Music Kanye West

izzydiggler

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Crackin post by @Mockney

BTW why does his music need so many writers and producers? As far as I know all the music of bon iver, bon iver is written and composed by one Justin Vernon, all of that on Helplessness Blues by one Robin Pecknold.
I could write essays on the subject - some background, I've been surrounded by music my whole life, learned various instruments, my dad owned a recording studio (local, smaller bands) and I'm an amateur musician, songwriter, engineer, producer and the like...I'm don't claim to be a guru but I've spent decades learning all about the processes involved.

In a rock context, each band usually has main songwriter, who will come in with typically a chord progression, riff and/or melody. Different bands will deal with it differently...Queen/U2 moved on to a system of all the group being credited as songwriters - this is partly down to giving the whole group equal royalties and recognising that the whole group contributes (also to save ego battles). The Beatles is almost all 'Lennon/McCartney' even when one would barely contribute to a particular song - you could argue also that even though JL/PM may have written a chord progression to credit themselves, a Harrison riff might actually be what the listener identifies with more, so a lot of people who contribute to a song may not be credited...on the other hand a lot of modern 'artists' walk in to a music studio with everything already done but take a songwriting credit because it suits everyone for a 'star' to push the song sales...I really wouldn't trust any of them...in fact there was a good article about mixing credits for Kanye, which I'll post a link to at the end.

Traditional bands are more capable of writing chords, melodies, riffs etc don't generally need any help. By all accounts Kanye has no musical training or knowledge - he's someone that you're told knows what he wants but isn't capable of doing it himself. To me, this immediately makes 'his' music and claim to be a 'genius' immediately flawed but I digress. Anyway, as this is the case, he needs massive amounts of help, hence the huge credits. He essentially uses multiple people to contribute, picks what he likes and takes a lot of the credit - he's more an A&R man like Simon Cowell than a musician.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what a 'producer' does. It varies but usually they will be responsible for capturing the sound a group wants to achieve, sometimes being part of the creative process but other times not. What Kanye does is farm out all these responsibilities - he's almost a project manager, pulling other people's work together to complete a project. There's a talent in it but it's massively overstated. He may do some beats but it's hardly like writing the Bohemian Rhapsody chord progression - he also sends songs to multiple mix engineers (mixing is an art form that I could write pages about and IMO is harder and more important than the recording). I really can't stand Kanye West and his music - if people do, it's fine but stop calling him an "amazing producer" without knowing what it is.

This article about Daft Punk's Random Access Memories is a great (but long and technical) read:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul13/articles/daft-punk.htm

And this is the Kanye article:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/articles/bauer.htm
 

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By all accounts Kanye has no musical training or knowledge - he's someone that you're told knows what he wants but isn't capable of doing it himself.
Not the video I was looking for, but this was Kanye in the studio with Jon Brion, who did a lot of the actual playing and arranging wherever needed if I remember right. There's better videos somewhere that show them actually at work but I can't find em right now..

 

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This part is disappointing :(

Craig Bauer displays his annoyance candidly at the haphazard manner in which the credits appear on Late Registration — when they appear at all. Several of his mixes were credited to others, and he gets credit for others' mixes. When Bauer received an advance copy of 'Heard 'Em Say', he found his name nowhere on it. "I called and told [Kanye West's camp] they had fouled up on the credits and at first they argued that, then said that it would be corrected on the next pressing," he says. Nearly two million units later, the error is still uncorrected.

"When you put your heart and soul into a complicated project like this, you're doing it for more than money," says Bauer. "It's devastating not to get properly credited for it."
Kind of mad that he had three different mixers working on it at the same time, each in the dark about the other. Wonder what happened to the other two folks.
 

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Does he have them all working for a pittance or is he splurging loads of money on this?

On a side note, I love Daft Punk and hearing "Cola Bottle Baby" for the first time both blew my mind and broke my heart a little :D I respect the fact that they moved away from sampling records to trying to create samples themselves (as Beck did for Midnight Vultures, for another example).
 

izzydiggler

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Does he have them all working for a pittance or is he splurging loads of money on this?

On a side note, I love Daft Punk and hearing "Cola Bottle Baby" for the first time both blew my mind and broke my heart a little :D I respect the fact that they moved away from sampling records to trying to create samples themselves (as Beck did for Midnight Vultures, for another example).
I don't know but no mix engineer worth anything would work for free...which may help to explain why he's $53m in debt.

