"Just how bad a decision was it?"

horselesspaul

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As we should all realise, the tv does lie sometimes (though not necessarily in this case). Many times an angle will show something which is not seen from another perspective. Foreshortening is a big visual problem with tv replays and has played havoc with umpires' decisions in cricket. To state almost anything based on tv replays is a perilous form of judgement.
All I can say is that after three and a half hundred posts that it is not surprising to me that Webb took the decision he did, it was a penalty in his view at the time, right or wrong. He did not have the luxury/distraction of endless replays, whinging scouse pundits and footballier than thou internet arguments. That's football, fortunately for United on the day.
 

Adebesi

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It was a wrong decision but not a terrible one as we are all still debating it two days later after seeing umpteen angles and replays.
To be honest I only think this is being debated because this is a Manchester United site and people around here - like fans in general - are hardly a very objective bunch.

If we were all commenting on this as neutral observers I sincerely believe there would be no debate on this because everyone would see it was the wrong decision.
 

Carl

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I've just watched that incident again, and there is no way it is as bad a decision as is being made out. For me, it is a 50-50. Carrick gets a touch on the ball which takes it away from Gomes and the keeper then clatters Carrick before touching the ball. Had it been the other way round (ie getting the ball, then taking the man) then it's not a penalty.

Total overreaction.
The Keeper clearly touches the ball before taking out Carrick. It's blatantly clear in fact.

But i do agree to an extent, whilst i think it was never a penalty therefor making it a bad decision i can fully understand why Webb gave it. He was a bit of a distance back from play because Rooney had just played the ball through for Carrick (and what a ball too :drool:) and from where he was i'm fairly sure all he would have seen was Carrick's touch, it probably just looked like Gomez's touch was part of the same touch that had come from Carrick.
 

CassiusClaymore

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Side tracking slightly...a load of people came in to the pub from the race course during the 2nd half and one of em decided to watch the game (on the tv) through his binoculaurs. He was about 5m from the tv :lol:

My mate got up and said "you should've gone to spec savers"

A few people here need to go to spec savers imo.
 

Carl

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To be honest I only think this is being debated because this is a Manchester United site and people around here - like fans in general - are hardly a very objective bunch.

If we were all commenting on this as neutral observers I sincerely believe there would be no debate on this because everyone would see it was the wrong decision.
Exactly.
 

sincher

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Yeah, there's a difference between it being a wrong decision and a really bad decision, though.

It was a wrong decision, but it wasn't a really bad decision as it was fecking hard to tell whether or not Gomes got the ball. All the crap about biased referees is hard to take.
 

Москва2008

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It was wrong in my opinion.

Like the Carling Cup final (when Spurs got away with it and Ronaldo was booked) it happened in a split second. and the ref got it wrong.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Yeah, there's a difference between it being a wrong decision and a really bad decision, though.

It was a wrong decision, but it wasn't a really bad decision as it was fecking hard to tell whether or not Gomes got the ball. All the crap about biased referees is hard to take.
Absolutely.

An incorrect decision but not a bad one. It looked like a penalty at first glance and Webb got caught miles behind the play (through no fault of his own) so it's fairly obvious why he gave it.
 

sincher

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If he saw the Palacios tackle and failed to even book him, then that's a really bad decision.
 

Adebesi

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Yeah, there's a difference between it being a wrong decision and a really bad decision, though.

It was a wrong decision, but it wasn't a really bad decision as it was fecking hard to tell whether or not Gomes got the ball. All the crap about biased referees is hard to take.
OK I can see that.

To me it was an awful decision, I stand by that. To me it seems really quite obvious that Gomes touched the ball from the direction and distance it went. Or lets put it this way: if he hadnt touched the ball and Carrick had played the ball over that way you'd have to say he has the touch of a rapist.

But for some people it might not be that bad a decision and that is fair enough. I certainly dont think it was a matter of bias refs, it was just a very fortuitous bad decision for us. Liverpool got a couple of them in their game that day too. Its just part of football.
 

Carl

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OK I can see that.

