Klopp's at the wheel | PL winners 2019/20

[Paul_Scholes18]

Normally don't have much time for Tompkins (and his "I anecdotally predicted someone would ship 5 past Brazil at the wc", just blergh). He's longwinded and has had us winning the league by numbers any day now for 15 years.

There is some interesting stuff with xG dependent on the scoreline though and how it reflects control of games.

City's drop massively when they go a goal behind, our highest xG is when we are a goal behind (we've yet to be more than one goal behind this season). And also spend much less time being behind than city (17% vs 7%).

City really rake up their xG when they are either behind by more than one goal or ahead by more than one (ie the least consequential phases of a game), which is the stage of the game where our xG output is the lowest as the three points are in the bag by then.

Have not looked at these stats fully, but from watching Pool raise the game when behind a lot. Not against us much, but they still got a fluke goal.
Same for us under SAF no doubt.

Most extreme in the CL vs Barca last season. You get the hope they will drop points yet they improve near the end and win. Very frustrating.

 

[giorno]

The poor quality of an opponent isn't luck. That's just poor quality.

It's something outside of your control that goes your way, ergo, it's luck

 

[RobinLFC]

It's something outside of your control that goes your way, ergo, it's luck

I'm not lucky when I go to the Sahara and it's not raining.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

It's something outside of your control that goes your way, ergo, it's luck

What do they control as a manager? Klopp can't control what his players do beyond giving them instructions.
So if Salah and Van Dijk are good or improving then he is a lucky manager etc.
He can buy or sell players, but is it luck if they turn out good or not.

I guess your point is he can't influence the other teams players much.
Although Liverpools tactics might effect their game etc. Mental factors etc that might be a result of Klopps work in the past.
It is less than he can influence his own team though.

 

[giorno]

I'm not lucky when I go to the Sahara and it's not raining.

Yes, that is a pertinent analogy

Because obbiously you made sure those big missed chances fell to shite finishers such as...Danny Ings, or Batshuay, or Son...

Carry on

 

[giorno]

What do they control as a manager? Klopp can't control what his players do beyond giving them instructions.
So if Salah and Van Dijk are good or improving then he is a lucky manager etc.
He can buy or sell players, but is it luck if they turn out good or not.

No. What???? I'm sorry, what exactly...what does Klopp have to do with...

What???

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

No. What???? I'm sorry, what exactly...what does Klopp have to do with...

What???

Just my point over control.
Most things are outside our control, but we can still influence things.
Also predict what will happen and use your skills to deal with it.
It is not like FIFA etc.

If your opponent is poor that is something you can potentially make them.
Using tactics and the right players to do that job.

 

[RobinLFC]

Yes, that is a pertinent analogy

Because obbiously you made sure those big missed chances fell to shite finishers such as...Danny Ings, or Batshuay, or Son...

Carry on

I never said that's not luck, I gave an apt comparison to show that your whole "ergo" statement was crap.

 

[Halds]

It's something outside of your control that goes your way, ergo, it's luck

Well, obviously we're not in control of the quality of opponents. But I fail to see what that has to do with luck. With this logic every match is down to luck.

'You lucky bastards only won because you have better players..'

 

[giorno]

Just my point over control.
Most things are outside our control, but we can still influence things.

That is the definition of control. Things you have the power to influence

If your opponent is poor that is something you can potentially make them.
Using tactics and the right players to do that job.

In certain situations, sure. Sitters by definition, are the kind of situations you don't have much control over

I never said that's not luck, I gave an apt comparison to show that your whole "ergo" statement was crap.

Ok cool

 

[giorno]

Well, obviously we're not in control of the quality of opponents. But I fail to see what that has to do with luck. With this logic every match is down to luck.

'You lucky bastards only won because you have better players..'

You can substitute the word luck with whatever else fits your definition if you want

Point is you've had a number of games that went your way because of the mistakes of your opponents. Uninfluenced, big mistakes that more often than not don't happen.

 

[B20]

You can substitute the word luck with whatever else fits your definition if you want

Point is you've had a number of games that went your way because of the mistakes of your opponents. Uninfluenced, big mistakes that more often than not don't happen.