Honestly, I don't really 'get' samples, so I liked the latest Daft Punk a lot more - it's a great demonstration of how good session musicians sound but unfortunately it's a dying art given the cost of studio time. On Random Access Memories you can almost hear the money but it's one of the best produced albums I've heard in years...it does raise the question again of how much credit Daft Punk should be given for their music but it's very well done.
 

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Sorry, let me rephrase that: a lot of those points definitely apply to Bowie, no maybe about it.

Bowie definitely flitted between already established genres, Bowie definitely made an attempt to build a mythology around his music and Bowie definitely drew heavily from talented musicians he brought in on different albums.

I'm surprised ye'd even try to disagree with those points given they're long established aspects of Bowie's approach. Hell, Bowie himself admitted to all of them.
 

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I don't know but no mix engineer worth anything would work for free...which may help to explain why he's $53m in debt.

Honestly, I don't really 'get' samples, so I liked the latest Daft Punk a lot more - it's a great demonstration of how good session musicians sound but unfortunately it's a dying art given the cost of studio time. On Random Access Memories you can almost hear the money but it's one of the best produced albums I've heard in years...it does raise the question again of how much credit Daft Punk should be given for their music but it's very well done.
Yeah, I'd go back to the Bitches Brew reference on that... it's Miles' name on the album cover, but the final product is as much down to inspired playing by the musicians in a given frame directed by Miles (and Teo Macero on the editing side).

The Cola Bottle Baby sample is awesome. Why I say it broke my heart a bit hearing the original for the first time is because of the realisation of how hard it is to get a sound like that - they lifted it from a great recording. There's just simply and definitively no quick/cheap/easy way to replicate it, which is probably what they realised too and made them so determined to record the last record they way they did. Beyond sampling, it's out of reach for the rest of us :D
 

adexkola

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I'm posting this from a phone

If you're unconvinced of the merits of hip-hop/rap as a legitimate genre music (aka sampling is plagiarism, or all they talk about is bitches and jewelry), don't bother reading this further.

@Mockney Pharrell is a great hitmaker (in collaboration with Chad Hugo). He drove a unique sound, and till today, remains a trendsetter. Kanye has done all that, but his streak of albums from College Dropout through MBDTF places him at least a level above Pharrell. And that makes him one of the best producers in Hip-Hop history.

The suggestion that he is like a project manager is flawed on 2 fronts. First of all, project managers in other genres of music don't get denigrated. George Martin and Quincy Jones are acknowledged as some of the greatest figures in music, not because of their skills playing the guitar, but their ability to craft excellent albums for the Beatles and Motown respectively. Not putting Kanye in that category, so relax.

Second and more important, at his peak, he was not only an executive producer (project manager). He rapped, made the skeleton beats, did the overlaying, mastered them, and did the arrangements. His collaborations enabled him to expand his sound beyond the capabilities of copycats who ripped off his soul sound. I don't know what field you work in, but in my field, project managers draw up unrealistic timelines, underfund tasks, fail to maintain good lines of communication, and bitch and point fingers when the project becomes overdue and over budget.

That tag insinuates that West's best works were compilations of other's works, not his vision put to paper. That's BS. I used to think MBDTF was a bloated, overproduced, and crowded piece of work. On a recent relisten, I got it, and now I think it is fully deserving of all the accolades it got. And Kanye did/does the heavy lifting.

This comes from someone who isn't into Yeezus, and hasn't heard TLOP yet.
 

adexkola

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It's worth noting that on Late Registration, Kanye West's right hand man was Jon Brior, a brilliant man who got his just credits from Kanye. I'm gonna call shenanigans on that claim from Craig Bauer.
 

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He rapped, made the skeleton beats, did the overlaying, mastered them, and did the arrangements.
Not to dispute this, but at least on the albums/tracks that Izzydiggler has posted, the Sound On Sound articles show the opposite to this. Also, Jon Brion did a hell of a lot as regards arrangements on the earlier albums if I remember right.
 