To me it was an awful decision, I stand by that. To me it seems really quite obvious that Gomes touched the ball from the direction and distance it went. Or lets put it this way: if he hadnt touched the ball and Carrick had played the ball over that way you'd have to say he has the touch of a rapist.

But for some people it might not be that bad a decision and that is fair enough. I certainly dont think it was a matter of bias refs, it was just a very fortuitous bad decision for us. Liverpool got a couple of them in their game that day too. Its just part of football.
:lol::lol::lol:
 

Pogue Mahone

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OK I can see that.

To me it was an awful decision, I stand by that. To me it seems really quite obvious that Gomes touched the ball from the direction and distance it went. Or lets put it this way: if he hadnt touched the ball and Carrick had played the ball over that way you'd have to say he has the touch of a rapist.

But for some people it might not be that bad a decision and that is fair enough. I certainly dont think it was a matter of bias refs, it was just a very fortuitous bad decision for us. Liverpool got a couple of them in their game that day too. Its just part of football.
When a player knows he's gonna get clattered by a keeper they will often just get any kind of a touch on it, secure in the knowledge that they're about to be awarded a penalty. They're not really that fussed about their next touch, their only thought is to get something on the ball and knock it past the keeper before they're taken out. This is probably not entirely within the spirit of the game but I'm sure Webb would have been aware that this happens and that it's not against the laws of the game.

I think Carrick's touch was a bit heavy and it's debatable whether or not it would have ended up in a favourable position for him to score from; even if Gomez didn't get a touch (which he did) but I can see why Webb assumed that Carrick was the only player to make contact.
 

horselesspaul

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When a player knows he's gonna get clattered by a keeper they will often just get any kind of a touch on it, secure in the knowledge that they're about to be awarded a penalty. They're not really that fussed about their next touch, their only thought is to get something on the ball and knock it past the keeper before they're taken out. This is probably not entirely within the spirit of the game but I'm sure Webb would have been aware that this happens and that it's not against the laws of the game.

I think Carrick's touch was a bit heavy and it's debatable whether or not it would have ended up in a favourable position for him to score from; even if Gomez didn't get a touch (which he did) but I can see why Webb assumed that Carrick was the only player to make contact.
Winner.
 

Rooney1987

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The BBC won't shut feck up about this penalty 5live seem to talk about it every second. The sad thing is they barely even mention the penalty we should have got against Everton.
 

Adebesi

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Personally I have no problem with the fact that most of the media and most neutrals seem to want to see us lose / Liverpool win the league. That is their prerogative, and is simply a product of how successful we have been. While everyone is against us we know we are the team to beat. Long may it continue.
 

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Yeah, there's a difference between it being a wrong decision and a really bad decision, though.

It was a wrong decision, but it wasn't a really bad decision as it was fecking hard to tell whether or not Gomes got the ball. All the crap about biased referees is hard to take.
Exactly. Most refs would have made the same call. It was nearly impossible to see the Gomes touch unless you had the chance to look at the replay. It was a wrong decision but certainly not a terrible one.
 

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i don't get that storm at all. if it had been a clear dive...but it wasn't it was a very difficult decision to make. HW had to make one. refs are entitled to make mistakes. no matter which side of argument you support you have to admit that this situation was debatable and as far as i'm concern this ends that discussion . It might have been given, it might not have bee given. Either way it had gone it would have been bad /good decision.

IMO - it was a penalty.
 

mu77

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turning point maybe but spurs gave up 4 in 10 mins of open play (taking out the goal celebrations - they must have taken at least 2 mins) no excuse for a prem side to fold tent like that. twitchy have gotten enough calls his way in the past.
 

horselesspaul

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Jenas in the press today about Howard Webb:

"One thing which struck me about it was that he didn't even think. It was like he'd already made his mind up when he came out for the second half that he was going to give something".

I hope he is reprimanded for that, but he won't be. Respect? My arse.
At least they're looking into it. I still doubt they'll do anything though, it's not like he's Evra.
 

olesmyhero

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Yeah, there's a difference between it being a wrong decision and a really bad decision, though.

It was a wrong decision, but it wasn't a really bad decision as it was fecking hard to tell whether or not Gomes got the ball. All the crap about biased referees is hard to take.
Yes indeed. I completely agree. All this talk of it being one of the worst call sin the history of the game is ludicrous.
 

