i agree on that looks a bit more effortless then Sancho.
Kai Havertz
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I think Sancho is great too but everytime i watch him I'm underwhelmed tbh, reminds me of Sterling.
Howdo they compare versatility wise? Is Sancho abit more specialized RW and Havertz more jack of all trades?
For me
Sancho - not exactly like hazard but of a similiar style really good at linking up and creating assists and is a very good finisher not particularly a speed machine but gets by players with quick bursts and his decision making seems to be first class . Pretty much exactly what we need .
Havertz - kind of a cross between berba and a bit like pogba with the great touch & Great skills ,very creative can drift across a few positions .
Others may see them differently but that's how I see them ,I'm kind of torn which I would prefer . Both would add a huge amount . I think Sancho would fit us better
It shouldn't be an either or situation they play in completely different positions
Yeah but both would be in the region of 80 and 100 million so it is unfortunately going to be an either or Situation
Not overly, both are very versatile which is what we are after as part of a fluid attack with players inter changing positions.
I've been mulling it over and I have decided that both will suffice.
Wise man, excellent choices.
Make it so Ed.
Sancho is a winger and can play on both sides. He is already very good and has the potential to become one of the best. He is the type of player that most teams need. There is no fiddling around with lineups or having to adapt tactics. Havertz is a player for the center of the pitch. Its great that he is versatile and a very talented. Still I really struggle to see how he fits in. You can always argue that he is talented enough regardless, but its silly to spend 100m without knowing exactly what you do with a player. If its between Sancho and Havertz, it should be a no-brainer. Not because of talent, but because Sancho is exactly what United need.
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I believe Ole is still looking to find the right CF for his 4-2-3-1 attack. Since the restart, Havartz has 5 goals in 4 matches playing CF in a 4-2-3-1 or a 3-4-3 setup. Having that kind of physical ability, technical skills, maturity, and leadership at CF combining with the likes of Rashford, Bruno, Pogba, Greenwood, and Martial in Ole's attack is an exciting prospect for me. Maybe Ole thinks so as well.
if Chelsea manage to get Ziyech, Werner, Havertz and Chilwell, they'll be way ahead of us and here we are putting all our eggs in the Sancho basket.
Turns 21 today. Too old, do not want.
Id still think we have the better team if we get Sancho and keep Pogba
We need Sancho far more than we need Havertz. We've needed a RW player for a very long time and look like we're in with a shout of getting one of the brightest young talents in that position in Sancho.
I'd love Havertz but only if it was because Martial or Pogba were leaving, because I think he belongs in one of those central positions. We can't accommodate him otherwise, especially as Greenwood should be getting game time up front. Chelsea definitely need him more than we do.
I'd love Havertz but only if it was because Martial or Pogba were leaving, because I think he belongs in one of those central positions. We can't accommodate him otherwise, especially as Greenwood should be getting game time up front. Chelsea definitely need him more than we do.
But we’ll get a season out of him.
I think with those kind of talents, you should ignore what the squad needs right now. If you can get them, you have to sign them. These are very rare opportunities and a club can profit from utilizing them for a decade or longer.
By the way, I think you're selling Sancho a little bit short. The guy has 17 goals and 17 assists in the Bundesliga right now, he already is one of the best in the world on top of toying with defenders left, right and center once or twice a week. Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of 5 players who are clearly better than him right now. He's already at the level of Hazard/de Bruyne/Mane/Salah/Mbappe etc. if not better. Messi and Neymar are the only players who are comfortably ahead of him, I'd say. And Havertz, too, is already one of the best 8s/10s in the world. Don't get fooled by the clubs they are playing at.
Sancho is a much better fit for us currently. We have two world class playmakers in Bruno and Pogba already so getting someone who can finally sort our right wing, which has been so badly balanced for years, is vital.
Havertz is a very good player (isn’t quite worth the hype though IMO) but Sancho should be our “eggs in one basket” player if we’re gonna have one
Havertz is a very good player (isn’t quite worth the hype though IMO) but Sancho should be our “eggs in one basket” player if we’re gonna have one
Different positions & different players. We need that RW upgraded urgently.