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Not to dispute this, but at least on the albums/tracks that Izzydiggler has posted, the Sound On Sound articles show the opposite to this. Also, Jon Brion did a hell of a lot as regards arrangements on the earlier albums if I remember right.
Even in those articles, what is being described seems more like an iterative process, a back and forth, instead of a "here, turn in the finished product". And it applies only to Stronger and another track, out of the hundreds Kanye has made. He collaborates and gets input from others in his music. Point conceded. I don't see how that takes away from his craft.
 

izzydiggler

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The suggestion that he is like a project manager is flawed on 2 fronts. First of all, project managers in other genres of music don't get denigrated. George Martin and Quincy Jones are acknowledged as some of the greatest figures in music, not because of their skills playing the guitar, but their ability to craft excellent albums for the Beatles and Motown respectively. Not putting Kanye in that category, so relax.

Second and more important, at his peak, he was not only an executive producer (project manager). He rapped, made the skeleton beats, did the overlaying, mastered them, and did the arrangements. His collaborations enabled him to expand his sound beyond the capabilities of copycats who ripped off his soul sound. I don't know what field you work in, but in my field, project managers draw up unrealistic timelines, underfund tasks, fail to maintain good lines of communication, and bitch and point fingers when the project becomes overdue and over budget.

That tag insinuates that West's best works were compilations of other's works, not his vision put to paper. That's BS. I used to think MBDTF was a bloated, overproduced, and crowded piece of work. On a recent relisten, I got it, and now I think it is fully deserving of all the accolades it got. And Kanye did/does the heavy lifting.
Even if you did put Kanye on a level with George Martin, although many people recognise his contribution, nobody would claim he was the genius that 'made' The Beatles.... if Kanye produced The White Album it would be advertised as "Produced by Kanye West" with Lennon/McCartney listed as one of many songwriters/contributors.

I'm not going to argue with people who like the music under his name - that's fine and although I don't like it, I respect people's personal taste. What I can't accept is how he (and fans) claims credit for all the work that other people do, which in his case is a lot. His music is very basic in terms of harmony, he can't sing, IMO his lyrics are awful and he's not as a good a rapper as others, he doesn't mix his music and no, he doesn't master it either - I can't think of a single band that does that as it's a hugely specific set of skills (Sounds like Taken!), requiring years of experience and expertise. Anyway, his contribution is less than is made out.
 

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Even if you did put Kanye on a level with George Martin, although many people recognise his contribution, nobody would claim he was the genius that 'made' The Beatles.... if Kanye produced The White Album it would be advertised as "Produced by Kanye West" with Lennon/McCartney listed as one of many songwriters/contributors.

I'm not going to argue with people who like the music under his name - that's fine and although I don't like it, I respect people's personal taste. What I can't accept is how he (and fans) claims credit for all the work that other people do, which in his case is a lot. His music is very basic in terms of harmony, he can't sing, IMO his lyrics are awful and he's not as a good a rapper as others, he doesn't mix his music and no, he doesn't master it either - I can't think of a single band that does that as it's a hugely specific set of skills (Sounds like Taken!), requiring years of experience and expertise. Anyway, his contribution is less than is made out.
He doesn't claim the credit of others though. For one, I can pull up his credits. He's not Prince or D'Angelo.

He doesn't mix or master currently, but this is stuff he did earlier on his career, even when he was interning with No ID. I'd guess he stopped that around Late Registration.

I'm not going to argue with anything you slap an IMO over. I personally think he's not a great lyricist overall. He has hit insane peaks at times (Gorgeous, All Falls Down), getting messages across that more talented rappers and musicians have failed to convey.

Overall I think he gets his just due from the music sphere. I don't think he gets overrated (except on KTT, forum for Kanye stans) beyond the standard hype afforded to artists of his stature. Plus, a ton of people dismiss his music for one reason or another so it all balances out.
 

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Just to break down the Power credits…

Kanye West - Production, Vocals
Larry Griffin Jr. - Production
Mike Dean - Production, Guitar, Bass, Keyboards
Jeff Bhaskar - Production, Keyboards
Andwele Gardner - Vocals
Ken Lewis - Vocals, Engineering

Francois Bernheim - Afromerica Sample
Jean-Pierre Lang - Afromerica Sample
Boris Bergman - Afromerica Sample
Robert Fripp - King Crimson Sample
Michael Giles - King Crimson Sample
Greg Lake - King Crimson Sample
Ian McDonald - King Crimson Sample
Billy Carter - Cold Grits Sample
Harold Cowart- Cold Grits Sample
Jimmy O'Rourke - Cold Grits Sample
Ron Ziegler - Cold Grits Sample
So actually four credited producers. What makes the track is the rearranging and reimagining of those samples, which is where Hip Hip differs from other music production. There is no way of knowing who had the best ideas of those four producers.