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When a player knows he's gonna get clattered by a keeper they will often just get any kind of a touch on it, secure in the knowledge that they're about to be awarded a penalty. They're not really that fussed about their next touch, their only thought is to get something on the ball and knock it past the keeper before they're taken out. This is probably not entirely within the spirit of the game but I'm sure Webb would have been aware that this happens and that it's not against the laws of the game.

I think Carrick's touch was a bit heavy and it's debatable whether or not it would have ended up in a favourable position for him to score from; even if Gomez didn't get a touch (which he did) but I can see why Webb assumed that Carrick was the only player to make contact.
Spot on, and that is why Gomes was given a yellow instead of a red card as well.
 

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It was a penalty, keeper got his hands to it....Webb fecked up but that does not account for Spurs leaving Rooney wide open three times on the right side and letting him score twice and also assisting on a third. Spurs are Premieriship club...they are big boys...they know how to defend.....no reason they should of let four more goals go in.....I dont care if the peno was a right or wrong call, they still have to finish out the match, they were still winning...they gave up after we scored our first....in my book after that they didnt deserve to win. If they want to be champions someday they will have to learn to deal with these types of matches.
 

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people keep saying Gomez "won the ball". Did he feck. He got the merest touch on it whilst making sure he got plenty of Carrick

penalty.

...and Ferg did not "imply" anything other than to say "you win some you lose some - shut the feckin moaning Redkrapp"
 

RedPhil1957

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Personally I have no problem with the fact that most of the media and most neutrals seem to want to see us lose / Liverpool win the league. That is their prerogative, and is simply a product of how successful we have been. While everyone is against us we know we are the team to beat. Long may it continue.



There is a difference between having a preference and being damn right bias and bloody ignorant to boot ------- liverpool forums coming out with delude crap is understandable but the media is at least suppose to provide some sort of balance. In fact so bad has it been that even some in the media itself are talking about it.

As for the penalty - non penalty all I can say i heard it being discussed with 3 ex-pro's

one said no penalty,
two said they would have given a penalty - the two who said penalty both agreed that most of the movement of the ball away from goal came from Carrick's touch not gomes and any touch from Gomes was incidental to his main intention of taking out Carrick
 

Sir A1ex

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Don't actually agree with his interpretation of the laws and why he thinks it was a penalty (though I'm finding it fascinating that such a semingly basic point of law has suddenly been exposed as one which is not clearly defined in the rules, and open to interpretation and debate!).

However, it's a shame that bitter scousers can't get their heads round the main point... refs make mistakes, deal with it!
 

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There is a difference between having a preference and being damn right bias and bloody ignorant to boot
That is just the difference between quality journalism and sensationalism. It is just a question of what paper you want to read. The more hysterical elements of the press make no particular claim to objective reporting - certainly none that anyone takes seriously. It is just a reflection of how most people outside the club feel about us after 20 years of winning everything in sight. Small price to pay in my book.
 

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It was an absolutely correct decision. Gomes mangled Carrick. Whether he got a finger on the ball or not before the tackle is irrelevant. If he had a clear save, the premises would have been different.

Compare it to an out field player who in “scenario 1” gets the ball clearly, tackling the opponent directly after with “scenario 2” where he barely touches the ball and then throws himself over the opponent because of the momentum of his pace….

thats the way i see it....
 

Pogue Mahone

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Never liked him as a ref but I like his comments here, in response to an e-mail from a bitter scouser:

From: David

Hi Jeff

How can one corrupt referee be allowed to change the course of the Premiership and will Howard Webb get a medal as part of Man Utd's title winning team?

************************

Comments such as these are now common place. Indeed, this article will encourage more to spout their bile as they look for reasons why their own side did not win.

When a referee makes an honest decision and someone does not like it, then the answer is obvious; he is corrupt, bent, useless etc.

Grow up!! You sound as pathetic as a spoilt kid who has not got his way!!

Howard Webb has cost Liverpool the title, has he? To be honest, I don’t remember him playing up front for Liverpool in the home games when they failed to beat vastly inferior opposition. I also don't recall him starring in the defence that let Arsenal run riot last Tuesday night.

