They absolutely do count but context is everything. Klopp has won two competitions in ~17 seasons as a manager. He was also relegated once in one of those competitions and was also in the relegation zone for much of his last season with Dortmund. He's lost six finals in a row. SIX. He just does not have the cut-throat, win-at-all-costs mentality that the top managers have.
Klopp record in finals
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Did he not say that’s what the interviewer is leading towards. Don’t think he viewed himself as that. I suppose it comes down to what people’s criteria for success is. You’ll have people who’ll only rate trophies and others that will look at the body of work. He’s taken Dortmund and now Liverpool to the final of the biggest competition there is. That’s not an easy task for anyone to even put yourself in the position. His records in finals might not be great but surely just getting yourself in to them is a sign of a good manager.
Presumably you hold Klopp accountable to a certain extent regarding the situation he currently finds himself in with his keepers, no? Ultimately he's responsible for the players he buys and the keeping situation has been a huge blindspot for him and something he hasn't addressed.
He can't be absolved of all blame
Yeah, no I agree with that. It is not as impeccable as actually winning things tho, which he doesn't seem to manage a whole lot. If he actually is the serial loser that he seems to be (in finals at least) i don't fear Liverpool. They can reach as many second places and finals with him as they want as long as they lose every single one of them. I wont admit he is top-class until he wins PL or CL, then he certainly has deserved it.
He is either an absolute beast of a mid-table manager, or the worst of top-level managers (Conte, Simmone, Mourinho, Pep) depending on how you rate him.
Talk about context then proceed to hold his time at Mainz and his initial years at Dortmund against him
Presume he means Mourinho. His agenda is showing.
Ahh I see. Mourinho's achievements speak for themselves. Him and Guardiola are clearly special managers (win trophies in their sleep) and almost all of their former players wax lyrical about their planning, organization and motivation.
Zidane might be joining them soon depending on what he does in the coming 3-4 years.
Was just having a quick look at something and Jose hasn’t been to a CL final since Inter. Since then only Simeone and Allegri can match Klopp with 2 a piece. Obviously the next step for one of those two is to win it but that’s a fairly impressive record.
Not saying winning the champions league suddenly makes you a great manager... I mean DiMateo.
Klopp is Sisyphus of modern times. He will comeback to some finals only to lose again and again. He will never win any of those finals i hope.
Maybe his players aren’t mentally strong enough? After all, he blames defeats on the wind, dry grass, officials or teams playing long balls against them.
Only simeone and allegri can match klopp? You know the previous 2 actually won stuff and it's them playing catch up?
For how long? Didn't we win something even during those years?
I follow football since mid 90s and I can't understand how L'pool can't solve their GK problem since that time till today, yet celebrate net spend trophy. I meant why would you sell player for profit, just so you have positive net spend, but refuse to strengthen an area you have problem for 2 decades? Or they simply lay their bed and lie on it, and the rest is just excuse? Every team has problem, problem solving is the ability in itself. Lovely how some apologist here stoop so low as brining up SAF's crisis with GK post Big Pete here as if it's comparable.
Anyone that compares Aleggri who has won 4 domestic doubles in a row, to Klopp who has won 0 trophies in that period is on some hard drugs.
Lol. Now we know what happened to ando. It's his dietician
In the context of the conversation I was having with the other user it fits in. The guys mentioned have been to more champions league finals in recent times than Pep or Jose who’s last visits were Inter and Barca. 7/8 years whatever it was.
I was pointing out that even getting to the final is an achievement in itself.
Guess what?
It means jack shit if you don't win them. Just makes you a loser.
I hated it when United fans used to big up the fact we got to 3 finals in 4 years, we fecking lost two of them. Just makes us sound like we're clutching at straws.
Or maybe he's never been the manager of the biggest club in his league, let alone one that should be winning the champions league?Player getting injured is part and parcel of the game. This has happened 6 times in a row, so maybe there is something wrong with his game management.
If you have to exclude GK blunder then you have to exclude players like Salah's brilliance also.
He was expected to lose every time.
Yesterday’s tactic from Klopp was naive.
No consequense analyse, just used the same approach he had home against City without taking into account different venue and more experienced opponents.
At home he has the crowd 100% behind him. The majority of all 50/50 decisions will go in his favor and his players are mentally prepared for what’s in front of them. This tactic normally works against over confident teams or teams with little experience of “gegen-press”. City was caught off guard and didn’t had the formula to counter.