@Mockney

Dre has been accused in the past of taking credit for other producers work. I have to admit that after hearing 'To Pimp a Butterfly' my first thought was 'there is no way that Dre had that much input creatively on this album'. The whole vibe of it has Flying Lotus's fingerprints all over it IMO.
 

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Dre has been accused in the past of taking credit for other producers work. I have to admit that after hearing 'To Pimp a Butterfly' my first thought was 'there is no way that Dre had that much input creatively on this album'. The whole vibe of it has Flying Lotus's fingerprints all over it IMO.
What did Dre say? Totally agree with bolded part. Thundercat too, he was in for a lot of TPAB wasn't he?
 

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He doesn't claim the credit of others though. For one, I can pull up his credits. He's not Prince or D'Angelo.

He doesn't mix or master currently, but this is stuff he did earlier on his career, even when he was interning with No ID. I'd guess he stopped that around Late Registration.

I'm not going to argue with anything you slap an IMO over. I personally think he's not a great lyricist overall. He has hit insane peaks at times (Gorgeous, All Falls Down), getting messages across that more talented rappers and musicians have failed to convey.

Overall I think he gets his just due from the music sphere. I don't think he gets overrated (except on KTT, forum for Kanye stans) beyond the standard hype afforded to artists of his stature. Plus, a ton of people dismiss his music for one reason or another so it all balances out.
I think this surmises perfectly where we are at right now, on one hand people will insist he's a genius and on the other there loads of people dismissive of his merit as an artist because of his ego and in the end the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The Kanye I grew up on from the ages of 11-17 (2003-2009) opened me up to an entirely different idea of rap music, I had never heard a rap song like Through The Wire before when I first heard it and at every subsequent step after he brought something entirely different to the table. Kanye broke through as a producer (ghost producing for D Dot on Bad Boy!) and he was a bloody brilliant one too but as his career progressed he didn't have to lock himself in a room making 5 beats a day for 3 summers and he's clearly started to delegate his visions out however he doesn't take credit for it, all the producers are credited on his last two albums.
 

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What did Dre say? Totally agree with bolded part. Thundercat too, he was in for a lot of TPAB wasn't he?
Dre is listed at the top of the credits as 'executive producer'. Thundercat and Flying Lotus have worked together a lot I think. I always thought the Thundercat played the bass on a lot of his crazy jazz influenced stuff. I always wondered if Thundercat was playing that crazy bass line thing on Wesleys Theory or if it was done on a synth.
 

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So actually four credited producers. What makes the track is the rearranging and reimagining of those samples, which is where Hip Hip differs from other music production. There is no way of knowing who had the best ideas of those four producers.

@Mockney

Dre has been accused in the past of taking credit for other producers work. I have to admit that after hearing 'To Pimp a Butterfly' my first thought was 'there is no way that Dre had that much input creatively on this album'. The whole vibe of it has Flying Lotus's fingerprints all over it IMO.
Dre had no creative input on either of Kendrick's albums, he helped with the mixing but generally Kendrick just plays stuff and Dre just gives his opinion. Hence the Exec-Producer title.
 

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So actually four credited producers. What makes the track is the rearranging and reimagining of those samples, which is where Hip Hip differs from other music production. There is no way of knowing who had the best ideas of those four producers.

@Mockney

Dre has been accused in the past of taking credit for other producers work.
I have to admit that after hearing 'To Pimp a Butterfly' my first thought was 'there is no way that Dre had that much input creatively on this album'. The whole vibe of it has Flying Lotus's fingerprints all over it IMO.
He's bought out producer credits, especially on albums like All Eyez on Me.
 

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Dre is listed at the top of the credits as 'executive producer'. Thundercat and Flying Lotus have worked together a lot I think. I always thought the Thundercat played the bass on a lot of his crazy jazz influenced stuff. I always wondered if Thundercat was playing that crazy bass line thing on Wesleys Theory or if it was done on a synth.
Not actually sure, but Thundercat is awesome. It's him on You're Dead for sure and his brother on drums.
 

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So actually four credited producers. What makes the track is the rearranging and reimagining of those samples, which is where Hip Hip differs from other music production. There is no way of knowing who had the best ideas of those four producers.