Not too sure about that one.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

That is the definition of control. Things you have the power to influence


In certain situations, sure. Sitters by definition, are the kind of situations you don't have much control over


Ok cool

I can influence you by responding. Although I do not control what you are going to write back.
Control is much more strong than influence for me.
The manager control the team and CEO controls the club. The fans influence it or at least try to do it.
I think we might just have been confused over the definitions.

If you have minimal or no influence over one event then we can call your benefits from it good or bad luck.
Like if an asteroid hit the earth and wiped out most humans we could call it bad luck for Pool.
Good luck for us United fans since Liverpool would not win the league and we avoided the suffering .

 

[redman5]

You can substitute the word luck with whatever else fits your definition if you want

Point is you've had a number of games that went your way because of the mistakes of your opponents. Uninfluenced, big mistakes that more often than not don't happen.

Don't you think that playing against a side that very rarely loses might be an influential factor ? Players might be snatching at chances they'd normally put away with ease.

 

[giorno]

Don't you think that playing against a side that very rarely loses might be an influential factor ? Players might be snatching at chances they'd normally put away with ease.

I think that is a possible explanation, and i think it definitely has an impact, yes. This much of an impact though, i'm not so sure

I think your season is just a perfect storm. Great team, great players, incredible mentality and levels of confidence and belief, a strong defensive plan that negates opponents, reduces potential negative variables and thus negative variations, an aura of invincibility that further negatively impacts opponents. And then on top of all that, every in-game break you needed went your way

 

[Stacks]

For the minute I am calm as it was always gonna happen at some point. when it will become unbearable will be when they start referecing that this is the best league performance by any English side and thus they are better than any english side in history and maybe the world. Liverpool fans always claim the way they do it is better than everyone elses and their players are automatically the best in the world.

 

[B20]

, every in-game break you needed went your way

Nah, that overlooks the ones not going our way that we've had work for to overcome. Penalties not given, dodgy goals given, a soft goal conceded.

Nobody remembers those because we win the game in the end, but that long string of 2-1 wins required a lot of hard work to secure.

 

[giorno]

Nah, that overlooks the ones not going our way that we've had work for to overcome. Penalties not given, dodgy goals given, a soft goal conceded.

Nobody remembers those because we win the game in the end, but that long string of 2-1 wins required a lot of hard work to secure.

I said the ones you needed.

The ones you overcame obviously do not fall into this category(and before you say you might have overcome those as well, the point is you didn't have to)

We aren't talking about the difference between 24W 1D vs midtable results here

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I think that is a possible explanation, and i think it definitely has an impact, yes. This much of an impact though, i'm not so sure

I think your season is just a perfect storm. Great team, great players, incredible mentality and levels of confidence and belief, a strong defensive plan that negates opponents, reduces potential negative variables and thus negative variations, an aura of invincibility that further negatively impacts opponents. And then on top of all that, every in-game break you needed went your way

I think early on the season they had some VAR luck far too often that saved them.
Although I think our inability to score against them recently was probably about having no Rashford around.
Also a player like Pereira would have very low confidence.
Spurs was not in a good spell either. A frustrated Mourinho do not give you much confidence so I think that played a big part.
They fighted for that goal, but just didn't have the mental stability in the minds of the players.

It could have potentially been 1-1 in those games. Although it was fairly predictable that we would waste chances.
Rashford and Kane out with injury should count as big luck for them though. They did not influence that and if they did
then we need to figure out who the rat is in our medical team that mess with Rashfords health.

 

[giorno]

I think early on the season they had some VAR luck far too often that saved them.

They didn't though. Not particularly

 

[vkd]

For the minute I am calm as it was always gonna happen at some point. when it will become unbearable will be when they start referecing that this is the best league performance by any English side and thus they are better than any english side in history and maybe the world. Liverpool fans always claim the way they do it is better than everyone elses and their players are automatically the best in the world.

Oh, the laughs from this type of posts throughout past years. Gorgeous.

Now though it turns out to be true and it's not that funny though.

 

[redman5]

I think early on the season they had some VAR luck far too often that saved them.
Although I think our inability to score against them recently was probably about having no Rashford around.
Also a player like Pereira would have very low confidence.
Spurs was not in a good spell either. A frustrated Mourinho do not give you much confidence so I think that played a big part.
They fighted for that goal, but just didn't have the mental stability in the minds of the players.

