Kolarov - "Football fans know nothing about football..."

eire-red

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I understand where he is coming from and he is right to an extent, but under his logic Mourinho should never have been as successful as he has been because he never played the game at the highest level, or anywhere near it. Similarly, not every great player has gone on to become a successful manager, and not all successful managers were exceptional managers.

His assumption is like saying sporting professionals are perfectly rational, and therefore have greater ability to make tactical decisions with a much deeper knowledge of the game. While of course managers and players have a much greater understanding of football, as they should because that is what they are paid for, this does not make all of our thoughts and opinions on the game invalid. The beauty of football is that no two people see the same game.

For example, almost all coaches have favourites who play week in, week out, or systems that might not suit a team but it is what they are used to, or the system that they have built their philosophy on how the game should be played. Does this mean that a coach is right? Or that they cannot be questioned because they are percieved as an expert? Football is completely subjective, no two people see the same game. To suggest that fans who dedicate hours and hours to watching football on a yearly basis "know nothing" is a bit more than ignorant, I do understand where he is coming from to an extent.

Regardless, you don't need to know how to build a watch to tell the time.
 

stevoc

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I've watched movies for more than thousands of hours i cant act, nor direct a movie.
Thats unfortunate mate, but no doubt you have a decent understanding of how Movies are made. You can enjoy them, follow the plot and decide whether or not you liked it. Form an opinion on which bits you liked or disliked and maybe even how you think it could have been better. So you will obviously know something about them.
 

DrRodo

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Kolarov is absolutely spot on to me

We can decide if we like what we see or what not, and we may have an idea of what we would like to see instead of what there is

But how about going to the training ground and fixing the problem right there with all those overpaid athletes looking at you

Its absolutely deluded when we think we now better than high end managers. Its an elite position and simply not anyone can reach it
 

Sky1981

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Thats unfortunate mate, but no doubt you have a decent understanding of how Movies are made. You can enjoy them, follow the plot and decide whether or not you liked it. Form an opinion on which bits you liked or disliked and maybe even how you think it could have been better. So you will obviously know something about them.
Nope..i cant even create my own wedding video let alone a marvel blockbuster movie.

Another example is english. We all speak english here and many of us are native speaker, but that doesnt mean we can teach english literature class in highschool
 

amolbhatia50k

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Kolarov is absolutely spot on to me

We can decide if we like what we see or what not, and we may have an idea of what we would like to see instead of what there is

But how about going to the training ground and fixing the problem right there with all those overpaid athletes looking at you

Its absolutely deluded when we think we now better than high end managers. Its an elite position and simply not anyone can reach it
Wrong. The fans have often called out mistakes made by their club which the club (manager, board, CE etc) naturally felt were good decisions at the time when they took them. It happens all the time in football for the simple reason, which is escaping you, and is that managers despite being highly accomplished professionals in their respective field, are human being who are prone to making mistakes. And sometimes it doesn't take a professional to be able to spot them.

The hiring of David Moyes. Surely no layman can tell SAF and Gill that they're wrong?

The signing of Andy Carroll. Who were we to say that was a shit signing?

Alexis Sanchez. How could some fans suggest he was on the decline while everyone else was excited and Mourinho wanted him?

Real Madrid not signing a CF to replace Ronaldo.

Chelsea signing Bakayoko and Morata. Who are we to advise a manager who beat Pep and Mourinho to the PL title?

The list is probably endless. Also, you don't have to be able to out perform them to be able to spot wrong decisions they're making. That in itself doesn't make you capable of doing their job.

Also I do feel where Kolarov has a point is with respect to 'tactical advise'. Despite trying to understand as much as I can, I think it's very hard for us to truly know enough about the tactical side of the game.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Yes it seems logical for someone to watch 75-100 hours of something every year for 10-20-30-40+ years and understand absolutely nothing about it. Especially football which as we all know is as complex as Quantum Mechanics and only a select group of people on the planet actually understand it.
:lol: That's a good way of putting it. Also you see ex players often saying the same stuff that fans are. So apparently only those individuals actually on the pitch at that particular time know anything. Seems convenient to me.
 

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Nope..i cant even create my own wedding video let alone a marvel blockbuster movie.

Another example is english. We all speak english here and many of us are native speaker, but that doesnt mean we can teach english literature class in highschool
So you know nothing at all about movies? I think not mate.

You and i seem to be talking about very different things. You don't need to be able to write/direct a $1billion movie to have an understanding of movies. Movie critics can't act or direct and yet they understand the medium better than most.

