Julian Assange arrested in Ecuadorian Embassy

[Raoul]

I don't have enough faith in "the system" to believe that. His only way of staying alive from now on is to be useful to whoever is in power. That's why he helped Trump / Republicans, but he's probably served his purpose for them so now he's just a incriminating witness.

At this point there are a list of charges he could have brought against him so he will be in prison for the test of his life. If however he did nothing wrong from a legal perspective, he would walk. This is a system that allowed OJ to walk, so Assange could be set free. It’s all moot though since he is at this stage probably sitting on a variety of crimes.

 

[Raoul]

So if I understand correctly, Assange worked with Russia to help Trump get elected. So now why is the Trump administration trying to extradite him to be tried in the US? Wouldn't they be terrified that threatened with jail time he would reveal how they all conspired to to cheat to get Trump elected?

They don't need him anymore, so much as anyone in Trump's past - he will be thrown under the bus. Also, no one in the U.S. will believe Assange if he complains, since he made his bed with the GRU.

 

[Abizzz]

At this point there are a list of charges he could have brought against him so he will be in prison for the test of his life. If however he did nothing wrong from a legal perspective, he would walk. This is a system that allowed OJ to walk, so Assange could be set free. It’s all moot though since he is at this stage probably sitting on a variety of crimes.

I simply do not think that the US should have jurisdiction over an Australian residing in a third country. Especially when they've frenzied themselves into a state where hardly any punishment they dish out actually passes the not "Cruel and unusual punishment" test by the standards of the rest of the developed world.


Plenty of Americans could rot in Iranian jails for the rest of their lives if Iranian law were suddenly enforced by proxy and Americans were "arrested" on various airports of countries they have good relations with. Would that be right?


This is simply the US secret services taking revenge on someone who has shown them up to be utter and complete hypocrites.

 

[Raoul]

I simply do not think that the US should have jurisdiction over an Australian residing in a third country. Especially when they've frenzied themselves into a state where hardly any punishment they dish out actually passes the not "Cruel and unusual punishment" test by the standards of the rest of the developed world.


Plenty of Americans could rot in Iranian jails for the rest of their lives if Iranian law were suddenly enforced by proxy and Americans were "arrested" on various airports of countries they have good relations with. Would that be right?


This is simply the US secret services taking revenge on someone who has shown them up to be utter and complete hypocrites.

This is why countries negotiate extradition treaties with one another - to prevent people who are fugitives from the law in one country to abscond from justice in others. Assange could've easily avoided all of this by not doing what he did.

 

[Abizzz]

This is why countries negotiate extradition treaties with one another - to prevent people who are fugitives from the law in one country to abscond from justice in others. Assange could've easily avoided all of this by not doing what he did.

The US doesn't even extradite members of the security community if it's a clear cut case like killing a teenager by driving on the wrong side of the road. Assange did a service to the 7.7billion people in this world who aren't American, and arguably to the 330 million US citizens who now at least have the opportunity to educate themselves on the activities of a opaque government claiming to act in their interest.

From Wikipedia:

Controversy surrounding WikiLeaks reached its greatest intensity after Assange published a quarter of a million U.S. diplomatic cables,[90] known as the "Cablegate" files, in November 2010, initially working with established Western media organisations, and later with smaller regional media organisations, while also publishing the cables upon which their reporting was based.[91][92] The files showed United States espionage against United Nations and other world leaders,[93][94][95] revealed tensions between the U.S. and its allies, and exposed corruption in countries throughout the world as documented by U.S. diplomats, helping to spark the Arab Spring.[96][97] The Cablegate and Iraq and Afghan War releases impacted diplomacy and public opinion globally, with responses varying by region.[92]
Opinions of Assange at this time were divided. Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard described his activities as "illegal",[98] but the police said he had not broken Australian law.[99] United States Vice-President Joe Biden and others called him a "terrorist".[100][101][102][103][104] Some called for his assassination or execution.[105][106][107][108][109] Support for Assange came from Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva,[110] Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa,[111] Russian President Dmitry Medvedev,[112][113] British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn (then a backbench MP),[114] Spanish Podemos party leader Pablo Iglesias,[115] UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay,[116] and Argentina's ambassador to the UK, Alicia Castro.[117] He also garnered support from many leading activists and celebrities, including Tariq Ali,[118] John Perry Barlow,[119] Daniel Ellsberg,[120][121] Mary Kostakidis,[122] John Pilger,[123][124] Ai Weiwei,[125] Michael Moore,[126] Noam Chomsky,[125] Vaughan Smith,[127][128] and Oliver Stone.[129]

His crime was standing up to the most powerful people on earth and exposing that their actions have no relations to their statements.

