think that discussion was probably only in England.
Shearer I think was technically better than Haaland also, Haaland is even more gifted physically though, in terms of explosiveness and sheer pace.
Not sure why you only compared to British midfielders but Bellingham isn't technically better than players like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric etc who were the top midfielders of the previous generation but doesn't need to be either as his physical attributes and tactical intelligence are elite.
Also don't think Mbappe has better technique than elite wide forwards in the previous generation such as Henry, Hazard, Robben, Ribery etc. but again doesn't need to be.
I don't think either Mbappe or Bellingham are average technically but their athletic prowess is definitely key to their game and the modern game in general.
Xavi and Iniesta were literally part of the same team generation and proponents of the same philosophy. Before them and during their time you still had midfielders who were similar to Bellingham who were finishing on B’allon d’or podiums.
Mbappes comparison would be more Henry, Robben Ribery Hazard are more wide playmakers/wingers Mbappe is of the Henry Weah cloth, wide forwards who can interchangeably play number 9.
Out of those names you mentioned Robben and Henry are some of the best athletes this sport has seen, Ribery was no slouch either.
Athletic ability has always been key in football is kinda the point I’m trying to make, especially when you’re looking at the very very top players, Best Pele Maradona Garrincha Eusebio all had incredible technique but without they’re physical prowess they’re not being named in the top 10 players to ever play this game.
We wouldn’t sell the majority of our team though. Haaland and Bellingham are like Ronaldo in that they come along once or twice in a generation.
They would be at United until 25 I imagine and wouldn’t have cost a lot to acquire them. You sell them for a good 150m a piece hopefully and the that’s 300m - 400m after wages to reinvest in the squad on just two players leaving.
That’s the sort of money that helps you challenge for titles on top of players like Bruno, Rashford etc who stick around longer. Everyone has the odd poor season in transition apart from City because they can cheat easily and have Pep.
You have to get generational players right now to even compete with City
Strange way to put it. Cruyff won his first Ballon D’or when he was 24. And prior to that, he already had 198 goals in 240 games. Basically he was prolific goalscorer all along when he won all his Ballon D’ors. His goals only start to dry up after his move to Barca to play a more influential role further deep, by that time he was already fully established world star player.
Right.
He’s the closest thing to Zidane I’ve seen since the great man retired in terms of a midfielder who is creative and just glides across the field.
Love Bellinghams style. A little bit of a throwback to the 90’s and early 00’s.
Zidane had better vision maybe but Jude seems more dynamic at times due to the game been more attacking now I think.
Both got into dangerous areas and can use physically in the box. It’s like you’ve got an extra centre forward.
Love Bellinghams style. A little bit of a throwback to the 90’s and early 00’s.
Zidane had better vision maybe but Jude seems more dynamic at times due to the game been more attacking now I think.
Both got into dangerous areas and can use physically in the box. It’s like you’ve got an extra centre forward.
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I'm not saying that athletic ability was never needed. Just that the new generation are a level above athletically and a level technically below when comparing in my opinion to other midfielders/forwards at the top. This is helped by sports science developments but also tactical improvements in the game. We obviously differ on that opinion and that's fine.
Nah I’m just arguing to argue at this point
, I agree with you.Honestly, I don't think they are a level below.
Like you said with sports science developments, it can be argued that players today are more technical. They know what are the trainings to work on, the muscle group to develop to enhance their skills, their understanding of their own styles etc. Also with the globalization of football, it also can be said that there is a far larger talent pool compared to the past.
Right now with the high focus on the tactical side of the game. I think what we are seeing is less individuality on the pitch, less creativity, less freedom of expression. This can be perceived as a being less "technical".
I was thinking of players like Juan Mata who were too slow and weak to be an elite player, Europa League player might be an exaggeration, but it was more just to point out that technical doesn't stand out without some physical attributes to go with it and that applies to Messi as well as the other players.
He doesn't play like somebody who can take or leave the game. Looks very invested to me.
I think the issue is there's a lot of overlap between 'technical' and 'physical' abilities', so we'll get different answers depending on how we define things. If physical abilities are speed and strength then you can be great without them, if only because there's many more non-physical abilities.
I agree. But you have to accept that it's very rare that these players when still very young are going to consistently be great. Ronaldo was not amazing the 1st couple of seasons with us, the talent was obvious but the end product lacking. The fact we had such a good team meant by in large he could be carried in games where it didn't click and he constantly attempted ten thousand step overs and lost the ball repeatedly. We haven't had that luxury in recent times and with rare exceptions (e.g.Garnacho) we'll play dross or players out of position to fill a hole rather than giving an academy prospect gametime because the managers are in panic mode and opt for the devil they know.
The players won't get the game time here and they and their advisors know it, there is no patience at the moment from either the leadership or the fans for a 20 year old to take a couple of seasons with semi-regular game time to find their feet.
Messi could not train and be the same. He’s a born natural. His biggest turning point was the growth hormone which he needed medically.
Ronaldo would be a Europa player if he was not an obsessive beast of a trainer. Ronaldo is the role model to those who want to see the rewards of hard work.
Ronaldo would be a Europa player if he was not an obsessive beast of a trainer. Ronaldo is the role model to those who want to see the rewards of hard work.
Ronaldo is also gifted, but just not Messi level. His hardwork, dedictation, and professionalism lift him to the level that he could compete with Messi for a decade. Unreal.
Hazard is also gifted, but he was an lazy trainer.