@Mockney

Dre has been accused in the past of taking credit for other producers work. I have to admit that after hearing 'To Pimp a Butterfly' my first thought was 'there is no way that Dre had that much input creatively on this album'. The whole vibe of it has Flying Lotus's fingerprints all over it IMO.
A lot of the production during Death Row's heydey was done by Daz Dillinger/Warren G. Dre still has the Chronic and 2001, his status in hip-hop is justified and secure.
 

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Dre is listed at the top of the credits as 'executive producer'. Thundercat and Flying Lotus have worked together a lot I think. I always thought the Thundercat played the bass on a lot of his crazy jazz influenced stuff. I always wondered if Thundercat was playing that crazy bass line thing on Wesleys Theory or if it was done on a synth.
I saw Kendrick Lamar perform the album live, and the bassist on stage was a fraud/nonexistent. He didn't do any of the basslines on TPAB justice. Wish Thundercat was brought along.
 

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I saw Kendrick Lamar perform the album live, and the bassist on stage was a fraud/nonexistent. He didn't do any of the basslines on TPAB justice. Wish Thundercat was brought along.
Ah nuts, that's the danger of using spectacular session musicians on your album :D King Kunta is someone else though I think I read somewhere, not Thundercat.
 

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Anyone seen that 'Real Friends' and 'No more parties in LA' are on Spotify? It popped up on my discover weekly under the artist name 'Silent but Deadly'. Weird, anyone know what this is?
 

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Listened to the album about 5 or 6 times now and while it's good it's nothing amazing. Some of the beats are superb though and I think if they were given to a better rapper and lyricist they'd be great songs. Imo he should start producing more instead of singing on his own stuff because he's still brilliant at that.
 

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@adexkola sorry for the delay, I temporarily forgot I was having this argument ....as you do.

George Martin and Quincy Jones are acknowledged as some of the greatest figures in music, not because of their skills playing the guitar, but their ability to craft excellent albums for the Beatles and Motown respectively. Not putting Kanye in that category, so relax.
Well firstly, I don't think we're actually disagreeing as much as quibbling over the details. I'd never deny that West is one of Hip Hop's greatest producers, and I deliberately acknowledged his talent several times in that post. I also started by stating my issue was more with his fans, and the cult of personality and hype that's built up around him, than it was with him specifically. Though one has inevitably fed the other.

But back on point, the problem is that people very much are putting him the category of Martin and Jones. In fact they're putting him above that, because Kanye isn't the Jones/Martin of that analogy, he's the Michael Jackson/Beatles. The other, lesser known producers are the Martin/Jones parallel. He's even been compared to Bowie in this very thread.

The fact his collaborators aren't as known or respected isn't Kanye's fault - he's acknowledged them - it's the fault of his fans, who've little knowledge and seemingly no interest in how the sausage is made, yet still aggressively insist he deserves the kind of credit a virtuoso song-writer gets (let alone those of a Bowie/Jackson/Beatles caliber) because they're attached to the idea of the lone-star mythical genius. You may not be one of them, but they're out there (and in here) in droves.

Case in point being the supposedly weighty argument that Kanye produced all of his early stuff solo, and has merely gotten less involved as his work became more expansive and adventurous. This strikes me as a slightly weird argument, as I'm more than happy to agree with it (even though evidence in this very thread contests it!) but I'm at a loss to what it proves. Through the Wire is a Chaka Kahn tune. All Falls Down is a Lauren Hill tune. Jesus Walks is an Arc Choir gospel number...If this is Kanye's solo work, all it seems to prove is that the more original the composition, the less involved he was, and the more involved was, the less original the composition. Surely this is precisely why people balk at this unquestionably great producer being lauded as an unquestionably great creative artist in the first place?

Also, just to highlight the stark difference between someone like Kanye and someone like Quincy Jones, Quincy was far more than just a producer. He was a composer, instrumentalist and conductor whose been Oscar nominated for his film scores. This is why I mentioned Pharrell (though you're right that I actually mean both The Neptunes) and Legend, because they're producers who've largely written and composed the tracks that bare their name. Thus it's much easier to appraise their talent, and give them creative credit, than it is to discern Kanye's from a heavily collaborative and sample based album like MDTF, however more impactful or significant it may be. Kanye is a great producer, but he's more of a Hip Hop Cowell than he is a modern Quincy.
 
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It f*cks me off that this megalomaniacal moron 'raps' all over great soul songs like Move On Up. It's like amateur karaoke hour at the Phoenix Club.