How will they be well ahead of us? They don't know what formation they can all fit in? 3/4 of the players would need to settle into the league.
Chelsea already have such a large squad, how do they fit everyone in?
You sign those players and worry afterwards. From the top of my head, this would be possible:
Werner
H-O/Pulisic - Havertz - Ziyech
or
Havertz
Werner - Ziyech - H-O/Pulisic
Also, those are young players, if they stay patient they have multiple seasons to make it work and adjust their squad. I think it's wiser to not only think one season ahead but plan for at least 5 years in advance. Most successful teams have that in common - Real, Bayern, City, Liverpool, ...H-O/Pulisic - Havertz - Ziyech
or
Havertz
Werner - Ziyech - H-O/Pulisic
Yeah, just like we signed so many players in the last 6 years and then worried afterwards how they fit in. Worked out great for us
You generally have some true gems in your team (Martial, Rashford, Greenwood) but I think your issues were more related to coaching and the lack of a system than the players you signed. Also, I don't think that you signed that many great players, especially in midfield. Pogba aside (like him or not), you lack quality in that area. Hopefully Bruno can solve those issues.
However, I think Havertz and Werner are so good that a club should sign them if they have the chance. Those are players who are worth building your team around, even if it means a transitional season or two.
I don't think that is what Real, City or Liverpool do.
Liverpool signed Allison, Fabinho and VVD who all came into the first 11. So it was find weakness, identify player.
City - Rodri was bought to fill a particular role
Real - Hazard was there to replace Ronaldo.
Bayern - what do you call success for them? They win the bundesliga without playing well most of the season.
The successful teams like mentioned above sign big players for a specific reason, not worry about them later. That is what gets you into trouble. The teams you have shown above, looks like you have forgotten about Tammy, Mount, RLC?
I'm sorry, but I think you seem to miss a few things.
Real:
Hazard was the first "star transfer" of Real in a year - and the oldest big money signing since what, 10 years? Real also signed Vinicius and Rodrygo who play the same position. Apart from that, they bought Valverde, Ödegaard, Reinier, Hakimi, Jovic, Asensio, Militao and Ceballos. During their CL winning years, they didn't strengthen the squad but signed talent after talent in order to prepare for the next cycle. They didn't even replace Ronaldo when he left. It's obvious they decided their cycle was over and that they were better off planning for the next one (maybe even a tad too early).
City:
They signed Begiristain in 2012 and since then basically prepared everything for Guardiola. Invested hugely in infrastructure and basically made the club the most advanced in the world. Bought many young players like de Bruyne, Sterling, Sane, Bernardo Silva, etc. Yes, they only sign players they need right now but that's because they prepared the current success since at least 2012 when they basically decided to turn the club into an English Barca.
Liverpool:
It's similar to City. The club nowadays is very well run, has great infrastructure and visionary scouting and analytics. Just read the anecdotes of how they signed Klopp. Now they only sign players they need at the very moment, but they, too, have worked for that position. You don't win a coach in Klopp's position over if you can't make him interested in your project. He's probably one of the most long-term oriented managers out there. Already was when he signed for Dortmund.
Bayern:
They are pretty much the masters of the initial strategy I described. If they can get a German talent, they sign it. They don't care if they really need them. The Goretzka transfer is a great example. They signed him although the midfield was stacked with similar players. They also didn't need Götze whatsoever (Ribery and Robben on the wings, prime-Müller as a second striker, Lewandowski on the 9, Thiago, Kroos and Schweinsteiger behind them). I could give you probably a hundred stories like this. It's part of what made Bayern the most dominant club in Germany.
Oh, and they also developed a real identity back in 2008/2009 when van Gaal was there and subordinated everything to it. Their playing style hasn't changed since then with the exception of Kovac (still disappointed that he's not their coach any longer, the Bundesliga finally had a title race while he was there).
Actually you have completely taken this topic off course.
What you have described above is a club structure, when we are discussing individual transfers. This was never about how a club operates / infrastructure. It seems you are saying Manutd is a poorly run club.