 

[Raoul]

The US doesn't even extradite members of the security community if it's a clear cut case like killing a teenager by driving on the wrong side of the road. Assange did a service to the 7.7billion people in this world who aren't American, and arguably to the 330 million US citizens who now at least have the opportunity to educate themselves on the activities of a opaque government claiming to act in their interest.

From Wikipedia:



His crime was standing up to the most powerful people on earth and exposing that their actions have no relations to their statements.

That bit wasn't the crime. The actual crime is cyber hacking. Its true that he wouldn't be extradited for something minor, which of course this was anything but.

Those defending him need to perhaps realize that the person they are defending as the vaunted, swashbuckling Robin Hood of the information age, actually broke laws and is now being held to account for his actions.

 

[syrian_scholes]

He broke bail and is now fighting extradition. He ran away to the Ecuadorian embassy the last time he was bailed so they will not bail him again while the extradition procedures are in progress because he is the definition of a flight risk.

He has made his own bed legally speaking.

What did he actually illegally do?

 

[syrian_scholes]

That bit wasn't the crime. The actual crime is cyber hacking. Its true that he wouldn't be extradited for something minor, which of course this was anything but.

Those defending him need to perhaps realize that the person they are defending as the vaunted, swashbuckling Robin Hood of the information age, actually broke laws and is now being held to account for his actions.

I'm in no way an Assange fan, but why is he being "held accountable to his actions" while the people he exposed aren't?

 

[Bastian]

He did both - which is doubly bad for him. If he was not guilty of anything there is a high likelihood he will be released.

I'm sorry mate, but that has to be the most naive take on things possible. You realise the Espionage Act from 1917 has been completely abused by Obama and subsequently Trump now, going after people providing information to the public that has 100% relevance to public discourse. The charges of computer fraud (hacking) were just the tip (and will ultimately be unproven as it allegedly was an unsuccessful attempt to help maintain Manning's anonymity). But being charged with the Espionage Act rules out a public defense, you cannot bring context into things. Which, quite frankly, is fascist. It was tried against Ellsberg, but public outcry and somewhat united media pressure (back then, with a bit more backbone) helped prevent that. Obama however, who ran on having the most open and transparent government ever, opened a war on whistleblowers.

People don't have to like Assange to acknowledge that the information he's been responsible for getting into the public domain in the last 10-12 years has shown up conventional media outlets that toe the line. There would be no need for Wikileaks if there were actually real journalists pay-rolled by real news outlets holding power to account. But that's not the case.

Any deeper look into the whole thing will show that Assange is being politically persecuted and not treated in the spirit of the law.

 

[Raoul]

I'm sorry mate, but that has to be the most naive take on things possible. You realise the Espionage Act from 1917 has been completely abused by Obama and subsequently Trump now, going after people providing information to the public that has 100% relevance to public discourse. The charges of computer fraud (hacking) were just the tip (and will ultimately be unproven as it allegedly was an unsuccessful attempt to help maintain Manning's anonymity). But being charged with the Espionage Act rules out a public defense, you cannot bring context into things. Which, quite frankly, is fascist. It was tried against Ellsberg, but public outcry and somewhat united media pressure (back then, with a bit more backbone) helped prevent that. Obama however, who ran on having the most open and transparent government ever, opened a war on whistleblowers.

People don't have to like Assange to acknowledge that the information he's been responsible for getting into the public domain in the last 10-12 years has shown up conventional media outlets that toe the line. There would be no need for Wikileaks if there were actually real journalists pay-rolled by real news outlets holding power to account. But that's not the case.

