Kyle Walker: Spurs lacked the edge to win trophies

[Bear Attack]

50 mil for Kyle fecking Walker is truly a remarkable bit of business though.

But is Glaston really categorically refuting the idea that Walker left for the higher probability of winning a trophy? If Riyad Mahrez wanted away last summer, I'm sure money plays a big role but it would also increase his chances of winning a pot. It's not exactly mutually exclusive here.

 

[GlastonSpur]

It's meaningless because it didn't help you win anything and it didn't elevated your profile as a club either, you are still a selling club, a rich selling club like Dortmund but still a selling club. And for what it's worth Walker might not be a star player but you strengthened City.

I've already explained why the policy has not been meaningless. Besides, since Berbatov left we've finished in the top 4 several times - which might well not have happened had we sold Modric, Bale and others to top 4 rivals.

Yes, Walker improves City, which is why I said "largely" not strengthened rivals.

I'd say our profile has risen quite a lot in the last 9 years, and is set fair to rise further, but we shall see.

 

[Schmiznurf]

Care for a wager on that?

The odds would be too low to make it worth my while.

 

[GlastonSpur]

50 mil for Kyle fecking Walker is truly a remarkable bit of business though.

But is Glaston really categorically refuting the idea that Walker left for the higher probability of winning a trophy? If Riyad Mahrez wanted away last summer, I'm sure money plays a big role but it would also increase his chances of winning a pot. It's not exactly mutually exclusive here.

No, but I'm saying the bigger draw was higher wages. After all, we have finished ahead of City for the last 2 seasons.

 

[KN5]

Why? The current squad is largely sticking together and IMO we have 1 or 2 more gems that are already starting to come through. I'm thinking of Harry Winks for example, and a little further down the line Marcus Edwards.

With the other clubs around you spending big money, you can't expect Tottenham to not buy summer after summer and expect to stand up to us. Keep in mind, we're buying big talents, whilst you're losing players hoping to wait for the gems to give you a return. Unless your gems step up big time you won't win anything, again. There's almost no incentive to stay with Spurs, wages aren't good, no trophies, players want glory and money, you wouldn't go to the Spurs for either, based on the recent history anyway.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Obviously Levy is in control when it comes to deciding who will be sold (and who won't) and to whom and for how much. Spurs weren't forced into selling Walker - it was rationale choice to sell him given that Pochettino sanctioned the sale, that Walker was willing to leave and get higher wages, that's he's not key to the way we play, that we already have Trippier (and the promising Kyle Walker-Peters) and were offered a world-record fee for a defender.

Lol this is amazing, a namesake replacement. Has this ever happened before in football?

 

[JPRouve]

No, but I'm saying the bigger draw was higher wages. After all, we have finished ahead of City for the last 2 seasons.

This might be the problem though, finishing above someone while not winning the competition is not a bragging argument for clubs like Chelsea, City or United. When they don't win, they are upset, that's the edge.

 

[GlastonSpur]

With the other clubs around you spending big money, you can't expect Tottenham to not buy summer after summer and expect to stand up to us. Keep in mind, we're buying big talents, whilst you're losing players hoping to wait for the gems to give you a return. Unless your gems step up big time you won't win anything, again. There's almost no incentive to stay with Spurs, wages aren't good, no trophies, players want glory and money, you wouldn't go to the Spurs for either, based on the recent history anyway.

We do buy - Wanyama last summer for example, or Son, Alderweireld and Trippier the summer before that. Just because they weren't "big names" or mega-expensive doesn't mean they weren't much good. They've all been excellent for us - Alderweireld for instance is perhaps now the best CB in the Prem.

Nor have we been - Walker excepted - losing players. And some of our "gems" are already starting to give us a return (Harry Winks last season I'd say).

The thing is that every summer I keep getting told about these "big talents" that our rivals are signing, how Spurs are going to be left for dust and about some imminent mass exodus of our best players .... but the good ship Spurs sails serenely on regardless.

Will this season be any different? Who knows. But we have a strong first XI that won't be easily shoved aside.

 

[GlastonSpur]

This might be the problem though, finishing above someone while not winning the competition is not a bragging argument for clubs like Chelsea, City or United. When they don't win, they are upset, that's the edge.

I'm not bragging about it, simply pointing it out.

You've mentioned another great footballing myth, namely that certain clubs have more ambition and desire to win than others. They don't. They have just have more money to throw at the problem.