We are talking about transfers of players aged 20-24 for values of £50-100m.
Real - all the players you have named are young players who knew that they are not going to be starters and are there to develop. That is like Manutd signing James or Liverpool signing Minamino.
City - You do realise Sterling, KDB, SIlva were all signed with designated roles. They didnt sign these players and think, we will decide later where we fit them?
Liverpool - there is some waffle about Klopp and how the club is run, but no mention of players or signings.
Bayern are the most dominant because there is no challenger... they have failed in signings such as Lucas Hernandez, Coutinho and even Goetze.
What has that to do with united? I just argued that if you can sign a player like Havertz or Sancho, you do. You'll definitely find a spot for such quality and it pays off to adjust your squad to it, even if it takes a season or two.
And your arguments maybe apply to Liverpool and to some extent to City, but not to Real. You compare the transfers I mentioned to James and Minamino but Real paid 60m for Vinicius, 50m for Rodrygo, 60m for Jovic. And Madrid even signed multiple players in that financial region for identical positions. Exemplarily Rodrygo and Vinicius (and Hazard, although he's not a talent anymore). Or Ödegaard, Asensio, Valverde and Ceballos.
Your arguments regarding Bayern I don't get. Yes, not every signing paid off but that wasn't the point. They did sign Götze after all, although they had absolutely zero space for him, haven't them? If you can get such a talent, you do, it's a no brainer. That's what I'm arguing.
edit: I actually want to see that from my own club, at a lower level. We just signed Palacios, a huge Argentinian midfield talent, although we have Aranguiz (just extended his contract arguably our most important player after Havertz), Demirbay (signed in the summer for a record fee), Amiri (signed in the summer) and Baumgartlinger. We also signed Paulinho for 20m (much money for us) although we had Brandt, Havertz, Bailey and Bellarabi in his position. Such players are to us what Havertz, Sancho and co. are for the top clubs. If you can get them, buy them.
Fair enough on the first point.
The Real one is a good one because as you can see since they signed those players, they cannot fit them and as you can see they have somewhat struggled to play most of them.
Sometimes a talent becomes available but if he doesnt suit the team, it is better to let them go. Lets take Sancho and Havertz for example - a team like United is in need for Sancho over Havertz so you would see the rational in signing Sancho.
But spending big money on players that won't walk into a fixed position is a big risk.
Of course, if you can only afford one it makes sense to go with the one that fits in immediately. I wasn't addressing United's current situation in particular but the general signing of players of that caliber. However, this situation occurs very, very rarely. It's the first time I can think of that two talents of such quality are going to change clubs at the same time and a club is in for both of them.
And I think it is a much bigger risk to not sign them if you can. Imagine you had the possibility of signing Havertz while Sancho chooses another club.United steps back from signing Havertz because you have Pogba in his position. A year later, Pogba leaves the club. Thing is, players like Havertz and Sancho can shape an era, even for top clubs. You just have to get them if you can because chances are, that there won't be enough players of such quality for every club out there. See the impact Messi and Cristiano had for their clubs. Imaginea scenario in which you could've signed 20 year old Messi for 70m but decided not to because you already got a world class player on the right wing.
I also don't agree with the Real Madrid part. On the majority of the squad, the jury is still out. Rodrygo, Vinicius, Ödegaard, Hakimi, Valverde and Reguilon are developing good to great, if I remember correctly. Madrid is quietly building one hell of a team. Rodrygo, Vinicius and Ödegaard continue their current development and Madrid can land Sancho, Havertz or Mbappe on top of that, this could become an all time great team. Absolutely unreal talent and at least in my life time, I haven't seen a club stacking so much potential in one team. That would be at least four players with Ballon D'Or potential - without the players they could by to accomodate that team. And Hazard, who probably still has another 4-5 years in him, isn't even considered.
Much as we all think Sancho is a top quality player, putting all bias aside i am struggling to honestly believe that you'd rather sign Sancho as oppose to the 4 listed (maybe swap Chilwell out
I'd rather put all my eggs in the Sancho basket thanks.