Any deeper look into the whole thing will show that Assange is being politically persecuted and not treated in the spirit of the law.

There's no doubt that this is a political act, just as Assange's original act was a political one, as were his collaborations with the GRU. All that is required for him to be prosecuted is for them to identify a number of laws he broke, which they have done.

 

[Bastian]

There's no doubt that this is a political act, just as Assange's original act was a political one, as were his collaborations with the GRU. All that is required for him to be prosecuted is for them to identify a number of laws he broke, which they have done.

His original act - are you referring to the release of the Clinton emails or the decade long work of Wikileaks prior to the US Presidential Elections?

There will have to be proof of any collaboration with GRU, and even if that were proven (it won't), he's a citizen of Australia, not the US, and has no business being trafficked to the US.

For the record, I don't think he collaborated with the Russian state, but the hypocrisy here (media at large I mean) is mind-blowing. The US goes all over the world interfering with elections and domestic policies of nation states, assassinating popular leaders (at least attempting to) and then goes apeshit when it appears another state has interfered with the US process. Mind you, Israel has continually interfered with US politics. Shouldn't that be put under the same critical evaluation and possible criminal proceedings?

 

[Raoul]

His original act - are you referring to the release of the Clinton emails or the decade long work of Wikileaks prior to the US Presidential Elections?

There will have to be proof of any collaboration with GRU, and even if that were proven (it won't), he's a citizen of Australia, not the US, and has no business being trafficked to the US.

For the record, I don't think he collaborated with the Russian state, but the hypocrisy here (media at large I mean) is mind-blowing. The US goes all over the world interfering with elections and domestic policies of nation states, assassinating popular leaders (at least attempting to) and then goes apeshit when it appears another state has interfered with the US process. Mind you, Israel has continually interfered with US politics. Shouldn't that be put under the same critical evaluation and possible criminal proceedings?

He has about 18 different charges to contend with and Australia and the US (as well as the UK) have extradition treaties with one another, so this should be a pretty simple case.

 

[Bastian]

He has about 18 different charges to contend with and Australia and the US (as well as the UK) have extradition treaties with one another, so this should be a pretty simple case.

If I remember correctly, 17 of which are violations of the Espionage Act, and then the frivolous computer fraud charge. It's a sham, in the realm of a wider sham - i.e. war criminals carrying on as normal while the plebs argue over details.

 

[Raoul]

If I remember correctly, 17 of which are violations of the Espionage Act, and then the frivolous computer fraud charge. It's a sham, in the realm of a wider sham - i.e. war criminals carrying on as normal while the plebs argue over details.

Here is the charging document

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1165556/download

 

[George Owen]

@Bastian Assange is gonna be used as example to anyone who tries to bringing truth to the people. Simple as that.

Everybody knows he was never working with the russians. He just released what he got on his hands. The media is completely corrupted and can transmit any message they want.

Some people think that because he didn't get anything on the republicans or Trump, he should have kept quiet to keep the balance. Hypocrisy.

This is nothing but a status quo (republican and democrat) maneuver to bury the truth and anyone daring to expose it, with it.

 

[Bastian]

Here is the charging document

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1165556/download

Yeah, prevents the use of a public defense (what Snowden has continually harped on about, being ready to face justice if he can actually be allowed to defend himself).

 

[Bastian]

@Bastian Assange is gonna be used as example to anyone who tries to bringing truth to the people. Simple as that.

Everybody knows he was never working with the russians. He just released what he got on his hands. The media is completely corrupted and can transmit any message they want.

Some people think that because he didn't get anything on the republicans or Trump, he should have kept quiet to keep the balance. Hypocrisy.

This is nothing but a status quo (republican and democrat) maneuver to bury the truth and anyone daring to expose it, with it.

100%

 

[freeurmind]

Threads like these show that we are truly doomed. the intelligence agencies will set their narrative and people will swallow it whole. Also it just shows that the notion the Caf is made up of mostly lefties is pure fantasy.