Spurs are as ambitious as any other club and get just as upset when things fall short. It's pure elitist delusion to imagine otherwise.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Further to my above post #209, this is what Pochettinto has said recently:

" ... the big sides are investing a lot of money in trying to improve their squads, but for us we are so calm and so quiet because we have belief in our youth from our academy.
We may lack a few players, but we are so calm because I think we have a very good team and the most important thing for us always is the team.

... it is true we have a different philosophy, it is not because we cannot invest, but Tottenham have built a different philosophy than the other big clubs ..."

 

[Akshay]

Sounds like Arsenal under Wenger.

 

[NK86]

No it isn't. Walker probably wouldn't have moved if it was a Chinese club paying the same wages. So it is ambition too.

That's being ridiculous. Man City attracted top players even when they were a nothing club. Same goes for PSG. You are deluded if you want to compare Chinese League with the PL. The last couple of seasons neither City nor Spurs have come close to winning anything. So wages play a huge part. You think he would move for pennies to Leicester last season?

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not bragging about it, simply pointing it out.

You've mentioned another great footballing myth, namely that certain clubs have more ambition and desire to win than others. They don't. They have just have more money to throw at the problem.

Spurs are as ambitious as any other club and get just as upset when things fall short. It's pure elitist delusion to imagine otherwise.

So you don't think that clubs have different expectations when a season starts, you genuinely think that every clubs expect to win and are upset if they don't? You are yourself using a myth, not every clubs have the same ambition, clubs have ambitions that match their means.

 

[djdhrubs]

I'm not bragging about it, simply pointing it out.

You've mentioned another great footballing myth, namely that certain clubs have more ambition and desire to win than others. They don't. They have just have more money to throw at the problem.

Spurs are as ambitious as any other club and get just as upset when things fall short. It's pure elitist delusion to imagine otherwise.

Not just ambition, but more expectation to win and a different level of pressure on the player/ manager/ club as a whole. That's the difference.

 

[djdhrubs]

Further to my above post #209, this is what Pochettinto has said recently:

" ... the big sides are investing a lot of money in trying to improve their squads, but for us we are so calm and so quiet because we have belief in our youth from our academy.
We may lack a few players, but we are so calm because I think we have a very good team and the most important thing for us always is the team.

... it is true we have a different philosophy, it is not because we cannot invest, but Tottenham have built a different philosophy than the other big clubs ..."

They have to have don't they? The philosophy has chosen Spurs rather than the other way round. They have to live within their means. If they had more means, they would be adopting a very different philosophy because they'd actually have a choice.

 

[djdhrubs]

So you don't think that clubs have different expectations when a season starts, you genuinely think that every clubs expect to win and are upset if they don't? You are yourself using a myth, not every clubs have the same ambition, clubs have ambitions that match their means.

Precisely.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

If I was Spurs I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. £50m for walker? What a mugging

Yeah I actually rate Trippier higher than Walker.

 

[SwansonsTache]

Spurs have made a killing here, £50m for Walker is madness even in this climate and truly puts the Pogba deal into perspective.

Slightly confused by him being willing to leave before he got the chance to play in their mesmerizing, unique and unrivaled new stadium though, they got 3D tours and fully automated sprinklers and everything.

 

[Wade3]

I've already explained why the policy has not been meaningless. Besides, since Berbatov left we've finished in the top 4 several times - which might well not have happened had we sold Modric, Bale and others to top 4 rivals.

Yes, Walker improves City, which is why I said "largely" not strengthened rivals.

I'd say our profile has risen quite a lot in the last 9 years, and is set fair to rise further, but we shall see.

In order for your profile to rise, you're gonna have to win a meaningful domestic trophy and/or perform better in European competitions. The last part in particular is really preventing your club from being considered on the same level as a club like Dortmund.

 

[themoyesboy]

Spurs have made a killing here, £50m for Walker is madness even in this climate and truly puts the Pogba deal into perspective.

Slightly confused by him being willing to leave before he got the chance to play in their mesmerizing, unique and unrivaled new stadium though, they got 3D tours and fully automated sprinklers and everything.

I like Walker a lot and think he'll do very well for them unfortunately. I'd have loved for us to sign him even for £50m. He's a PITA to come up against, he drives forward at every opportunity with pace, and he works tirelessly for 90 minutes. Defensively he's not perfect, but I think all of his other attributes more than make up for it. Mourinho would have loved him.