No, the ref has been and always will be the easy target.

Before everyone rants on and lists the 101 decisions that have gone against their side this season, think on and recall the ones that have gone your way as well.

Perhaps they do not even themselves out perfectly but then list the number of cock-ups that your side has made in defence and the number of goal chances that have been missed.

Are all the players who make these mistakes corrupt, or are they just useless?

Many state that there is too much money at stake and that video technology is the answer to everything. Well, if players did not cheat and dive at any given opportunity and if referees were perfect, then perhaps we would not need to bring that subject up after every decision.

It ain’t going happen because the authorities have said it won’t.

The clubs could not afford it anyway and it would kill the flow of the game. Most importantly, however, is that it would cost too many ex-players their lucrative jobs as 'experts'!!

The latest to emerge is Craig Burley, a poor man's Andy Gray, who spouted his bile whilst doing co-commentary with Jon Champion at the Manchester United v Spurs game.

It was "the penalty incident that changed the game" he said. Do me a favour, Manchester United were running them ragged and it was only a matter of time before Spurs capitulated and United ran away with it!!

According to Burley though, it was not a difficult decision - anyone could see it!!

Well, excuse me, but when you have watched an incident on numerous occasions from the benefit of an elevated position, and when you have slowed it down, then perhaps things might appear clearer. Ah ha, video technology - that would have sorted it!!

But was it a penalty or not? In my opinion - which is not borne out of bias for any club involved in the title race (actually I would have liked to see Liverpool win it!) - is that it was a penalty.

Howard Webb would see the keeper - the erratic Gomes by the way - throw himself at the feet of Carrick and then up-end him. Does anyone disagree that the keeper actually brought him down? Carrick did not dive, he was clattered.

Yet thanks to slow motion video technology, we can now see that the keeper actually got a touch on the ball which makes it alright. Or does it?

I thought that we had been educated by the Law makers - a point that Burley and Co. constantly forget - that if you take the ball and the man, it is reckless and therefore a foul.

It most certainly is when an outfield player does it and it is definitely the case if the incident occurs outside the penalty area.

So are there different rules for keepers and when offences occur inside the box? Don’t answer that one.

Whatever it was, the decision does not make the referee corrupt or a United supporter, although that is the easy option for the idiots who neither know nor care about the game, just the result.

Howard Webb is an excellent referee who, whilst not being perfect, has gained universal respect for how he controls games.

He has made and will make mistakes - all refs do (even Collina) - but he gets the majority of high profile games, both domestically and abroad, because of his ability.

Of the ten games between the "Big/Top Four" this season, he has taken charge of six of them, plus a whole host of other big derby games. This week he is officiating a UEFA Cup semi-final as well.

I know that he wanted to go on TV after Saturday’s game to put his point of view across but the authorities would not allow him to do so. This in itself tells a story.

Don’t get me wrong, if you have read my articles this season you will know that I feel very strongly that all is not well in the refereeing world. This is largely due to weak leadership and the lack of support from the authorities.

There are also some refs who, in my opinion, are not good enough to be doing the big games but as in all other aspects of life, their faces fit.

Some do seem to bottle it when it comes to making a decision against one of the big boys - more about Arsenal v Boro in my column for the Evening Gazette on Friday!!

However, Howard Webb most certainly does not fit into that category. He is an excellent official (in fact he is our best). He is an honest man who has worked very hard to get to where he is.

Perhaps the dickheads who describe people who do a job that they would never have the balls or ability to do themselves should think of that before throwing infantile comments around.

There you are, I am sure that my words will have changed many minds!! Or am I just pissing against the wind?
 

ralphie88

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When a player knows he's gonna get clattered by a keeper they will often just get any kind of a touch on it, secure in the knowledge that they're about to be awarded a penalty. They're not really that fussed about their next touch, their only thought is to get something on the ball and knock it past the keeper before they're taken out. This is probably not entirely within the spirit of the game but I'm sure Webb would have been aware that this happens and that it's not against the laws of the game.