It could have potentially been 1-1 in those games. Although it was fairly predictable that we would waste chances.
Rashford and Kane out with injury should count as big luck for them though. They did not influence that and if they did
then we need to figure out who the rat is in our medical team that mess with Rashfords health.

All this stuff about 'what might have been' is just dealing with imponderables. Even if some of those missed opposition chances had been converted, or some VAR decisions had gone against us, there's no saying we wouldn't have gone on to win the game anyway. We have shown this season an ability to go through the gears when need be. We've also shown that when the situation arises we can increase the tempo & intensity of our game. & the massive flaw in this argument about the other sides missing good chances is that we've missed our fair share too. We should have been out of sight in the recent matches against United & Spurs. It was only our profligacy in front of goal after we'd gone one up that actually kept the other 2 teams still in with a chance come the final few minutes. You're not the first one to overlook this somewhat important fact.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

All this stuff about 'what might have been' is just dealing with imponderables. Even if some of those missed opposition chances had been converted, or some VAR decisions had gone against us, there's no saying we wouldn't have gone on to win the game anyway. We have shown this season an ability to go through the gears when need be. We've also shown that when the situation arises we can increase the tempo & intensity of our game. & the massive flaw in this argument about the other sides missing good chances is that we've missed our fair share too. We should have been out of sight in the recent matches against United & Spurs. It was only our profligacy in front of goal after we'd gone one up that actually kept the other 2 teams still in with a chance come the final few minutes. You're not the first one to overlook this somewhat important fact.

Of course we are talking abuut hypotheticals here. Since you have won most games there are more potential situations that could have resulted in something different.
Your side missing a chance when you won doesn't really matter. Since you won even not scoring them.
Same as if you have bad luck with a referee few cares very much if you win.

You didn't create that much in those games. You had the goal rightfully disallowed and one big chance from Salah. Against Spurs they took over the game in the second half.
Even if you did create much the argument would still hold.
We didn't really create much against you. Although we had two good chances and some later pressure without creating much.

 

[Stacks]

Oh, the laughs from this type of posts throughout past years. Gorgeous.

Now though it turns out to be true and it's not that funny though.

It's not true until you win multiple comps in on season. Thats a true great. Mounting all front. Putting all eggs in one basket and and hatching a golden goose is nice but domination is the game. Win as many comps in a season and leave nothing for anyone else.

 

[redman5]

Of course we are talking abuut hypotheticals here. Since you have won most games there are more potential situations that could have resulted in something different.
Your side missing a chance when you won doesn't really matter. Since you won even not scoring them.
Same as if you have bad luck with a referee few cares very much if you win.

You didn't create that much in those games. You had the goal rightfully disallowed and one big chance from Salah. Against Spurs they took over the game in the second half.
Even if you did create much the argument would still hold.
We didn't really create much against you. Although we had two good chances and some later pressure without creating much.

What about the Mane chance in the first half that DDG saved with his leg ? Or your keeper tipping Henderson's shot on to the post early in the 2nd half ? Selective memory problems ?

Your team were well beaten, even the vast majority of sensible posters on the Caf's post-match thread admitted as much. We could, & should, have been 3 up against Spurs before they came into the game. So we can all go with the hypothetical 'what if's & 'if only's' can't we ?

 

[Dumbstar]

You can substitute the word luck with whatever else fits your definition if you want

Point is you've had a number of games that went your way because of the mistakes of your opponents. Uninfluenced, big mistakes that more often than not don't happen.

Which is why a 38 game season is the final definition of the best team in the land. Luck evens itself out and all that. Where Ings missed a golden opportunity, Salah blazed an open goal over the bar somewhere else. It's not luck that Southampton were 0-0 at the time and Liverpool were already 3-0 in the other game. It's called myopia.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

What about the Mane chance in the first half that DDG saved with his leg ? Or your keeper tipping Henderson's shot on to the post early in the 2nd half ? Selective memory problems ?

Your team were well beaten, even the vast majority of sensible posters on the Caf's post-match thread admitted as much. We could, & should, have been 3 up against Spurs before they came into the game. So we can all go with the hypothetical 'what if's & 'if only's' can't we ?