Real Madrid was a different animal.
First. In a final on a neutral venue the referee will be more reluctant to use his cards. That works in favor the first 15-20 minutes in each half to the team with less possession, the team who often defend. Liverpool started with pedal on the metal from the first second, high intensive press, all or nothing. Such tactic needs instant results otherwise it will mostly backfire when the opponents find their rhythm.
Second. In a final more energy is used in off fields activities. Nervousness, expectations, voyaging and so on. This was Madrid’s fourth final in five years, almost all starters had experience from several earlier finals. This was Liverpool’s first big final for almost all their players. Only Klopp himself had earlier CL final experience. Things like this his makes a difference. When Ronaldo, Ramos and Marcelo o Co was calm and confident b fore the game the Liverpool players where pumped up liked young MMA fighters. The first 20-25 minutes the red shirts was running like the game was only 30 minutes long.
Most of the Liverpool players got mentally tired when Salah was injured. No plan B, without a leader the team was disoriented, and against the most experienced players in the world they where lost.
Liverpool made despite this a heroic game. All credit to the outfield players. Many of them where magnificent but with a nervous goal keeper and the wrong tactic the game was lost the minute Salah went off.
Jürgen Klopp must accept that the outcome was partly on his shoulders. Karious had a nightmare but the manager could have made it easier for the whole team with a more cautious approach.
My take on this is that if Liverpool had played more defensively, saved a bit energy, and using their speed on counters the result could have ended differently. Mané and Firmino are deadly with space in front of them.
No consequense analyse, just used the same approach he had home against City without taking into account different venue and more experienced opponents.
At home he has the crowd 100% behind him. The majority of all 50/50 decisions will go in his favor and his players are mentally prepared for what’s in front of them. This tactic normally works against over confident teams or teams with little experience of “gegen-press”. City was caught off guard and didn’t had the formula to counter.
Real Madrid was a different animal.
First. In a final on a neutral venue the referee will be more reluctant to use his cards. That works in favor the first 15-20 minutes in each half to the team with less possession, the team who often defend. Liverpool started with pedal on the metal from the first second, high intensive press, all or nothing. Such tactic needs instant results otherwise it will mostly backfire when the opponents find their rhythm.
Second. In a final more energy is used in off fields activities. Nervousness, expectations, voyaging and so on. This was Madrid’s fourth final in five years, almost all starters had experience from several earlier finals. This was Liverpool’s first big final for almost all their players. Only Klopp himself had earlier CL final experience. Things like this his makes a difference. When Ronaldo, Ramos and Marcelo o Co was calm and confident b fore the game the Liverpool players where pumped up liked young MMA fighters. The first 20-25 minutes the red shirts was running like the game was only 30 minutes long.
Most of the Liverpool players got mentally tired when Salah was injured. No plan B, without a leader the team was disoriented, and against the most experienced players in the world they where lost.
Liverpool made despite this a heroic game. All credit to the outfield players. Many of them where magnificent but with a nervous goal keeper and the wrong tactic the game was lost the minute Salah went off.
Jürgen Klopp must accept that the outcome was partly on his shoulders. Karious had a nightmare but the manager could have made it easier for the whole team with a more cautious approach.
My take on this is that if Liverpool had played more defensively, saved a bit energy, and using their speed on counters the result could have ended differently. Mané and Firmino are deadly with space in front of them.
I think if you look at where Pool were when Klopp took over and where they are now you can clearly see big progress. He’s obviously an excellent manager to do that and making it to the CL final with Pool is no small feat.
I don’t think winning the Coca Cola cup or Uefa cup would change that too much.
I don’t think winning the Coca Cola cup or Uefa cup would change that too much.
Not sure about that.
Liverpool haven't won the league since 1990, having been out of the top 4 in several occassions. Finishing 4th and qualifying for CL final is above average for them.
In the future, if they strengthen their squad and keep their stars, I can see them improve their domestic level and perform quite well in CL.
In the interest of fairness it should be noted he has been the clear underdog in every single one of those Cup finals (Maybe an expection for the german cup final in 2015, although you could certainly argue wolfsburg was the favorite there, finishing higher in the Bundesliga that season and having KDB playing unreal football) and he actually overperformed in some of those Cups by even getting to the final (CL 2013 and this year come to mind, especially).
So this whole notion of him being a bad Coach in deciding games doesn't really hold up all too well, i think. Plenty of other reasons to dislike him, if you don't like his particular style, but his teams have actually overperformed cup wise during his career, not underperformed, i would argue.