 

[BusbyMalone]

I see, so which star player have we sold to a Prem rival in the last 9 years? Or has the cat got your tongue?

How much of that is to do with the star players that you have actually sold not wanting to go to a premier league rival? As opposed to Spurs putting their foot down and refusing to sell to said rival.

Despite the interest from Man Utd in Bale, he was only ever going to Madrid because that's where he wanted to go. Not because Spurs refused to sell him to us.

 

[Schmiznurf]

Spurs have made a killing here, £50m for Walker is madness even in this climate and truly puts the Pogba deal into perspective.

Slightly confused by him being willing to leave before he got the chance to play in their mesmerizing, unique and unrivaled new stadium though, they got 3D tours and fully automated sprinklers and everything.

It's ok, he'll buy a stadium tour ticket, only £150 for 30 minutes, price set by Levy.

 

[GlastonSpur]

So you don't think that clubs have different expectations when a season starts, you genuinely think that every clubs expect to win and are upset if they don't? You are yourself using a myth, not every clubs have the same ambition, clubs have ambitions that match their means.

Ambition is one thing, expectation is something else - they are not the same. The top 6 clubs (and others) all have an equal ambition to win the league, but they don't all equally expect to win the league.

However, do you think United expect to win the league this season more than Spurs do? I don't.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

The odds would be too low to make it worth my while.

How do you know what odds I'd offer?
Would you not rather take cash off a Citeh fan than a faceless corporate bookmaker as you're so sure you're right?

 

[JPRouve]

Ambition is one thing, expectation is something else - they are not the same. The top 6 clubs (and others) all have an equal ambition to win the league, but they don't all equally expect to win the league.

However, do you think United expect to win the league this season more than Spurs do? I don't.

I don't either and that's why I wouldn't be surprised if a player choose to stay at Tottenham, unless if he thinks that he is the difference between winning and competing or if United offers him a lot of money.

 

[Schmiznurf]

How do you know what odds I'd offer?
Would you not rather take cash off a Citeh fan than a faceless corporate bookmaker as you're so sure you're right?

Go on then, what odds would you offer on City not winning a damn thing?

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Go on then, what odds would you offer on City not winning a damn thing?

William Hill price or Even Money whichever is the higher.

 

[GlastonSpur]

They have to have don't they? The philosophy has chosen Spurs rather than the other way round. They have to live within their means. If they had more means, they would be adopting a very different philosophy because they'd actually have a choice.

Not really. Spurs have chosen to build a new stadium and a new training centre and to invest more than previously in our academy/youth set-up. This choice requires that we choose a philosophy to match, even if it does also rule out certain other philosophies ... if you can call cheque-book management a philosophy.

So yes, our choice of philosophies becomes more limited, but only largely because of the previous choices we've made.

And because it's worked well for us, I would imagine that Spurs will stick with it to a large extent even after the new stadium is finished and our income starts to rise.

 

[Ramshock]

Standard new signing speil. Id still take Spurs to beat City two out of three games at the minute.

 

[Random Task]

Not really. Spurs have chosen to build a new stadium and a new training centre and to invest more than previously in out academy/youth set-up. This choice requires that we choose a philosophy to match, even if it does also rule out certain other philosophies ... if you can call cheque-book management a philosophy.

So yes, our choice of philosophies becomes more limited, but only largely because of the previous choices we've made.

And because it's worked well for us, I would imagine that Spurs will stick with it to a large extent even after the new stadium is finished and our income starts to rise.

Unless of course Spurs get taken over by a sugar daddy owner whom will rip up and replace said transfer policy

You can call it a philosophy until you're blue in the face, but in reality Spurs' transfer policy is enforced upon them due to a distinct lack of funds, much like 95% of football clubs around thew world.

 

[GlastonSpur]

How much of that is to do with the star players that you have actually sold not wanting to go to a premier league rival? As opposed to Spurs putting their foot down and refusing to sell to said rival.

Despite the interest from Man Utd in Bale, he was only ever going to Madrid because that's where he wanted to go. Not because Spurs refused to sell him to us.

And Modric? He would have gone to Chelsea if we'd accepted their offer. And United were very interested too.