 

[Abizzz]

Here is the charging document

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1165556/download

Read the first 5 pages and the first 3 counts.

The 3 counts are literally just repetitions. Point 3 on pages 2 and 3 fails hilariously at stating what the "Chaos Computer Club" actually is. I'm not prepared to waste more time on that so if there's a smoking gun charge please point me to it.

This is a system that allowed OJ to walk, so Assange could be set free. It’s all moot though since he is at this stage probably sitting on a variety of crimes.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. They let a guilty man go free so a innocent one has a chance? Are you really going to use OJ as a defence of the US justice system?

I'd actually have more faith in it if he were to face a jury of his "peers", however we both know that isn't going to happen.

 

[Striker10]

Threads like these show that we are truly doomed. the intelligence agencies will set their narrative and people will swallow it whole. Also it just shows that the notion the Caf is made up of mostly lefties is pure fantasy.

It's certainly important to question and not just conform. If humanity was all for one and one for all, it would be reflected in society.With these stories the key is [it's about controlling the narrative]....because the narrative is ultimately brainwashing anyway. Which is why you get 24 hr news that is mostly rinse and repeat. A world of people questioning is FAR healthier..then one that is gullible and still believes in santa.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

What did he actually illegally do?

He broke bail went on the run and hid in the Ecuadorian embassy. It really isn't that hard to understand. From the UK perspective he is fighting extradition to the US on numerous charges. Our judges will look at those charges and his case and decide whether to extradite him or not. If he had followed the law this would have happened while he was out on bail and he wouldn't have been in prison here while it happened.

I don't know whether he is guilty of espionage or whether he is a hacker or a Russian proxy.

I do know that US wants him and if they make the correct legal case in the UK and the UK authorities decide to extradite him then so be it.

Yes, I bet the US want to make an example of him, the same with Snowden but he ran away to Russia and isn't our problem, Assange came to the UK and we have spent 16 million pounds on this as a result.

In the end states have secrets, they always will have and that means they will always need to be protected. How we do this in a democracy is always contentious as is what our govt should know about us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50587098

 

[freeurmind]

It's certainly important to question and not just conform. If humanity was all for one and one for all, it would be reflected in society.With these stories the key is [it's about controlling the narrative]....because the narrative is ultimately brainwashing anyway. Which is why you get 24 hr news that is mostly rinse and repeat. A world of people questioning is FAR healthier..then one that is gullible and still believes in santa.

Absolutely. Otherwise what's to stop people in power from engaging in criminal behaviour and then using that same power to avoid justice? It's sad how complicit many news organizations are in suppressing information that would be in the public's interest to know and smearing those that do publish such information.

 

[nimic]

It's certainly important to question and not just conform. If humanity was all for one and one for all, it would be reflected in society.With these stories the key is [it's about controlling the narrative]....because the narrative is ultimately brainwashing anyway. Which is why you get 24 hr news that is mostly rinse and repeat. A world of people questioning is FAR healthier..then one that is gullible and still believes in santa.

Interesting call for a more knowledgeable public, coming from someone who believes global warming is a hoax, and also believes it is a UN conspiracy (which also has to do with a UN plot to promote multiculturalism to destroy cultures - or was the the EU?)

You really are in no position to preach about gullibility or critical thinking.

 

[freeurmind]

Interesting exchange calling for a more knowledgeable public, coming from two people who believe global warming is a hoax, and at least Striker10 believes it is a UN conspiracy (which also has to do with a UN plot to promote multiculturalism to destroy cultures - or was the the EU?)

You two really are in no position to preach about gullibility or critical thinking.

You must have me mistaken for someone else or you took something I said sarcastically as serious.

 

[nimic]

You must have me mistaken for someone else or you took something I said sarcastically as serious.

Oh, I apologize. I'll remove the reference to you.

My bad.

 

[syrian_scholes]

He broke bail went on the run and hid in the Ecuadorian embassy. It really isn't that hard to understand. From the UK perspective he is fighting extradition to the US on numerous charges. Our judges will look at those charges and his case and decide whether to extradite him or not. If he had followed the law this would have happened while he was out on bail and he wouldn't have been in prison here while it happened.