I think Carrick's touch was a bit heavy and it's debatable whether or not it would have ended up in a favourable position for him to score from; even if Gomez didn't get a touch (which he did) but I can see why Webb assumed that Carrick was the only player to make contact.
Good post, and of course if the ref thinks that the touch out wide was Carrick's, there's no way he can also give a red card.
 

P.Head

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The Keeper clearly touches the ball before taking out Carrick. It's blatantly clear in fact.

But i do agree to an extent, whilst i think it was never a penalty therefor making it a bad decision i can fully understand why Webb gave it. He was a bit of a distance back from play because Rooney had just played the ball through for Carrick (and what a ball too :drool:) and from where he was i'm fairly sure all he would have seen was Carrick's touch, it probably just looked like Gomez's touch was part of the same touch that had come from Carrick.
Carrick touched the ball FIRST away from Gomes before being brought down. FACHT!
 

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That is just the difference between quality journalism and sensationalism. It is just a question of what paper you want to read. The more hysterical elements of the press make no particular claim to objective reporting - certainly none that anyone takes seriously. It is just a reflection of how most people outside the club feel about us after 20 years of winning everything in sight. Small price to pay in my book.

To be fair there was some terrible reporting from the so called quality newspapers ----- but on this occasion it has been left to radio and tv. to go completely over the top.

In my opinion it has gone way past jealousy ---- when the sort of nasty bigoted crap being spouted on forums like RAWK, a forum that even most liverpool fans, that I know, think is full of morons, is being presented in a more acceptable way by so called respected radio hosts and tv pundits its going way to far.

As I have already posted even some journalists could not believe some of the reporting last weekend (hysterical was how one called it and he writes in the f'ing Star for gods sake)

This crap is having an effect on the pitch - just look at the bookings for example.

We have probably got the least 'tough players' in out team now than any time in the last 20+ years and yet from normally near top we drop to near bottom of play fair league.

Yet in Europe with different refs we back near the top and well ahead of all the teams left in --- I wonder why?
 

Carl

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Good read from Winter that but this line "if you take the ball and the man, it is reckless and therefore a foul." is bollocks.

Fair enough if you use excessive force but if your momentum takes you into the man causing him to fall over after winning the ball then it is not a foul.
 

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Good read from Winter that but this line "if you take the ball and the man, it is reckless and therefore a foul." is bollocks.

Fair enough if you use excessive force but if your momentum takes you into the man causing him to fall over after winning the ball then it is not a foul.
I'm inclined to think he's wrong too. I guess his point is that if you can win the ball without taking the man out then you should. If you lunge for the ball in a reckless manner, where you may or may not win the ball - but you will definitely flatten your opponent - then the intent is enough to award a free-kick.

Plech started a good thread a while back about how much contact is or isn't acceptable in any attempt to win the ball. It's a very grey area but it basically boils down to the fact that winning the ball does not automatically mean it's not a foul, in the same way that just because you make contact while winning the ball doesn't automatically mean it is a foul.

Clear as mud, eh?
 

Carl

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I'm inclined to think he's wrong too. I guess his point is that if you can win the ball without taking the man out then you should. If you lunge for the ball in a reckless manner, where you may or may not win the ball - but you will definitely flatten your opponent - then the intent is enough to award a free-kick.

Plech started a good thread a while back about how much contact is or isn't acceptable in any attempt to win the ball. It's a very grey area but it basically boils down to the fact that winning the ball does not automatically mean it's not a foul, in the same way that just because you make contact while winning the ball doesn't automatically mean it is a foul.

Clear as mud, eh?
Indeed.

It's all interpretation isn't it but what it mainly boils down to is common sense.

For Winter to say "if you take the ball and the man, it is reckless and therefore a foul." is clearly bollocks though and completely dodging the issue because it's all down to the force used, for example if Ben Thatcher would have got the ball when he knocked Mendes out a few years back then it's a foul, obviously, but if a well executed slide tackle wins the ball and then takes you through the man as well then it's not, and IMO, what happened on Saturday by Gomez was a well executed tackle.

It matters not though, because i genuinely believe that Webb simply did not see the touch from Gomez (which is pretty fecking understandable) so the whole issue about how much contact is allowed when winning the ball is pointless in this case.