Kolarov said fans know nothing about football. Which is obviously nonsense, they don't know nearly as much as professional coaches. That doesn't mean they know nothing.
 

haram

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People taking him saying “nothing” literally...

He is right.
 

Sky1981

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Wrong. The fans have often called out mistakes made by their club which the club (manager, board, CE etc) naturally felt were good decisions at the time when they took them. It happens all the time in football for the simple reason, which is escaping you, and is that managers despite being highly accomplished professionals in their respective field, are human being who are prone to making mistakes. And sometimes it doesn't take a professional to be able to spot them.

The hiring of David Moyes. Surely no layman can tell SAF and Gill that they're wrong?

The signing of Andy Carroll. Who were we to say that was a shit signing?

Alexis Sanchez. How could some fans suggest he was on the decline while everyone else was excited and Mourinho wanted him?

Real Madrid not signing a CF to replace Ronaldo.

Chelsea signing Bakayoko and Morata. Who are we to advise a manager who beat Pep and Mourinho to the PL title?

The list is probably endless. Also, you don't have to be able to out perform them to be able to spot wrong decisions they're making. That in itself doesn't make you capable of doing their job.

Also I do feel where Kolarov has a point is with respect to 'tactical advise'. Despite trying to understand as much as I can, I think it's very hard for us to truly know enough about the tactical side of the game.
Football club is a long run investment. What seems like an eternity for fans is only a 5 year business cycle for glazers and ed.

What seems simple for us to say in forum (restructure, board sacking, replacing ed) aren't that simple in such a giant club. CEOs need to adapt as well, football men sometimes made the shittiest business decision and to be fair vice versa. Can you imagine gary neville making a transfer deal with agents and lawyers and made the smart decision better than ed?

It took bayern and germany 10 years to rebuild their squad on the go. Barcelona 2006 was started years before they bear fruit. Took saf 5 years to lay a solid foundation.

Fans know what's wrong. The problem is they think they know how to fix it.
 

padr81

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Asking football fans whether or not they know nothing about football isn't generally going to yield the most accurate answers.
Fair enough, I should have worded it better, but at least it got a debate going.

I'd say its about 50/50 agreeing and disagreeing, which probably means he's 100% right. There is also some cracking "well the average fan knows nothing about football but I'd like to think I know..." which is great.
 

Sky1981

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So you know nothing at all about movies? I think not mate.

You and i seem to be talking about very different things. You don't need to be able to write/direct a $1billion movie to have an understanding of movies. Movie critics can't act or direct and yet they understand the medium better than most.

Kolarov said fans know nothing about football. Which is obviously nonsense, they don't know nearly as much as professional coaches. That doesn't mean they know nothing.
I dont even know which camera to use, which angle to shoot from, and i sure as hell dont know how to direct my actors to act. I know when they're not acting well but i dont know the practical solutions.

I know smailing tends to have lapse of concentration, but i do not know what training method that i need to employ to rectify it. I know lukaku cant trap and keep the ball well, but how to make him better? Which training should i employ? What short term solution? Change our formation? What if i change the formation and the problem switched to shaw who can't cross? Or fellaini who cant seem to find lukaku for through ball?

I know hazard strenght and probably his weakness, but i dont know how to nulify him, the best i can come up with is stick a man to mark him all game, but pep could easily see that and adapt.
 

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:lol: That's a good way of putting it. Also you see ex players often saying the same stuff that fans are. So apparently only those individuals actually on the pitch at that particular time know anything. Seems convenient to me.
Yeah must be mate. Someone said earlier that football is as complicated as Quantum Mechanics, which could be true. Who knows maybe the likes of Sam Allardyce or Harry Redknapp could take to Physics like a duck to water.

People taking him saying “nothing” literally...

He is right.
So what did he mean then?

Fans only know a little? Fans know only a moderate amount? Fans know quite a lot but not as much as a coach and it's dependant on the individual?
 

stevoc

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I dont even know which camera to use, which angle to shoot from, and i sure as hell dont know how to direct my actors to act. I know when they're not acting well but i dont know the practical solutions.

I know smailing tends to have lapse of concentration, but i do not know what training method that i need to employ to rectify it. I know lukaku cant trap and keep the ball well, but how to make him better? Which training should i employ? What short term solution? Change our formation? What if i change the formation and the problem switched to shaw who can't cross? Or fellaini who cant seem to find lukaku for through ball?