I've heard various people try and "explain away" what's happened - but 9 years is a long time to explain away. I have not only the evidence of those 9 years, but also relayed info. from knowledgeable people with connections to the club that - post-Berbatov - Levy said "never again".

 

[Schmiznurf]

William Hill price or Even Money whichever is the higher.

Get the william hill odds and i'll see how much I could make.

 

[Mindhunter]

That's being ridiculous. Man City attracted top players even when they were a nothing club. Same goes for PSG. You are deluded if you want to compare Chinese League with the PL. The last couple of seasons neither City nor Spurs have come close to winning anything. So wages play a huge part. You think he would move for pennies to Leicester last season?

I am being ridiculous?

Are you suggesting that Man City isn't a step-up from Spurs? If yes, then you are deluded. Man City has won the league recently, have Spurs? There is a considerably higher probability of winning something at City than an Spurs. How is that so difficult to understand?

 

[Ramshock]

No, but I'm saying the bigger draw was higher wages. After all, we have finished ahead of City for the last 2 seasons.

Its hard to disagree with Glaston in this thread . It boils down to Walker thinking theres a much bigger scope to win trophies at City than at Spurs even though Spurs have been the better side last two years. However the reality is its more likely the huge pay rise thats influenced the move.

 

[vadimivich]

The illusion that Spurs are "poor" or "don't have money to spend / don't spend money" is a bit ridiculous, but you see it spouted by both Spurs fans and rivals as if it was some sort of written in stone truth.

Spurs have the 12th highest revenue globally and pay the 11th highest wages. There's only about 10 football clubs in the world that have more and spend more money than Spurs. By any and all measures, Spurs are an extremely rich football club. What Spurs have to do now is to find a way to bridge the gap between where they are and that top 10 (it's about €130m in revenue, minimum). And when / if they do, there's no question that Spurs will spend that money to compete as well.

 

[JPRouve]

The illusion that Spurs are "poor" or "don't have money to spend / don't spend money" is a bit ridiculous, but you see it spouted by both Spurs fans and rivals as if it was some sort of written in stone truth.

Spurs have the 12th highest revenue globally and pay the 11th highest wages. There's only about 10 football clubs in the world that have more and spend more money than Spurs. By any and all measures, Spurs are an extremely rich football club. What Spurs have to do now is to find a way to bridge the gap between where they are and that top 10 (it's about €130m in revenue, minimum). And when / if they do, there's no question that Spurs will spend that money to compete as well.

I was going to add that. Tottenham aren't the richest club but they are rich, so using that for or against them isn't really a good point.

 

[hellohello]

Outside of Bale and recently Kane-Alli which star players played for Tottenham in the last 9 years? Robbie Keane?

Modric, not sure if I would include Alli yet personally.

 

[adexkola]

No, but I'm saying the bigger draw was higher wages. After all, we have finished ahead of City for the last 2 seasons.

Good point.

 

[thegregster]

The illusion that Spurs are "poor" or "don't have money to spend / don't spend money" is a bit ridiculous, but you see it spouted by both Spurs fans and rivals as if it was some sort of written in stone truth.

Spurs have the 12th highest revenue globally and pay the 11th highest wages. There's only about 10 football clubs in the world that have more and spend more money than Spurs. By any and all measures, Spurs are an extremely rich football club. What Spurs have to do now is to find a way to bridge the gap between where they are and that top 10 (it's about €130m in revenue, minimum). And when / if they do, there's no question that Spurs will spend that money to compete as well.

Agreed. If it wasn't for the oil money they would be in the top 3 in PL in terms of revenue.

That said they were poorly run in the 80s and 90s. Levy has had to sort out a lot of problems.

 

[0161_UNITED]

Its hard to disagree with Glaston in this thread . It boils down to Walker thinking theres a much bigger scope to win trophies at City than at Spurs even though Spurs have been the better side last two years. However the reality is its more likely the huge pay rise thats influenced the move.

Yup. Walker isn't a watershed moment for Spurs at all. Since Berbs, Modric and Bale, they haven't had a significant player "force" his way out, IMO. By "force" I mean a player they'd want to keep but wants to go. And that's a credit to Spurs. Flip side is that even though it's rare, it can and most likely will happen again. Extracting a player from them who isn't interested in leaving that they want to keep is going be tough sledding. Extracting a player that wants to leave is a whole new ball game. All signs point to Walker wanting a pay raise, and Spurs happy to pocket the cash since they've got Trippier.