So this whole notion of him being a bad Coach in deciding games doesn't really hold up all too well, i think. Plenty of other reasons to dislike him, if you don't like his particular style, but his teams have actually overperformed cup wise during his career, not underperformed, i would argue.
nah, world level football is an industry and football seasons are 365 days marathons... truly big clubs need to be competitive in ALL the competitions they enter, every given year... as for cups, you do not get invited to finals indeed, on the contrary you must reach that stage step by step, after 8 months huffing & puffing while battling for domestic honours... titanism & thug posturing are for the fans, clubs just sustain their brand and count the monies
For how long will finishing just 4th and losing finals be good enough ? At some point you'll need to win things.
It's time for Klopp to improve his game management if he aspires to become a more savvy manager. He's got good motivating skills and a very decent eye for integrating signings but that's not enough.
Anyone can lose a final or 2, it can happen.
But 6 cup finals lost in a row suggests something deeper is going on. Maybe a complete unwillingness to do what it needs on the day, switching tactics up, having the right mentality etc.
Long may it continue though with him!Ideally not even getting to the finals, to avoid stress!
But 6 cup finals lost in a row suggests something deeper is going on. Maybe a complete unwillingness to do what it needs on the day, switching tactics up, having the right mentality etc.
Long may it continue though with him!Ideally not even getting to the finals, to avoid stress!
It doesn't.
If you enter your finals as the clear underdog, then the only reason to hold losses in those finals against you is for bantz.
You can argue that maybe he needs to change his approach, but maybe, and this may be too uncontroversial of an opinion... Maybe that approach, which got him to said finals, was defeated by superior talent?
Does he only face superior teams in finals and not in the rounds leading up to the final?
Plenty of top managers have won against superior sides. Hell Liverpool had a habit of beating better sides only 12 months ago
They destroyed the runaway PL champions in the quarters.
He beat City this season. In the season Dortmund made it to the final, he defeated Jose's Madrid.
Now, again, I look at those 2 campaigns and laud him for overachieving with the squad he had. I don't lambast him for failing to clear the final hurdle against a Bayern side who were doped up with memories of their defeat against Chelsea, or a Real team on the verge of a 3-peat. I mean, it's cool for bantz, but objectively speaking, it's not the most sensible way of looking at things.
So that's 2 finals out of 6?
He's not facing Madrid every other final though. Klopp just fails to come up with a game plan that gives his side a chance to win.
There are no upsets. No tactical masterclass. They just play normally and lose
Praise him when he beats favourites, make excuses when he loses to favourites. Basically no matter what happens Klopp comes out with credit without actually winning anything with Liverpool.
Its funny because when Liverpool are favourites and lose barely anyone praises the team that beats them, and there are still excuses for Klopp despite being favourites.
Its funny because when Liverpool are favourites and lose barely anyone praises the team that beats them, and there are still excuses for Klopp despite being favourites.
Expecting an upset is silly. That's why it's called an upset. You can't expect an upset, otherwise it's no longer called an upset!
I believe he met Pep's Bayern in a majority of the other finals. The Sevilla defeat in the Europa League stands out but I rate Sevilla. Even if we count that, that's one final out of 6 where he was the clear favorite. Still not enough to make a mountain out of his finals record. Unless bantz like I've said before.
Yop. Lack of ruthlessness like someone mentioned earlier
You can expect an upset though? This team is better but if the lesser side turns it on then they'll give the favourites problems.
I expected Liverpool to beat City in the quarters but they still weren't favourites. For example.
I expected them to give City problems and they did. I expected them to ask questions of Real's defense. They did. I did not expect them to go through in either case. But I see what you're saying.
Overall, it's still a season of progression. Just one with a very bitter ending.
C’mon give him some credit. Dortmund were in a financial mess before he arrived. He had very little funds and used a lot of youth players to win those titles. Then took them to a Champions League final. Bayern decided at that point they didn’t want a rival in the Bundesliga and just stole their best players.
And those 6 finals except the Europa League final against Sevilla they weren’t favourites in any of those games.
Correct. You only lost one final this season instead of two.
The Jimmy White of managers.
He didn't lost 6 champions league finals, he lost 6 finals. He lost against Wolfsburg and also against City when City barely finished 4th ahead of ManUtd on goal difference. He also lost against Sevilla who spent way less than Liverpool on transfers and wages.