I don't know whether he is guilty of espionage or whether he is a hacker or a Russian proxy.

I do know that US wants him and if they make the correct legal case in the UK and the UK authorities decide to extradite him then so be it.

Yes, I bet the US want to make an example of him, the same with Snowden but he ran away to Russia and isn't our problem, Assange came to the UK and we have spent 16 million pounds on this as a result.

In the end states have secrets, they always will have and that means they will always need to be protected. How we do this in a democracy is always contentious as is what our govt should know about us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50587098

Yeah war crimes are the best state secrets ever, the money spent chasing Asange could have been spent on fixing the state, no matter what excuse you want to give the government they don't deserve it and honestly I don't know why you are even doing it, you're talking like a trained government official.

 

[Bastian]

He broke bail went on the run and hid in the Ecuadorian embassy. It really isn't that hard to understand. From the UK perspective he is fighting extradition to the US on numerous charges. Our judges will look at those charges and his case and decide whether to extradite him or not. If he had followed the law this would have happened while he was out on bail and he wouldn't have been in prison here while it happened.

I don't know whether he is guilty of espionage or whether he is a hacker or a Russian proxy.

I do know that US wants him and if they make the correct legal case in the UK and the UK authorities decide to extradite him then so be it.

Yes, I bet the US want to make an example of him, the same with Snowden but he ran away to Russia and isn't our problem, Assange came to the UK and we have spent 16 million pounds on this as a result.

In the end states have secrets, they always will have and that means they will always need to be protected. How we do this in a democracy is always contentious as is what our govt should know about us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50587098

That implies a belief in those two legal systems being neutral and proportional despite the very recent history of whistleblowers (see Katharine Gun in the UK and everyone who has recently been charged under the Espionage Act in the US) not to forget, that the individual in question revealed both countries' war crimes.

How would you feel about Russia or China going after a whistleblower residing in the US or UK who had exposed on the most wide scale in history the systematic legal and human rights abuses by Russia or China? Would you be this blasé about it? Would it just be described as a normal process?

 

[Raoul]

That implies a belief in those two legal systems being neutral and proportional despite the very recent history of whistleblowers (see Katharine Gun in the UK and everyone who has recently been charged under the Espionage Act in the US) not to forget, that the individual in question revealed both countries' war crimes.

How would you feel about Russia or China going after a whistleblower residing in the US or UK who had exposed on the most wide scale in history the systematic legal and human rights abuses by Russia or China? Would you be this blasé about it? Would it just be described as a normal process?

That's why states sign extradition treaties with one another well before these things happen.

 

[Bastian]

That's why states sign extradition treaties with one another well before these things happen.

Not to help each other convict whistleblowers. You can sign a treaty - also, note that Assange is an Australian national - and be principally, morally and effectively against the use of said treaty in a specific case. You are either complicit in the US' use of political force here or against. It's not "law is the law" type of positivism.

edit: also Gary McKinnon

 

[Raoul]

Not to help each other convict whistleblowers. You can sign a treaty - also, note that Assange is an Australian national - and be principally, morally and effectively against the use of said treaty in a specific case. You are either complicit in the US' use of political force here or against. It's not "law is the law" type of positivism.

edit: also Gary McKinnon

That's entirely up to said countries. Australia, the US, and the UK (along with Canada and NZ) have intelligence sharing agreements in place so it would make sense for them to take a sympathetic view to prosecuting anyone seeking to subvert the intelligence system of one of the said countries by publishing sensitive documents (not necessarily the one off controversial ones, but literally everything). Assange will probably go to the US, get tried and convicted and spend the rest of his life in jail.

 

[Abizzz]

That's entirely up to said countries. Australia, the US, and the UK (along with Canada and NZ) have intelligence sharing agreements in place so it would make sense for them to take a sympathetic view to prosecuting anyone seeking to subvert the intelligence system of one of the said countries by publishing sensitive documents (not necessarily the one off controversial ones, but literally everything). Assange will probably go to the US, get tried and convicted and spend the rest of his life in jail.

