Messi was better.
Kylian Mbappe | PSG
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I think it is primarily his off the ball movement and finishing that improved. His through balls and especially free kicks are also much better nowadays than they used to be during his prime and earlier. But what really impresses is the timing and positioning when attacking. He manages to finish off the attacks he initiated himself incredibly often although he runs less metres than any other player on the pitch. His reading of the game was probably the biggest leverage.
Reading threads like this I start to agree with friends of mine saying Messi is underrated. He was a significantly better player than Mbappe at 20, and a much more mature one. But then, being compared to the greatest of all time is something Mbappe can be proud of.
I believe he’s truly brilliant and I also have a soft spot for Mbappe since I was talking about him (thank you FM and the fact I follow Monaco) while before the hype he got, but there’s still areas he has to improve to become consistently top3 in the world - mainly in terms of decision making. I think he’s the biggest talent in last 10 years and we probably won’t see anyone with such potential in next decade either.
I believe he’s truly brilliant and I also have a soft spot for Mbappe since I was talking about him (thank you FM and the fact I follow Monaco) while before the hype he got, but there’s still areas he has to improve to become consistently top3 in the world - mainly in terms of decision making. I think he’s the biggest talent in last 10 years and we probably won’t see anyone with such potential in next decade either.
Sancho is already looking to have that type of potential and he is a year and half younger.
Nah, he had issues with decision making as well. It's just that he was so good it didn't matter most of the time. Same as R9 really
Oh, and, people saying Mbappé isn't a tremendous dribbler like Cristiano used to be should have a better look. Just because he relies on his frankly unfair first step instead of doing dummies and feints and doesn't keep the ball glued to his feet doesn't mean he isn't a devastating dribbler. In open space he's unstoppable and in tight areas still gets out with the ball more often than not
We played class in that game to be fair. 3 soft goals done us in. Bit of a freak result, but United never got results at Stamford Bridge. Even our best teams got done over by them.
He just wasn't.
That is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that you mention "i'm a huge fan of Mbappé" doesn't give more credit to your absurd assertion.
"I'm a huge fan but i think he already peaked at 19". We all know you'd say anything to make Ronaldo look better but this doesn't make any sense. Who are you to know Mbappé's margin of progression? He has passing skills that Ronaldo never had, even now, he still has a LOT to improve in his scoring decision making, a lot to learn about the game. He can dribble, he just doesn't do it as much because it's easier for him to get rid of opponents with his speed.
Couldn't agree more, it's funny but there's been a lot of people trying to downplay what they see with the kid because he plays in France (ignoring what he's done in the CL or at international level which blows away anything CR7 or Messi have done at that age). Even after his very first professional season, some on here were saying that he was already as good as he would be because his decision making and finishing but everything you listed he keeps improving on and still has a lot of progress ahead of him, we already see this season he's a better player than he was even 6 months ago.
The worst part being that he already displayed many exemples of his talent besides speed.
Try to find me a video of ronaldo in a crucial game like a wc semi final giving a pass the way mbappe did to Giroud against Belgium.it simply never happened. Never.
Balanceunautrejoint (lol) said that he saw flaws that can't be corrected, that's absurd. The only things that you can rarely fix with work in football are mental abilities, Vista and physical gifts (like natural acceleration). And mbappe is a freak of nature when it comes to mental or physical abilities (like Cristiano,that's why he's imo a better player than Messi) and he also has the Vista.
Everything else can be improved with hard work and mbappe flaws actually fall in this category. Scoring decision making, shooting and passing accuracy, free kicks etc. Are all things you improve over time if you work hard enough, and we all know he does.
Suggesting that he already peaked at age 19 is one of the stupidest thing I've read in a while.
Now let's not get carried away. The only area in which Mbappe outshines Messi at the same age is goal scoring which is his one standout characteristic. But Messi was never primarily about goal scoring, what impressed the most when he entered the scene was his dribbling ability and technique. That he was a great passer wasn't even recognized back then. Messi and CR7 were game changers in a way since they were the first players in a long while (probably since Zico if you take R9 out of the equation during his very short peak) who were conisdered both the best player and the best goal scorer of their teams. Before that, you had partnerships like Ronaldinho and Eto'o or Zidane and van Nistelrooy in which the one consistently and comfortably outscored the other but was still commonly considered the lesser player. It is different since Messi and Cristiano found their scoring boots. Since then, every player is rated based on his goal account. But you won't do Cristiano and especially Messi justice if you compare theirs to Mbappe's since wingers simply didn't score that much before the two proved otherwise. Once you look at the whole picture - dribbling, passing, decision making, awareness, etc. - there are very few arguments in favour of Kylian.