). Not just yourself, but any fan. All quality players, thoughfernandes cancels Ziyech out. That leaves Werner and potentially Havertz who would be welcome additions but not a necessity for us. Werner is a good attacker but I feel we have two players in Rashford and Martial with similar traits so it would possibly benefit us signing a forward with different attributes to the ones we currently have. We also still have Pogba so Havertz isn't as great of a need for us right now, eventhough i'd love for us to sign him.Much as we all think Sancho is a top quality player, putting all bias aside i am struggling to honestly believe that you'd rather sign Sancho as oppose to the 4 listed (maybe swap Chilwell out
Our RWF role has a huge hole in it imo. And for us signing Sancho out-weighs the 3 players you have signed or will potentially sign due to our needs. The machine has to be well oiled for it to function and if a key component is missing then the results will be unsatisfactory.
I doubt any Premier League manager has one or two transition seasons available as vote of confidence from owners and fans. If Lampard gets Havertz, Ziyech and Werner and finishes outside of top 4 as part of the transition, what do you reckon are the chances he keeps his job?
The 3 you mention are 2/3 academy graduates. Only Martial was bought.
Then about not buying great players. Were you of the same opinion when we bought Di Maria? Schweinsteiger? Schneiderlin? If we expand to non-midfielders, Falcao? Depay?
I do wonder if Havertz could develop into a CF. He's done well in that role with Volland out. If we were to sign him and he played games at CAM, CF and CM then he could cover all three positions or take over one through performances.
I'm intrigued by him playing CF though as he could drop off as a False 9 with Rashford and Bruno encouraged to run beyond and provide the goalscoring kind of how Firmino plays at Liverpool though they have the two wide forwards (Salah and Mane) pushing on. Sancho is an assist master so he could be providing from the right with Pogba playing through balls from deep.
Havertz
Rashford - Bruno - Sancho
Pogba McTominay
I'm intrigued by him playing CF though as he could drop off as a False 9 with Rashford and Bruno encouraged to run beyond and provide the goalscoring kind of how Firmino plays at Liverpool though they have the two wide forwards (Salah and Mane) pushing on. Sancho is an assist master so he could be providing from the right with Pogba playing through balls from deep.
Havertz
Rashford - Bruno - Sancho
Pogba McTominay
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Yes I was of the same opinion. I wouldn't have signed a single one of those players bar maybe Falcao and Depay, though. Those are not the levels of talent I meant.
And yes, Chelsea should have the ambition to finish top 4 with those players. I was talking about a case where you buy a top talent although you don't need it and it takes a season or two to adjust your squad to it. Exemplarily if Barca were to buy Sancho, they have Messi in his favourite position so it would take some adjusting. They'd need to find a spot for him, maybe by moving him to the left or by moving Messi back to the striker position or whatever.
Gotta laugh. We have no right wing. Years of people bemoaning "god it's about time we finally sort out the right wing pos" then coming out and saying "i'd rather have Havertz (another CM) over Sancho". Absolutely mental.
Our immediate requirement should be Sancho as we haven't a player of the required standard to play on the right-wing. But if we have any chance of buying Havertz we should go all in, he reminds me of Zidane. Both these players would move us up to the next level. With Rashford, Greenwood, Havertz and Sancho you would have some of the best young forwards in the world, they could interchange positions and would be a nightmare to play against. Over the few years, if Rashford continues the rate of progress he will be up there with the best, I see the similar progression for Havertz and Sancho and hopefully, Greenwood will join them. Sign both Sancho and Havertz, if we can only sign one get Sancho.
It's absolutely insane. Someone genuinely said 'he's left-footed so I'd prefer him on the right to Sancho'. Despite the fact he's never fecking played there! I swear people just get bored of transfer targets, now we need a shinier toy than someone we haven't even signed! I like Havertz as well, he's an extremely attractive and graceful player who could play a great role at United as a midfielder or even false 9. But wanting him instead of Sancho, a player who is not only young, produces insane numbers (in the same league as Havertz) and English, but plays in an important position where we haven't had a natural player since fecking Nani, is crazy to me.
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