The Mane chance was an easy save for De Gea. Think the other one was not a massive chance either.
Of course your side is used to howlers in your favor so I understand your rating everything as massive chance.
Many different scenarios could have played out. You ignore some and pick others.
Noone said we deserved to win or that we played that well. Although we could have easily nicked a draw.
Spurs even better chance to do it.
Now you could have won with 2 or 3 too. Just that doesn't matter much since you would have gained 3 points either way.

If goaldifference was important you could argue for it, but it is not.

 

[giorno]

Which is why a 38 game season is the final definition of the best team in the land. Luck evens itself out and all that. Where Ings missed a golden opportunity, Salah blazed an open goal over the bar somewhere else. It's not luck that Southampton were 0-0 at the time and Liverpool were already 3-0 in the other game. It's called myopia.

But it is. It's something outside your ability to influence meaningfully that goes your way. Whatever you want to call it

It's the difference between 73 points out 75 instead of, say, 65

 

[Dumbstar]

But it is. It's something outside your ability to influence meaningfully that goes your way. Whatever you want to call it

It's the difference between 73 points out 75 instead of, say, 65

Yeah, must be my misunderstanding. I'm really happy that the whole world is losing its shit over us winning, nay destroying, the PL with all sorts of mental gymnastics.

Apologies for interrupting, I am enjoying your's and other's intelligent comments.

 

[royboy16]

Klopp says no

 

[Vault Dweller]

Klopp says no

To be fair, I did think that was a nice touch from Klopp.

 

[royboy16]

To be fair, I did think that was a nice touch from Klopp.

Yeap.

 

[redman5]

I was 10 years old when United won the European Cup in 1968. Gutted doesn't even cover the way I felt seeing them lift the trophy. However I too decided to send a letter to Busby & the players. As I wasn't able to articulate my disappointment quite in the same way the young lad from Ireland has done, I simply wrote 'go f**k yourselves'. My disappointment was further compounded by the fact that Sir Matt never replied to my letter. I mean, talk about ignorant.

 

[Josh 76]

I was 10 years old when United won the European Cup in 1968. Gutted doesn't even cover the way I felt seeing them lift the trophy. However I too decided to send a letter to Busby & the players. As I wasn't able to articulate my disappointment quite in the same way the young lad from Ireland has done, I simply wrote 'go f**k yourselves'. My disappointment was further compounded by the fact that Sir Matt never replied to my letter. I mean, talk about ignorant.

I remember trying to phone OT from a pay phone (to all the youngsters out there, it's a telephone in a red large box that you put coins into, then can 'only' call some one.) And wanting to ask Ron Atkinson why are we so crap.

 

[redman5]

I remember trying to phone OT from a pay phone (to all the youngsters out there, it's a telephone in a red large box that you put coins into, then can 'only' call some one.) And wanting to ask Ron Atkinson why are we so crap.

When Ferguson took over from big Ron I was manager of a large newsagents in Alderley Edge. One of our customers at the time was ex United winger Jesper Olsen. I heard on the radio one day that he was being sold to Ajax (I think). Back then it was the done thing for players to be sold at any time during the season, & they generally went very quickly. As he only paid his newspaper & magazine delivery account once every 6 months I was fearful he might not remember to pay his outstanding bill of nearly £250, so I rang up Old Trafford to ask if it were possible to speak to someone regarding the situation. I was shocked when the lady on the phone transferred me straight through to Ferguson himself. He was very pleasant & assured me he'd get Olsen to call in the following day to settle up. The player did as his manager said & paid in full his outstanding debt. Looking back at what your ex-manager achieved with United I wished I'd stayed on the phone a bit longer & tried to convince him that his future lay at much better places than a club that hadn't won a league title in almost 20 years.

Unlike my previous post this was actually a true story

 

[mu4c_20le]

Yeah, must be my misunderstanding. I'm really happy that the whole world is losing its shit over us winning, nay destroying, the PL with all sorts of mental gymnastics.

Apologies for interrupting, I am enjoying your's and other's intelligent comments.

No offense but I honestly think the world stopped caring. There was a time when everyone cheered against you, like last year when it was still very close, because it's funny to see you slip up again and to extend the title drought. But ever since there's been virtually no competition in the league this year, I don't think people are that bothered anymore.