Anyway, that's an unfair comparison because Messi and even more so Ronaldo (R9) were true prodigies. The type of talent you knew would eventually conquer the world right after seeing them for the first time. I agree that Mbappe is better than Cristiano at the same age since he made the biggest step aged 21 or so, but the Portuguese always had much, much more potential. Cristiano was the kind of player who was obvious to have incredible talent, yet he was so raw that he couldn't fully utilize it and the very moment he learned that, he became an absolute force of nature and one of the best players to ever grace a football pitch. Mbappe is a different story. He scores, yes, but he never displayed the same insane amount of quality on the ball that Messi and Cristiano did. Let's not even talk about R9.
Anyway, that's an unfair comparison because Messi and even more so Ronaldo (R9) were true prodigies. The type of talent you knew would eventually conquer the world right after seeing them for the first time. I agree that Mbappe is better than Cristiano at the same age since he made the biggest step aged 21 or so, but the Portuguese always had much, much more potential. Cristiano was the kind of player who was obvious to have incredible talent, yet he was so raw that he couldn't fully utilize it and the very moment he learned that, he became an absolute force of nature and one of the best players to ever grace a football pitch. Mbappe is a different story. He scores, yes, but he never displayed the same insane amount of quality on the ball that Messi and Cristiano did. Let's not even talk about R9.
Which of course doesn't mean anything at all since he could flame out tomorrow. Let's talk once he's done playing. The likelihood he will ever be as good as CR7 or Messi is very low.
What? Mbappé is 20 years old, how on Earth can you say he is at his physical peak or he will not improve much on decision making? Yes I like Ronaldo, but no Ronaldo in 2006 wasn't better than Mbappé is now.
In 2 years we will see, of course as far Mbappé is doing these things at PSG he will never get the credit he deserves, but so far he has been at least as impressive than Ronaldo or Messi with the same age. Lets see how he does when he leaves France.
On the other side of the argumentation between Rooney and Ronaldo I agree with you, I think there is a overreaction implying that Rooney in 2004 was way better than Ronaldo, they just played differently imo.
That's simply not true. Mbappe is actually far above Messi, R9 and CR7 at 20 in terms of assists as well. He can improve his passing but showed several time that he had good vista and i don't see what games you watched back in 2006-2007 that told you at the time that Messi had better passing skills. I've seen Mbappé do outside of the foot passes that those 3 legends only dreamed of at that age. Messi embraced this playmaker rôle when he was far older, not at 20 when he was mainly an atttacker. Same thing goes for Neymar, he always had good passing skills but for a couple of years he has developped this aspect of his game tremendously to become, imo, the best passer in the world (unpopular opinion here since most people hate Neymar on redcaf but in my mind, Neymar's as the best passing ability in the world).
So basically, the fact that Mbappé is less raw at 20 than CR7 would mean that he doesn't have the same potential? How does it prove anything? It only proves Mbappe is already more mature, not that he has a lowest ceiling.
It seems that your analysis is based on highlights or only on few games, it's obviously insufficient.
Yes there's nothing that tells us Mbappé will end up greater than Ronaldo/Messi, but we can only compare a 20yo Mbappé to another 20 yo player.
Why is it very low may I ask.
For obvious reasons - they are two of the greatest players ever. McBappe is. 20 year old kid with his entire career ahead of him where we literally don’t know what is going to happen over the next 10-15 years.
The "very" is exaggerated in my opinion. Obviously we don't know what the future holds but he seems to have solid grounds to walk that path, including his very strong work ethics. Low is far enough.
There is every chance that the best 20 year old we've seen in 2 decades will go down as one of the greatest players ever. That's what tends to happen. Of course something bad could happen as in anything the risks are real.
in this thread : mbappe far better than fat ronaldo, messi
we are approaching peak mbappe
we are approaching peak mbappe
You don't get some special award for being a good 20 year old. He has to actually do it for the next 10-15 years to be seriously uttered in the same sentence as CR7 and Messi.
Fair enough.Sorry I just couldn’t resist
Of course he has to but you can't act like the chance he will is low.
Its definitely low given that he would be attempting to be on par with two of greatest ever who have had sustained success for well over a decade.
If I understand Raoul's point, he is simply saying that when you reach Messi-Ronaldo tier, only hindsight is useful since what allowed these players to reach that level is their ability to sustain an incredible level for a long time. In the case of Ronaldo there is also the fact that he tweaked his game dramatically which isn't a given.
Already done too much at the highest levels to "flame out". Multiple title winner, world cup, CL top scorer all before 20. He's as sure thing as Phil Jones picking up a "knock" and being out for 6 weeks
Maybe he'll one day be as good as Henry.
I don’t know where the theory that CR7 was this freak of natural talent when he was young and how he was destined to become one of the best players in the world came from. CR7 was a talented, tricky, young player who made his name being a flashy player without a ton of substance behind it. I don’t think anyone outside of Portugal (after they realized he'd be better than Quaresma) and maybe Manchester United (after they realized he'd be better than Rooney) ever thought he would become the second best player in the world.