I know hazard strenght and probably his weakness, but i dont know how to nulify him, the best i can come up with is stick a man to mark him all game, but pep could easily see that and adapt.
Good so you understand movies and football to a decent extent. Glad we agree mate.

I know smailing tends to have lapse of concentration, but i do not know what training method that i need to employ to rectify it. I know lukaku cant trap and keep the ball well, but how to make him better? Which training should i employ? What short term solution? Change our formation? What if i change the formation and the problem switched to shaw who can't cross? Or fellaini who cant seem to find lukaku for through ball?
You're in good company mate, Mourinho doesn't seem to know either.
 
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haram

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Yeah must be mate. Someone said earlier that football is as complicated as Quantum Mechanics, which could be true. Who knows maybe the likes of Sam Allardyce or Harry Redknapp could take to Physics like a duck to water.



So what did he mean then?

Fans only know a little? Fans know only a moderate amount? Fans know quite a lot but not as much as a coach and it's dependant on the individual?
Ask him.
 

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Fans can see issues for sure as they unfold. Where most fans would fall down on is implementing changes to fix these issues. We are great in hindsight - it's cutting out problems before they ever crop up is where we would fail in football - transfers and squad selection is a mere tip of the iceberg - and again all that is usually in hindsight.

It's to be expected, it would be like walking in off the street to a random job and crack it in a day.
Pretty much this.

I could well see that something was wrong when we lost 5-0 twice under AVB, but that doesn't mean I know how to coach a defensive line. But despite there being more to AVB and his tactics, commenting on playing Dawson and other slow defenders in a high line with minimal pressure on the ball is completely fair.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Football club is a long run investment. What seems like an eternity for fans is only a 5 year business cycle for glazers and ed.

What seems simple for us to say in forum (restructure, board sacking, replacing ed) aren't that simple in such a giant club. CEOs need to adapt as well, football men sometimes made the shittiest business decision and to be fair vice versa. Can you imagine gary neville making a transfer deal with agents and lawyers and made the smart decision better than ed?

It took bayern and germany 10 years to rebuild their squad on the go. Barcelona 2006 was started years before they bear fruit. Took saf 5 years to lay a solid foundation.

Fans know what's wrong. The problem is they think they know how to fix it.
Yeah so the fans do not know nothing. That they can identify what is wrong, in many cases, is itself evidence of their relevance in the matter.

Regarding actually solving the problems, I don't think fans actually believe they can sort things out. Nobody here feels they'd out perform the manager. They do point out solutions to individuals problems which may actually work. And they might. Like playing Martial on the left may improve the team as it has. Or dropping Rooney which it did.
 

haram

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Oh right so you don't actually know if he meant literally nothing or not, good to know.
No, Im not bothered to sit here and tell you exactly what he meant. Obviously he didn't mean literally, it doesn’t take much to understand that.
 

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Kolarov needs to realise that the entire sport is as exorbitantly funded as it is because of the fans who pay for everything. I'd back the tactical nous of some fans over some of the thicko football players I've seen over the years.
That still doesn't mean that football fans are knowledgeable for football. You can spend your good money on season tickets, stream subscriptions, football kits and you would still know much less than the average professional player. I beg to differ, I'd sooner trust the 'thicko' players over any fan, because they know what it's like to play for a club, how it feels to get boo-ed for every mistake, the pressures on the pitch, the training ground drills etc. As knowledgeable as a fan may be, he's still behind a keyboard, criticizing and analyzing statistics and highlight reels, they will never know the pressure of being on the pitch. Whether or not a player's salary is justified, however, is another question.
 

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He’s right of course when we come to discussing the detailed nuances of tactical sophistication; but he’s wrong if he means this to cover a broad assessment of team performance. All you need is a pulse and some semblance of brain activity to understand United play abhorrent football, and have little success.

Also, it has been said by greater men than I (SAF), that sometimes people over complicate football. Two different schools of thought. Your Guardiolas and Bielsa’s overhwelm players with strict tactical instructions for every zone of the pitch, in every phase of play. Whereas your Ferguson’s and Zidane’s are more motivators of people, and more likely to let players express themselves within more broad tactical guidelines.

I think what a lot of fans don’t understand, isn’t so much the chess game that happens on the pitch; but more the effect of training, dressing room dynamics, mental preparation and fatigue etc. Things you can only appreciate through direct experience.
 