And to the rest of the world it will say more about the US than about Assange.

 

[Bastian]

That's entirely up to said countries. Australia, the US, and the UK (along with Canada and NZ) have intelligence sharing agreements in place so it would make sense for them to take a sympathetic view to prosecuting anyone seeking to subvert the intelligence system of one of the said countries by publishing sensitive documents (not necessarily the one off controversial ones, but literally everything). Assange will probably go to the US, get tried and convicted and spend the rest of his life in jail.

Yes, that definitely can happen. And I see absolutely everything wrong with that.

 

[Raoul]

And to the rest of the world it will say more about the US than about Assange.

I seriously doubt the world cares about Assange, especially after he opted to become a gopher for the GRU.

 

[Abizzz]

I seriously doubt the world cares about Assange, especially after he opted to become a gopher for the GRU.

Ofcourse the people who have been informed about Americas world-wide surveillance system, and are worried about it, care.

 

[Raoul]

Ofcourse the people who have been informed about Americas world-wide surveillance system, and are worried about it, care. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Fortunately that's not how it works. States keep secrets to gain competitive advantage over one another. If a rogue actor like Assange hacks and publishes that information (or in any way aids in the hacking) to advance his own political interests, then he will have to face the consequences from said states. The bigger and more powerful the state, the less chance one has of getting away with it, which is precisely what is happening to Assange now.

 

[Abizzz]

Fortunately that's not how it works. States keep secrets to gain competitive advantage over one another. If a rogue actor like Assange hacks and publishes that information (or in any way aids in the hacking) to advance his own political interests, then he will have to face the consequences from said states. The bigger and more powerful the state, the less chance one has of getting away with it, which is precisely what is happening to Assange now.

No it's just America doing this and if anyone else did it to America they'd have drones, B52's and cruise missiles over their heads within hours. "States do this" is as good a excuse as saying you can't expect a murderer not to murder. It's what makes them murderers, isn't it?

 

[Raoul]

No it's just America doing this and if anyone else did it to America they'd have drones, B52's and cruise missiles over their heads within hours. "States do this" is as good a excuse as saying you can't expect a murderer not to murder. It's what makes them murderers, isn't it?

That's the nature of the state system. The powerful ones get to do generally do as they please because the international system isn't a world government.

BTW...the Russians (for example) routinely go after their own abroad if they deem them to be in any way working with the opposition. The Skripal case being a good example.

 

[Abizzz]

That's the nature of the state system. The powerful ones get to do generally do as they please because the international system isn't a world government.

Then spare me the "he broke the law he got what's coming". The US have always built their international relations on being better than that. It used to be their entire reason to exist (not being like the states it's citizens came from). We are currently witnessing America being replaced as the most powerful nation so I'm not sure it's the best precedent to set either.

BTW...the Russians (for example) routinely go after their own abroad if they deem them to be in any way working with the opposition. The Skripal case being a good example.

And I will condemn them for it and distrust anyone connected to the Russian government because of it. Which doesn't change anything about the US or their actions.

 

[Raoul]

Then spare me the "he broke the law he got what's coming". The US have always built their international relations on being better than that. It used to be their entire reason to exist (not being like the states it's citizens came from). We are currently witnessing America being replaced as the most powerful nation so I'm not sure it's the best precedent to set either.

That's more so a perceptual illusion than reality. The US at the end of the day is the world's most powerful state and is going to behave as such. Assange should've considered proper journalism if he wanted to expose things he didn't like about the world instead of taking actions he knew would ultimately land him in prison, or worse.

 

[Abizzz]

That's more so a perceptual illusion than reality. The US at the end of the day is the world's most powerful state and is going to behave as such. Assange should've considered proper journalism if he wanted to expose things he didn't like about the world instead of taking actions he knew would ultimately land him in prison, or worse.

You mean like Anderson Cooper? Paul Krugman? Bill O'Reilly?

He knew he was sacrificing his life to do this (same with Snowden). I have no words for those now blaming him for fighting for his life the best he can. Did people that got lynched for opposing Jim Crow laws get what they deserve because the KKK was a lot stronger in their area?