For me, CR7 is one of the biggest examples of how someone can surprise you with their hard work because there was no indication that he would turn out to be the player he became based on his talent. Anyone who wants to act like they knew it all along, I’m not taking seriously because there was no indication whatsoever. He was always going to be a good player, but there were countless of other players that looked just as talented, if not more, and played with a similar style and flaws. It’s a great indication that hard work and strong mentality plays a huge part in success over just pure raw talent. This is why I’m confident Mbappe will become the best player in the world at some point in his career, in the not-so-distant future. He has a mentality that’s psychotic to the same level of CR7, Jordan, or Kobe Bryant. I think CR7 and Messi pushed the boundaries of what we thought was possible in terms of output over a season. Sometimes, you just need an outlier (or two in this case) to show you what's possible and soon enough there are others who can reach what was once thought impossible to, and I think Mbappe will be the first since them to be in their area code when it comes to the 50+ goals/season consistently, no matter what league he'll play in (most likely in Spain).
For me, CR7 is one of the biggest examples of how someone can surprise you with their hard work because there was no indication that he would turn out to be the player he became based on his talent. Anyone who wants to act like they knew it all along, I’m not taking seriously because there was no indication whatsoever. He was always going to be a good player, but there were countless of other players that looked just as talented, if not more, and played with a similar style and flaws. It’s a great indication that hard work and strong mentality plays a huge part in success over just pure raw talent. This is why I’m confident Mbappe will become the best player in the world at some point in his career, in the not-so-distant future. He has a mentality that’s psychotic to the same level of CR7, Jordan, or Kobe Bryant. I think CR7 and Messi pushed the boundaries of what we thought was possible in terms of output over a season. Sometimes, you just need an outlier (or two in this case) to show you what's possible and soon enough there are others who can reach what was once thought impossible to, and I think Mbappe will be the first since them to be in their area code when it comes to the 50+ goals/season consistently, no matter what league he'll play in (most likely in Spain).
Henderson?
It has to do a ot with mentality and staying injury free. Pato looked like an alien at 18 at milan. Then his body broke down and that was that
Completely unrelated to the discussion, but I will forever call him McBappé from now on
Completely unrelated to the discussion, but I will forever call him McBappé from now on
No, Pickford.
Messi at 20, 46 games 41 goals,
C ronaldo at 20, 49 games 12 goals
20 years old Messi wasn't better than 20 years old Ronaldo????
Can only speak for Germany but ever since Euro 2004, Cristiano was definitely considered a standout talent. I remember that anyone in my team started copying his moves and even his hairstyle etc. Rooney on the other hand never had this reputation. Robben and Robinho were generally seen in the same tier but they were never even close to his popularity. You'd belaughed at if you'dsuggested Rooney is greater prospect, even in 2006. When they had their famous fight, it wasn't even considered a question who United should side with if they are clever.
So yeah, he had that level of hype, at least in Germany.
its semantics but i could agree that its a low chance mbappe ever reaches the pinnacle of messi or ronaldo, given, well, they're the best. but very low? thats pushing it. he has the best chance of the current generation. it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if he does become as good as ronaldo tbh. this kid is special.
Copying his moves? What moves are we talking about? Step-overs? The chop? I wouldn't call any of those his moves but the hairstyle, I get. But what you're mainly talking about is popularity, not actual talent evaluation. In 2006, you're not talking about prospects anymore, that conversation was in 2004 where they both pretty much broke out to the eyes of the world at the Euro. From that point until 2006-07 is when I'm saying Rooney was seen as the bigger prospect, at least by most people. Not the bigger star, not the flashiest, but simply the better, more efficient, more skilled (not in tricks and flicks but in overall game, passing, vision, etc) player out of the two.
That's my only point, I'm not discussing hype or popularity, but just this ridiculous notion that CR7 was this outstanding talent that everyone said would just be a matter of time until he was the best in the world. I remember that conversation about Messi or R9, and now Mbappe but not CR7. Obviously it doesn't mean anything as we see now 10 years on from their breakout seasons, but this revisionism of the talent level of CR7 is simply false, and if anything it takes away from just how much work he put in to go beyond the expectations the vast majority had of him as a player.
I can understand people being skeptical, because we are talking about two anomalies of football but that's just what it is, Mbappe (or Mcbappe) has the best chance out there and I wouldn't be surprised either. He's ahead of them in the CL at the same age by some margin, and has already accomplished things on the world cup stage that they have never (and probably never will) match, I'm not even talking about winning the world cup (because that's a team effort) but scoring goals in knock-out games, which neither of the two legends have ever done in their career (which is pretty shocking, to be fair to them).
Sounds like a special in a French McDonald's.Completely unrelated to the discussion, but I will forever call him McBappé from now on