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There is certain insight players have on certain that the general public will never have. Like what is like to play against certain players, what is like to play injured, what is like to play fatigued. what is like to play in front of hostile crowds, what is like to play at altitude,etc. Since they lived and breathed the game for most of their lives they have a wealth of experience that we do not have. But, even the players at the highest levels do not focus much on some of the nuances of the games. Remember the story during Van Gaal's time here where he would send players clips of mistakes they made in matches and he soon realized none of the players were watching the videos? Or the story of Emery handing a player from Sevilla a blank USB drive to prove that the player was not watching the videos he was giving him?
 

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Of course he's right. We have the same thing in video games, people can have spent their entire life playing but they generally know feck all about what is needed to make things actually work from a design perspective.

The worst people (in both cases) are always the ones with no professional experience, but who are convinced they're some genius because they 'studied' it (AKA read some articles on the internet).
 

stevoc

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No, Im not bothered to sit here and tell you exactly what he meant. Obviously he didn't mean literally, it doesn’t take much to understand that.
:lol: Not bothered, mate you obviously don't know what he meant. You won't say what he did mean because you know it would look silly as you're not a mind reader.
 

haram

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:lol: Not bothered, mate you obviously don't know what he meant. You won't say what he did mean because you know it would look silly as you're not a mind reader.
Does it make sense that fans LITERALLY know nothing? Exactly, it's not difficult to understand. People that are upset by this are being weird.
 

stevoc

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Does it make sense that fans LITERALLY know nothing? Exactly, it's not difficult to understand. People that are upset by this are being weird.
Of course it doesn't make sense to say that fans know nothing at all, but as we know some people get very pretentious about things.

Yeah most likely he didn't mean fans know literally nothing at all about football but who knows if he does actually believe that. Though if i was a pro footballer like him i would probably choose my words more carefully when making statements about his clubs fans right after a defeat. Especially if i played in Rome.

Also don't think i've actually seen anyone who's upset by this.
 

haram

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Of course it doesn't make sense to say that fans know nothing at all, but as we know some people get very pretentious about things.

Yeah most likely he didn't mean fans know literally nothing at all about football but who knows if he does actually believe that. Though if i was a pro footballer like him i would probably choose my words more carefully when making statements about his clubs fans right after a defeat. Especially if i played in Rome.

Also don't think i've actually seen anyone who's upset by this.
He literally gave an example of him watching tennis and basketball. Do you think he also thinks he himself knows NOTHING about those sports? If you watch a sport you obviously know something about it, it goes without saying.

Maybe upset is the wrong word.
 

DrRodo

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Wrong. The fans have often called out mistakes made by their club which the club (manager, board, CE etc) naturally felt were good decisions at the time when they took them. It happens all the time in football for the simple reason, which is escaping you, and is that managers despite being highly accomplished professionals in their respective field, are human being who are prone to making mistakes. And sometimes it doesn't take a professional to be able to spot them.

The hiring of David Moyes. Surely no layman can tell SAF and Gill that they're wrong?

The signing of Andy Carroll. Who were we to say that was a shit signing?

Alexis Sanchez. How could some fans suggest he was on the decline while everyone else was excited and Mourinho wanted him?

Real Madrid not signing a CF to replace Ronaldo.

Chelsea signing Bakayoko and Morata. Who are we to advise a manager who beat Pep and Mourinho to the PL title?

The list is probably endless. Also, you don't have to be able to out perform them to be able to spot wrong decisions they're making. That in itself doesn't make you capable of doing their job.

Also I do feel where Kolarov has a point is with respect to 'tactical advise'. Despite trying to understand as much as I can, I think it's very hard for us to truly know enough about the tactical side of the game.
If you tell a girl that a dress makes her look bad or fat, its not an advice, because saying "dont do this or that" is not offering a solution. Is just pointing at a problem

A real manager has to solve everyday issues and also get the results short and long term. We as fans wait in anger to things to solve magically "because i spotted that problem"

I would like to know how many winners look for answers in football forums, they dont. Can you imagine Messi doing that? "Oh no im losing pace, but i read in redcafe that now i can use my vision and passing skills to play as a n10 better, who wouldve had thought?"

The reality is that the majority of fans now feck all about a dressing room job. We dont know what happens in training ground except for what the club and media wants us to know, and were not in a position to claim we know better than the people at the clubs doing their jobs. Theyre not looking for advice from fans because most of us would suck as managers
 

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The odious City cnut needs to speak for himself. You don't need to be a genius to understand the very basics of football. Even uncle joe who shovels coal down in the coalmine knows that Mourinho isn't going to work out at United
 

el3mel

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The odious City cnut needs to speak for himself. You don't need to be a genius to understand the very basics of football. Even uncle joe who shovels coal down in the coalmine knows that Mourinho isn't going to work out at United
Struggling to find any sort of link between the quote and United.
 

amolbhatia50k

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If you tell a girl that a dress makes her look bad or fat, its not an advice, because saying "dont do this or that" is not offering a solution. Is just pointing at a problem

A real manager has to solve everyday issues and also get the results short and long term. We as fans wait in anger to things to solve magically "because i spotted that problem"

I would like to know how many winners look for answers in football forums, they dont. Can you imagine Messi doing that? "Oh no im losing pace, but i read in redcafe that now i can use my vision and passing skills to play as a n10 better, who wouldve had thought?"

The reality is that the majority of fans now feck all about a dressing room job. We dont know what happens in training ground except for what the club and media wants us to know, and were not in a position to claim we know better than the people at the clubs doing their jobs. Theyre not looking for advice from fans because most of us would suck as managers
None of that counters my post whatsoever.

If a poster mentions that we should sign Mane ahead of Depay then we'd be better off listening to that poster. That's a solution as well. Regardless, people who point out wrong decisions also clearly "know something". We'd be in a better had the club listened to fans who said that Moyes wasn't fit to manage this club, ahead of Sir Alex. It doesn't make them managers. I feel you're taking the whole "fans aren't managers" a bit too seriously. Nobody thinks they are so you're not really responding to an argument that exists.
 

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Struggling to find any sort of link between the quote and United.
What I meant to say is, thousands of fans around the world are seeing tactical mistakes being made by the manager (in United's case, Mourinho) and then this fecker comes and tells, "football fans know nothing about football..."
 

el3mel

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What I meant to say is, thousands of fans around the world are seeing tactical mistakes being made by the manager (in United's case, Mourinho) and then this fecker comes and tells, "football fans know nothing about football..."
And he's right. Football fans know the basics at best and their way of evaluating players are almost always different from managers'. Till you step into the pitch and knows how footbal tactics and training sessions work, they it's true we know anything bar the basics. You know this team plays possession based football, but you don't how to train on it effectively, the instructions for every player for it to work, and how to execute it on the pitch in such effective way. You know they are just controlling the ball.
 

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Football is not nearly as complicated as the people working in football pretend it to be. Also, when I watch a tennis player put himself out of position by playing a dumb angle, I'm perfectly capable of offering tactical advice. Being able to play football has very little to do with having knowledge of the game. I'm quite sure I can formulate a better tactical plan than Diego Maradona, but I'd probably struggle against him on a 1 on 1 court.
 

JeffBoomTetris

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And he's right. Football fans know the basics at best and their way of evaluating players are almost always different from managers'. Till you step into the pitch and knows how footbal tactics and training sessions work, they it's true we know anything bar the basics. You know this team plays possession based football, but you don't how to train on it effectively, the instructions for every player for it to work, and how to execute it on the pitch in such effective way. You know they are just controlling the ball.
It's true that fans don't understand enough to implement solutions like coaches as there are many factors that relate to successful tactics. But they know the basics.

And if they know the basics, they know something about football. This automatically rubbishes the claim, "Football fans know nothing about football..."
 

el3mel

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It's true that fans don't understand enough to implement solutions like coaches as there are many factors that relate to successful tactics. But they know the basics.

And if they know the basics, they know something about football. This automatically rubbishes the claim, "Football fans know nothing about football..."
He said in the quote he was talking about the ability of giving tactical advice. Tbf that's true, it happens a lot that we are happy with a certain lineup then it ends up not working at all and vice versa.
 

DrRodo

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None of that counters my post whatsoever.

If a poster mentions that we should sign Mane ahead of Depay then we'd be better off listening to that poster. That's a solution as well. Regardless, people who point out wrong decisions also clearly "know something". We'd be in a better had the club listened to fans who said that Moyes wasn't fit to manage this club, ahead of Sir Alex. It doesn't make them managers. I feel you're taking the whole "fans aren't managers" a bit too seriously. Nobody thinks they are so you're not really responding to an argument that exists.
Well then we are not totally disagreeing

Youre right that fans can have some knowledge and spot on problems (but i get the impression that 80% reactions around here are knee jerk and some are just lucky that things turned around a determined way, for example fans asking to sell a player e.g. Sanchez after a couple of months, then 'luckily' he hasnt picked up form after more than a year, because of whatever reason and our manager. Then they think theyre football geniuses?)

I still stand on my point that Kolarov is right and pro players and managers dont have any reason to ask for advice from fans